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Lumosity
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Lumosity

  #31 (permalink)
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"Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time -- a tremendous whack." - Churchill

This is what I was harping about - lets get some simplicity here. Working Memory (WM) and its relationship to IQ (as defined and measured on the standardized test) versus (F&CI) Fluid & Crystallized Intelligence.

Jaeggi herself has, on several occasions clearly delineated these differences, and also clearly stated that the focus of n-dualback was WM, and not F&CI.

And since WM impacted the standardized IQ test directly, it was there that the results would be reflected. Her training has indeed shown that brain games (simple ones and the more sophisticated n-dual ones) focus on WM and therefore IQ. It is not a direct focus on F&CI, and that effects on F&CI are indirect but likely, as a logical result of increased overall brain activity.

Study: Working memory training can improve fluid intelligence | SharpBrains
Can intelligence be boosted by a simple task? For some… | Not Exactly Rocket Science | Discover Magazine

Their research also shows that FI by itself may contribute to IQ but may not be linked with WM's effect on IQ, and that FI & CI are indeed 2 different animals themselves. Obviously, there is a lot of common ground here. The thing to note is that WM and F&CI have been clearly identified separately.

This is clearly a very logical thing to say. As I mentioned in my previous posts, it is important to delineate what one is interested in (as a trader and as a human being). Is it just WM and IQ or is it also F&CI?

Here is very enlightening paragraph on these subtle but huge differences - (Ref: Andrea Kuszewski @ SciAm)

"First of all, let me explain what I mean when I say the word "intelligence". To be clear, I’m not just talking about increasing the volume of facts or bits of knowledge you can accumulate, or what is referred to as crystallized intelligence—this isn’t fluency or memorization training—it’s almost the opposite, actually. I’m talking about increasing your fluid intelligence, or your capacity to learn new information, retain it, then use that new knowledge as a foundation to solve the next problem, or learn the next new skill, and so on.

Now, while working memory is not synonymous with intelligence, working memory correlates with intelligence to a large degree. In order to generate successfully intelligent output, a good working memory is pretty important. So to make the most of your intelligence, improving your working memory will help this significantly—like using the very best and latest parts to help a machine to perform at its peak."


I subscribe to this view, and it is this sort of F&CI that I am more interested in. Not just plain ole IQ (having had 2 IQ tests at 16 and 34, along with 2 Myers Briggs profiles). As a trader (for me) WM and IQ are important. But F&CI are critical. There is enough material to say that structured improvement in one brings improvements in the other. So it's obviously beneficial to involve oneself in a credible n-dualback program to improve WM and IQ. What I understand (so far), is that neuroplasticity should encompass more of F&CI rather than WM & IQ alone.

Not only that, I also think (having a little bit of familiarity with Bayesian Inferences) that Bayesian thought is what the SciAm article is referring to, in the context of learning new tricks, assimilating and using them effectively. THIS gets the trader in me excited.

And 2 for the miscreants -
Firstly, supporting the view that multitasking is not an asset (in my own view its a very bad thing for trading)
The Overflowing Brain: Most Important Book of 2008 | SharpBrains

And secondly, brain games except some specific ones are pointless -
Brain-training games get a D at brain-training tests | Not Exactly Rocket Science | Discover Magazine

"The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them" - William Clayton


PS - I should include this, since IQ is commonly referred to as a measure of intelligence, a common question should come up - what is the difference in FI and Iinteeligence, and why aren't they the same thing? Well, yes they are............., but no they are not.. Curiously, I have never been able to turn the girl both ways.....until now (occasionally)....am I going crazy with all this brain voodoo?


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Last edited by Deucalion; April 14th, 2012 at 06:24 AM.
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  #32 (permalink)
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Damn you, @Deucalion. I started writing about this last night and was about to finish it now, but I see little point in it now.

I've posted the free Brain Workshop - a Dual N-Back game earlier in the thread, and that links to a few articles and papers. This whole industry is basically based on Jaeggi's paper.

I find myself a little turned off by the posting of Lumosity scores. It really goes against the nature of this concept. For me it is more about personal insight and control, not about showing off to others. I use Lumosity as a toy. I like some of the memory games, much like I enjoy solving crosswords or Sudoku puzzles. Lumosity also includes a Dual N-Back game, of course, but I find the free one to be better.

Dual N-Back exercises are quite hard, and I sometimes use a memory game at Lumosity to help me regain my focus -- not as at tool to improve my intelligence. I can play a memory and/or attention game if I feel my attention starts to wander off, but I can't easily do a quick Dual N-Back game. That defeats the purpose.

I guess I could have just as easily arranged a deck of cards in rows and tried to find pairs or sets of four of a kind. My desk is just simply not big enough!

Another thing to remember is that one can train one's brain in other ways, as well. I love philosophy and mathematics. Constantly mulling over an abstract concept until one get it also influences one's ability to think wide and deep. I have OCD, and constantly training my working memory decreases my symptoms. Thus, my motivation probably differs from someone simply trying to become more intelligent. I like to think that I'm quite intelligent, but my OCD makes my IQ score fluctuate about 20-30 points. Therefore I become smarter simply by relieving symptoms, regardless of whether the training actually increases my IQ. Truth be told, I don't really like the concept of IQ. Numbers and games are meaningless if one can't use it to accomplish things. The motivation must be to drive humanity further by constantly improving technology and social structures. Alas, I'm quite skeptical about human kind actually accomplishing this. Thankfully I can apply my skills to trading and buy back my freedom from this hellhole of a world!

I agree with the title of Klingberg's book. Information overload is why I'm retiring my online presence soon. I thought I would've been able to do it already, but, with the with the public interest in both LSD and neuroplasticity, I had to postpone it a bit. I can feel my brain deteriorating by participating on online message boards. It's not good for my attention to constantly check for updates and jump from one subject to another. I've always enjoyed thinking deeply about things, but now I'm constantly bombarded with information. I am one of those "freaks" that hate Facebook, cell phones and TV programs with commercials (don't we all), as I feel they derail my train of thought.

Keep in mind that Klingberg is the founder of Cogmed (Cogmed Working Memory Training | Torkel Klingberg, M.D. Ph.D.). He has some interesting papers at Klingberg lab. Cogmed is rather pricey, and I have my doubts of its effectiveness compared to other options.

I have exams coming up, and therefore I must excuse myself from further participation on this message board -- at least for a while. It seems you have a good handle on this now; I'm actually a little envious. I remember when I first started to look into it, it redefined my whole perception of myself and my surroundings. I'm quite anxious to hear about your progress. Feel free to PM me...

By the way, please stop bringing up Bayesian inference; there is absolutely no connection to trading...

P.S. I've always been able to have her turn both ways -- just like in real life...


Last edited by Lornz; April 14th, 2012 at 07:27 AM.
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Lornz View Post
I find myself a little turned off by the posting of Lumosity scores.

Is that why in your second post to this thread you wrote:


Lornz View Post
Haha, my BPI > 1500....

But seriously, "score" is just a means of keeping track. You could say the same thing about money. Having more of it does not mean you are happier or a better person.

Today is day 3 for me, and I am enjoying it very much.

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  #34 (permalink)
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Updates on my n-backing experiment.
After a few days of dual 3-backing (position and color) and scoring about 70 to 80% level, I am experiencing incredibly lucid dreams. When I wake up, I remember all my dreams with details clearly (3 dreams usually... maybe because I 3 back? ). This has never happened to me before.
I'm not crazy about this 'side effect'... I'd prefer waking up and not remembering anything.
As for anything else, I can't say, but it's still been a very short time.

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Anagami View Post
Updates on my n-backing experiment.
After a few days of dual 3-backing (position and color) and scoring about 70 to 80% level, I am experiencing incredibly lucid dreams. When I wake up, I remember all my dreams with details clearly (3 dreams usually... maybe because I 3 back? ). This has never happened to me before.
I'm not crazy about this 'side effect'... I'd prefer waking up and not remembering anything.
As for anything else, I can't say, but it's still been a very short time.

Hi Anagami,

I am curious, do you mean a lucid dream or just a dream that you remember with high clarity? In other words, are you aware you are dreaming, while you are dreaming?

Thanks,
Gary

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  #36 (permalink)
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Gary View Post
Hi Anagami,

I am curious, do you mean a lucid dream or just a dream that you remember with high clarity? In other words, are you aware you are dreaming, while you are dreaming?

Thanks,
Gary

In the dreams, I was not aware that I was dreaming, but when I woke up, I remembered all 3 in complete details.

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  #37 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Is that why in your second post to this thread you wrote:

But seriously, "score" is just a means of keeping track. You could say the same thing about money. Having more of it does not mean you are happier or a better person.

Today is day 3 for me, and I am enjoying it very much.

Mike

I will not allow this kind of defamation to stand uncontested!

I like Lumosity, and it helps my sharpen my attention and memory. That is very different from actually inducing a noticeable change in fluid intelligence. Try doing Dual 3-Back for 20 minutes a day for a week and you will feel a completely different "brain melt".

My comment was merely a friendly jest. I am glad people have taken an interest in it. It surely is better to brain exercises than passively watch TV or read one's meaningless Facebook feed.


Anagami View Post
Updates on my n-backing experiment.
After a few days of dual 3-backing (position and color) and scoring about 70 to 80% level, I am experiencing incredibly lucid dreams. When I wake up, I remember all my dreams with details clearly (3 dreams usually... maybe because I 3 back? ). This has never happened to me before.
I'm not crazy about this 'side effect'... I'd prefer waking up and not remembering anything.
As for anything else, I can't say, but it's still been a very short time.

Very interesting! I was plagued with nightmares in my teens, and therefore I worked on this quite a lot. I am now very often aware of dreaming. It usually takes a little while to understand that it is a dream, but when I do I can even change the plot. When one starts remembering, or even being aware of, one's dreams it's easy to become frightened. However, it's important to remember that this is a way for the brain to sort out all the junk one puts in it. It's amazing how stress changes one's dreams.

I probably die in my sleep once a week, but it's more like losing in a video game now. I am aware of it being a dream, and I can wake myself up or change the dream. It doesn't always work, of course, but more often than not.

The downside is that all of the amazing things one can see in dreams are so far from ordinary reality. It's like a self-induced LSD trip. I rarely have real nightmares anymore, but I often jump out of planes without parachutes and similar things.

By remembering one's dreams, one gets to squeeze more out of life. I pity the fools that black out 8 hours a day!


Last edited by Lornz; April 17th, 2012 at 09:43 AM. Reason: found one of what I believe to be many errors
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  #38 (permalink)
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Is everyone still doing Lumosity? If so, how do your results compare today to months ago?

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I think I need to find the special needs section of the forum after comparing my score!

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Apologies for the deleted post it took me a little while to work out how to embed the image into the post (probably another reason I need the special needs section).

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I did the free one, which is kinda crap because they don't give you the BPI score. But what's interesting is I couldn't get past level 10 on the box thing. I kept nailing the 9 level over and over again, but as soon as there were 10 it seemed like I could only remember about half of them. You would think I could remember 8 or 9 of them, but I couldn't, it was like memory overload. I was working on half my normal sleep and no coffee, so it will be interesting to see how it changes tomorrow on a full night's sleep and coffee. Maybe I'll do a full night's sleep and no coffee tomorrow and then next day do full night's sleep and coffee and see how that compares.

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