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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests


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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests

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  #1 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
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Kinda surprised this hasn't been talked about. I am interested to hear what the trading community believes about the protests...

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Bermudan Option View Post
Kinda surprised this hasn't been talked about. I am interested to hear what the trading community believes about the protests...

I like the Occupy Wall St motto of "We are the 99%". It seems to me that wall street, corporate america just continues to look out only for themselves, the 1%, and they are allowed to do so because they've bought and paid for our congress, fed chair, etc.

American jobs are being exported overseas because it is more profitable. Bottom line.

Huge corporations are paying no tax due to loopholes.

Corporate america is having gangbuster earnings while we have record unemployment and foreclosure.

The idea of a protest has merit, because more people need to be educated so that they won't keep voting in the congress that is owned by the banks and institutions. That basically means don't vote for the guys with the most ad time or campaign contributions, vote for the under dog who refuses to do the bidding of banks or large donors. Then maybe congress will be "for the people, by the people".

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 vegasfoster 
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start of the revolution

or...

bunch of ppl who got kicked out of their parents house, again

you decide

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vegasfoster View Post
start of the revolution

or...

bunch of ppl who got kicked out of their parents house, again

you decide

Well I am too young to really have any kind of memories of previous large scale protests, like vietnam or etc... but one thing I think they are doing wrong is women going topless. That does not add credibility to a very serious issue. It has the opposite effect, plus gives main stream media an excuse to not cover it --- which is of course in the best interest of wall street, who owns main street media..

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 cw30000 
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Leaders will come when the people are ready. As this is just the start.

The American political system MUST changed. We can no longer have a 2 party 1 single system. We cannot going to vote the lesser of two evils. That's being going on too long.

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Big Mike View Post
I like the Occupy Wall St motto of "We are the 99%". It seems to me that wall street, corporate america just continues to look out only for themselves, the 1%, and they are allowed to do so because they've bought and paid for our congress, fed chair, etc.

If what you say is true and corporations do own congress, then how come the corporations let healthcare bill be passed and the dodd frank bill be passed? Why is the EPA allowed to have more power? Each of these is destroying the very corporations you say are in power.

We all work for or indirectly work for big corporations like it or not. Even you Mike. Your broker is a corporation, and guess what, they are doing the same thing as every other corporation in America is doing. If you found out your broker was paying no taxes or less than you would consider fair, would you drop them? If you found out all of them were not paying taxes would you stop trading?? Would you move your account overseas??

Besides the top 1% is paying nearly 40% of the taxes. The top 10% is paying 70% of the taxes. How much would you have them pay?? What about taxing the 50% of wage earners who pay no taxes at all! Shouldnt they pay there fair share just like the rest of us?



Big Mike View Post

American jobs are being exported overseas because it is more profitable. Bottom line.

Why is it more profitable? less redtape and regulations and taxes. Do you blame them? You own a business; if you had to choose between 2 brokers, one charging 20 bucks round trip and the other 5 bucks a round trip which would you take? How about a overseas broker who is charging 1 dollar a round trip. Would you do the very thing you are condemning these corporations for doing: Go with the cheapest broker to be more profitable? Isnt that what you are in business for, to make profits??



Big Mike View Post

Huge corporations are paying no tax due to loopholes.

I work for a fortune 500 company and I can tell you this is flat out wrong. Majority of corporations pay more than there fair share of taxes. Our tax rate is around 31%. There are the exceptions but they are few and far between and are seen mostly on the nightly news to make you think everyone is paying no taxes at all..



Big Mike View Post

Corporate america is having gangbuster earnings while we have record unemployment and foreclosure.

Healthcare was passed the dodd frank bill was passed plus the hundreds of bills which are not read but passed anyways come out of Washington every year. Companies have no idea what the future holds. Would you hire someone for the sake of hiring someone? How about for a tax credit? The answer is no. There is no reason to keep someone employed if they are not doing anything. Businesses were caught off gaurd in 2008 and they made adjustments now they have record amounts of cash on hand. Then there is the whole supply and demand thing.. Why would you keep producing product if you had no one to sell it to?

Do you know why we have record foreclosure? In 1999 under pressure from the Clinton administration, Fannie Mae lowered the qualifications to get a mortgage. This coupled with changes to the Comunity Reinvestment act allowed banks and other lenders give loans to people who were previously unqualified. This was the beginning of the end for the housing market. A loan could be handed out to every tom dick and harry who wanted one. This allowed people to buy more house than they could afford. Companies sprung up like CountryWide who realized how easy it was to hand out loans and got into the business. This reminds me of people piling on to a hot stock as it goes up rapidly.. and you know how that ends...same as the housing market...Then everyone acts suprised when it happens and starts pointing fingers..

This link is from the New York Times so must be true!
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending - NYTimes.com

See changes in 1999:
Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Big Mike View Post

The idea of a protest has merit, because more people need to be educated so that they won't keep voting in the congress that is owned by the banks and institutions.

What merit? most of them dont even know what they are protesting. On top of it they broke the law and got arrested. Since when is doing the wrong thing considered to be right? We should be condemning these people for breaking the law. Not celebrating what they are doing. When was the last time we celebrated a bank robber? Never, but ironically they are attacking the same businesses as the protesters.

You have it backwards.. Congress owns the banks and institutions not the other way around; You either contribute to my campaign or I will pass a bill that will destroy your business. Thats why there are lobbyist!!


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 Zondor 
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In this country, the bottom 80% had 7% of the financial wealth, in 2007. The top 1% had 43%. So why SHOULDN'T they pay 40% of the taxes? So they can create more jobs, like they have since then?




It's not the bottom half of the top 1% who are to blame for the mess. That group includes the ranks of self made achievers. It's the much smaller number of financial sector parasites and super crooks at the very top. And the tiny group of ultra reactionary, billionaires like the Koch Brothers, the Coors family, Scaife, etc who have been quietly working to undermine the United States for decades.

The Fortune 500 companies are job destroyers, not job creators.

If the richest people in this country did not want the government to be following its present economic policies, who DID dictate them? The homeless? Welfare cheats? Socialists? Atheists? I do not recall that any of those groups field large, influential groups of K Street lobbyists.

I am talking about PROVEN job destroying policies like:
  • Free trade agreements
  • Tax breaks for offshoring
  • Removal of leverage limits from banks and socialization of their losses
  • Wars of imperialist aggression



As far as Health Reform goes, why was it made into a giveaway bonanza for insurance and pharmaceutical monopolists when "The People", according to every poll, wanted a SINGLE PAYER system? Who exactly are the biggest beneficiaries of that, again? Now that private corporations have essentially been granted the power of taxation?




Incredibly, even now, the perfidious President and Congress are trying to sneak through MORE "Free Trade Agreements":
https://cei.org/blog/2011/10/04/free-trade-agreements-are-not-that-free

Anyone who calls President Obankster a liberal is seriously deluded. George Bush IV is more like it, Clinton was GHWB II.

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Zondor View Post
If the richest people in this country did not want the government to be following its present economic policies,who DID dictate them?


I would ask the same question: why would the rich create policies which would destroy their own wealth? They wouldnt. So... since everyone on the right wants to be rich, I would say this pretty much rules out everyone on the right... if you rule out the right then this leaves only one side left.. I will let you do the math...

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
I would ask the same question: why would the rich create policies which would destroy their own wealth? They wouldnt. So... since everyone on the right wants to be rich, I would say this pretty much rules out everyone on the right... if you rule out the right then this leaves only one side left.. I will let you do the math...

SD


Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now, who are those billionaire leftists who pay for all those K Street lobbyists again?

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Zondor View Post
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now, who are those billionaire leftists who pay for all those K Street lobbyists again?

George Soros, Warren Buffet comes to mind... Besides I dont even understand how there can be rich on the left. They are all about redistribution of wealth. Shouldnt they be giving all their money away? Obama made 5 million last year. Shouldnt he donate that to the have nots? What about Al Gore and all the hollywood elites.. They have so much money yet they hoard all of it just like the evil rich guys on the right.. By all accounts they should be making median househould income, but they dont.

That makes me mad, damnit I need a new iPhone 4s!! They should give me the money I didnt work for so I can go out an buy one!!! Just sayin...


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 Zondor 
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You are destroying your own arguments. What you are saying makes no sense.

It's time to stop the looting, and start prosecuting!

Koch Entertained Justice Thomas At His Private Club Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


But wait, there's more!


A new Lost Decade is leading to revolution - Paul B. Farrell - MarketWatch


Quoting 
"Yes, big shock dead ahead. The class wars like Arab Spring are accelerating across America. “Occupy Wall Street” is going viral, spreading through “Occupy Together,” expanding in dozens of cities across America and the world, growing bigger — in commitment, in mission, in boldness — a resistance movement waging war against our democracy-killing Super Rich.

Next, expect many more class wars, regional rebellions, uprisings against the wealthy — yes, this is the second American Revolution."



New Economic Perspectives: A Suggested Theme for the Occupation of Wall Street



Quoting 
The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission reported on the results of the Great Recession that was driven by this fraud epidemic:

"As this report goes to print, there are more than 26 million Americans who are out of work, cannot find full-time work, or have given up looking for work. About
four million families have lost their homes to foreclosure and another four and a half million have slipped into the foreclosure process or are seriously behind on their
mortgage payments. Nearly $11 trillion in household wealth has vanished, with retirement accounts and life savings swept away. Businesses, large and small, have felt the sting of a deep recession."

It is the fraudulent SDIs that are the massive job killers and wealth destroyers. It is the Great Recession that the fraudulent SDIs produced that caused most of the growth in the federal deficits and made the fiscal crises in our states and localities acute. The senior officers that led the control frauds are the opposite of the "productive class." No one, without the aid of an army, has ever destroyed more wealth and dreams than the control frauds. It is essential to hold them accountable, to help their victims recover, and to end their ongoing frauds and corruption that have crippled our economy, our democracy, and our nation.


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Zondor View Post
You are destroying your own arguments. What you are saying makes no sense.

Koch Entertained Justice Thomas At His Private Club Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


Your referencing counterpunch and you are saying I make no sense. Really?? lol

goodnight Zondor.

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 Cloudy 
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Very good points. All that money went somewhere.

There's also a big problem with corporations stating skilled American workers can't be found. It was reported somewhere up to a 2 million shortage of skilled , educated workers especially in the technical fields as was traditionally done of new college(or military) graduates they hired. What hasn't been reported as much and has been swept under the rug by the media and both major parties is that corporations don't invest in training anymore of Americans. There are far fewer internships. Far fewer retraining programs sponsored. Within the past decade, there was the boom of hiring foreign nationals and shipping jobs overseas with a lot of training done by soon to be laid off workers who claimed they had to "train their replacement". Even at the undergraduate and now at the graduate level, new graduates don't have the specific job skills required in a STEM(science,engineering, technical,math) job. Imo, that's the real problem with educated STEM jobs, not as much the university system, as corporations sitting on cash, or investing it offshore, and not training the next generations of new technical skilled workers. Throwing more taxpayer money at Education K-12, "shovel ready" jobs, and the waste of the Dept. of Education to produce liberal studies graduates for the next generation of K-12 teachers, DMV, and state workers is not helping the situation. That's just fueling the unions machine.

I recall reading Computerworld magazines back in the late nineties and early 2000's. There were editor and opinion articles about "outsourcing" and "offshoring", whether it was good for the industry etc. There were a lot of pros about it, such as improved efficiency, quicker project time estimations, improved global business etc. And we all know how that turned out. Record corporate profits and production by the cost cutting due to offshoring. As of now, not just IT has been affected by offshoring but most all employment sectors. An estimated 20-25 million jobs were offshored, a whole lost generation of jobs. And those jobs are probably never coming back. The next 3rd world industrialization boom will be Brazil , and South America. The "American" multinationals will be there next. A lot of technological and manufacturing know-how was also shipped off. When we saw high end precision electronics starting to be made in China such as graphics cards, most all laptops and motherboards, and LCD's since 2005, it was pretty much over. Before that they could only manufacture dubious messily soldered boards for power supplies.

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 Eric j 
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Bermudan Option View Post
Kinda surprised this hasn't been talked about. I am interested to hear what the trading community believes about the protests...

Im in manhattan often and it looked like a deadhead get together . It hasnt gotten too cold in NYC yet and when it does they'll disperse to warmer causes . Disclaimer - I love the grateful dead .

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 cw30000 
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Cloudy View Post
Very good points. All that money went somewhere.

There's also a big problem with corporations stating skilled American workers can't be found. It was reported somewhere up to a 2 million shortage of skilled , educated workers especially in the technical fields as was traditionally done of new college(or military) graduates they hired. What hasn't been reported as much and has been swept under the rug by the media and both major parties is that corporations don't invest in training anymore of Americans. There are far fewer internships. Far fewer retraining programs sponsored. Within the past decade, there was the boom of hiring foreign nationals and shipping jobs overseas with a lot of training done by soon to be laid off workers who claimed they had to "train their replacement". Even at the undergraduate and now at the graduate level, new graduates don't have the specific job skills required in a STEM(science,engineering, technical,math) job. Imo, that's the real problem with educated STEM jobs, not as much the university system, as corporations sitting on cash, or investing it offshore, and not training the next generations of new technical skilled workers. Throwing more taxpayer money at Education K-12, "shovel ready" jobs, and the waste of the Dept. of Education to produce liberal studies graduates for the next generation of K-12 teachers, DMV, and state workers is not helping the situation. That's just fueling the unions machine.

I recall reading Computerworld magazines back in the late nineties and early 2000's. There were editor and opinion articles about "outsourcing" and "offshoring", whether it was good for the industry etc. There were a lot of pros about it, such as improved efficiency, quicker project time estimations, improved global business etc. And we all know how that turned out. Record corporate profits and production by the cost cutting due to offshoring. As of now, not just IT has been affected by offshoring but most all employment sectors. An estimated 20-25 million jobs were offshored, a whole lost generation of jobs. And those jobs are probably never coming back. The next 3rd world industrialization boom will be Brazil , and South America. The "American" multinationals will be there next. A lot of technological and manufacturing know-how was also shipped off. When we saw high end precision electronics starting to be made in China such as graphics cards, most all laptops and motherboards, and LCD's since 2005, it was pretty much over. Before that they could only manufacture dubious messily soldered boards for power supplies.

Trust me, corporations do not want to sit on the cash. They are not getting any interest, and there is inflation. The only reason why they are sitting on cash because the environment does not warrant it. There is no certainty from Washington. The decision from Washington affect everyone in the country. This is the reason why they rather go offshore and outsource the jobs.

Just take the same situation apply to a state level. If the lawmaker in NY is uncertain and introduce new law every day, but in NJ, the lawmaker is certain that no new tax and regulations will be introduce, the companies in NY can just relocation their resource to NJ if they want to grow. This is exactly the reason why corporations outsource.

Just think about it, you are facing your policy at home and by outsourcing, you have to deal with another countries policy. Why make business complicate. It suppose to be fun.

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 forrestang 
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Just wondering, should a company who is stock piling cash be forced to create a job they either don't need or can do without?

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 cw30000 
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forrestang View Post
Just wondering, should a company who is stock piling cash be forced to create a job they either don't need or can do without?

Under a capitalist and free country, they can do whatever they want with the money. If they like, they can burn it to warm their hands.

But we don't have a free country or we have capitalism. China has more economy freedom than US. Business here are look to China. This is how sad this country is.

The occupy wall street people are ill inform. It is not capitalism that failed, it is corny capitalism that had failed. Our government with central planning has failed us. A true capitalism would like those "too big to failed" just failed.

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 Mickey Caine 
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On a slightly trival note, could I just add that any cause that encourages women to remove their tops, I am fully behind.

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Honestly, I think these protests are intended to deflect attention from the White House, in regards to the last 2-3 years of economic policy making that hasn't produced the results we were promised. Otherwise, why are they starting now? It would have been more salient to raise these concerns back in 2008 ...

Furthermore, to allege that "corporate and Wall Street greed" is the only reason behind the current economic predicament is to ignore the role that government played in this (and, to a lesser extent, organized labor). I'm not saying that Wall Street (Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros., Merrill, B of A) and corporations (AIG) didn't play a role, because they clearly did, but to portray them as being the only actors responsible is disingenuous. The Federal Government in the 1990s prodded banks to develop the sub-prime mortgage market, and the White House resisted efforts by the CFTC to rein in over-the-counter derivatives. Republicans don't get off scot-free either, as they controlled both the White House and Congress for six years in the 2000s and didn't do anything to head off these risks.

That being said, while most of the TARP money lent to the financial sector has been repaid, the biggest *non-payment* so far has been from the automobile industry, which is beset by onerous labor contracts. The challenges facing state and municipal governments stem primarily from the fact that they rely too much on taxing the wealthy (whose average net worth plummeted during this crisis, thereby reducing tax revenues to government), exposing the prohibitive costs these governments pay to unionized labor and pensions.

Of course, all of this is lost on the twenty-something protesters who are banging drums, blowing horns and waving pseudo-socialist red flags on the corner of Jackson and LaSalle Street in Chicago.

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 cw30000 
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Mickey Caine View Post
On a slightly trival note, could I just add that any cause that encourages women to remove their tops, I am fully behind.

For some women, you would rather have them put the extra clothes on.

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 cw30000 
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furytrader View Post
Honestly, I think these protests are intended to deflect attention from the White House, in regards to the last 2-3 years of economic policy making that hasn't produced the results we were promised. Otherwise, why are they starting now? It would have been more salient to raise these concerns back in 2008 ...

Furthermore, to allege that "corporate and Wall Street greed" is the only reason behind the current economic predicament is to ignore the role that government played in this (and, to a lesser extent, organized labor). I'm not saying that Wall Street (Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros., Merrill, B of A) and corporations (AIG) didn't play a role, because they clearly did, but to portray them as being the only actors responsible is disingenuous. The Federal Government in the 1990s prodded banks to develop the sub-prime mortgage market, and the White House resisted efforts by the CFTC to rein in over-the-counter derivatives. Republicans don't get off scot-free either, as they controlled both the White House and Congress for six years in the 2000s and didn't do anything to head off these risks.

That being said, while most of the TARP money lent to the financial sector has been repaid, the biggest *non-payment* so far has been from the automobile industry, which is beset by onerous labor contracts. The challenges facing state and municipal governments stem primarily from the fact that they rely too much on taxing the wealthy (whose average net worth plummeted during this crisis, thereby reducing tax revenues to government), exposing the prohibitive costs these governments pay to unionized labor and pensions.

Of course, all of this is lost on the twenty-something protesters who are banging drums, blowing horns and waving pseudo-socialist red flags on the corner of Jackson and LaSalle Street in Chicago.

The problem as I see it is because people's are fed up with the government. They are taking on Wall Street is because Wall Street owns all the governments, which in term own us.

About the TARP money, it has never reply. If they take it free, and turn around and able to leverage to 40 to 1 or something and buy treasury bill. Even if treasury bill is at 1% that's 40% risk free money.

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 furytrader 
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Regarding the TARP, the Treasury Department (to their credit) publishes a daily TARP update so you can see what was paid out, what's been paid back, etc. You can read it here.

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 redratsal 
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Mickey Caine View Post
On a slightly trival note, could I just add that any cause that encourages women to remove their tops, I am fully behind.

I am also in favor of short naked activities... instrument mini skirt...



Forgive me beeing off topic...

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 Zondor 
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Disregard the title.

There is an Occupy event here in Portland OR, starting tomorrow.

Maybe I should go. My career and retirement savings have been destroyed.

Warren Buffet.... George Soros... Warrren Buffet... George Soros... all those lefties, it's all their fault, why do they HATE AMERICA?


Quoting 
Honestly, I think these protests are intended to deflect attention from the White House, in regards to the last 2-3 years of economic policy making that hasn't produced the results we were promised. Otherwise, why are they starting now? It would have been more salient to raise these concerns back in 2008 ...

Honestly, that sounds moronic. Yeah, the protests were all organized by Austin Goolsbie.

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 bluemele 
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cw30000 View Post
Under a capitalist and free country, they can do whatever they want with the money. If they like, they can burn it to warm their hands.

But we don't have a free country or we have capitalism. China has more economy freedom than US. Business here are look to China. This is how sad this country is.

The occupy wall street people are ill inform. It is not capitalism that failed, it is corny capitalism that had failed. Our government with central planning has failed us. A true capitalism would like those "too big to failed" just failed.

To me, Capitalism can't work without balance. Socialism definitely doesn't work!

Capitalism only works when there is a high moral fiber. Rich people only get rich in my opinion because of the shoulders they have stood upon whether it be laws, people, family, education system, highways, etc...

Here in Hawaii, the wealthiest are those that tap into the State and Federal Government for their gravy train. It is disgusting to see and I hope someday to see it end. And by the way, these are people that lean HARD RIGHT!!!! Funny how that works. As long as it is for them, then government programs are great.

WE can all be VICTIMS and blame blame blame, but we all put ourselves in this situation. Who's fault is it that we are all fat (I am not!), poor diet, poor work ethic (compared to earlier generations).

I don't want to blame, but to me I think you had a very sad war, a baby boom, then a bunch of f-ed up kids from f-ed up dads coming back from the war and now they have been setting policy for 30 years that will destroy us.

****I have a SOLUTION!!!!!

Take every political office term and multiply it by 1.5

Example: President = 4 * 1.5 = 6

President serves 6 years. No reelection, no bullshit, done done done. 200 years ago a president could do only so much harm in 8 years. Now they can do considerably more and there is too much bullshit like "We don't want to give the President a "WIN" for the next election! WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Senators get 9 years!
Representatives 3 years!

A person can hold only one type of position in a lifetime. Senator once only, then could be a representative, then could be a President etc..

If you are vice President, then you could become President or any other political office.

Let's get back to Servant Leadership!

To me, that is the solution, no more lobby bribes, corruption (limited) and Congressional health care etc...

I will serve or run for office if I know I will have a chance to get on a decent committee without sucking the balls of some tired dipshit who has no moral barriers.

Congressional committee assignments will be done via blind voting. Each person gets one vote for each committee position.

SOLVED. No more bullshit, no more corrupt Goldman Sach's employee's running Treasury, FDIC, SEC!!!!!

President will be elected by POPULAR VOTE!

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 forrestang 
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bluemele View Post
To me, Capitalism can't work without balance. Socialism definitely doesn't work!

Capitalism only works when there is a high moral fiber. Rich people only get rich in my opinion because of the shoulders they have stood upon whether it be laws, people, family, education system, highways, etc...

Here in Hawaii, the wealthiest are those that tap into the State and Federal Government for their gravy train. It is disgusting to see and I hope someday to see it end. And by the way, these are people that lean HARD RIGHT!!!! Funny how that works. As long as it is for them, then government programs are great.

I don't think it's fair to assume that the ONLY way people get rich is by taking from someone else. And by that I'm thinking of the Steve Jobbs, or Gates, or Buffets. Those people, or people like them that create something someone else wants to buy, or take a risk at some point by investing in something, I don't think it can get any fairer than that.

It seems you are describing a situation where it is likely, a failure of GOVERNMENT and the people that appoint those people. If someone gets rich by steering a government contract their way and paying off a politician, that's a failure in government and it's supporters. Basically ANY entity that receives an actual subsidy of some sort(not a tax reduction but an actual payment, or some type of government backstop), there will always be room for impropriety. Sure THOSE types of people are getting wealth based on the shoulders of someone else, but that's the fault of the government.

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 Zondor 
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The economy is being destroyed by FINANCIALIZATIION, pure and simple. Denninger, as usual, hits the nail on the head. The title of this post should more accurately have been: a return to a real economy based on production rather than speculation, manipulation, monopolist parasitism, asset stripping.. and perpetual war.


OWS: Want To Turn The Tide? in [Market-Ticker]




Quoting 
"If so -- if this is really about "the 99%" -- then you need to understand a few things.

Some of you already do. To those, this article is redundant. To the rest, and to the majority of the people in this nation, it is not.

Last night I appeared on Dylan Ratigan's show. You can watch the segment, and should. I used the word financialization, which a few people emailed me about and asked me to explain.

Thus, this Ticker.

So what is financialization anyway? It is the process by which something very ordinary (say, a TV set) becomes financed. In doing so there is inherently created the use (and usually the abuse) of leverage..."


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 Bermudan Option 
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I think the protests show the strength of the youth and the young at heart. Unfortunately a lot of them do not bother to do research and as a result their reasoning and logic is subject to whoever sounds the most passionate or wears the least expensive birkenstocks. I remember getting in argument with a person holding an "Obama is Hitler" sign last year. He talked about Obama and bailing out banks ad nauseum. I asked him his views on the Frank-Dodd act and was met with a blank stare, I asked him if he had done any reading and whether he knew that recent steps made by the president were viewed by many as anti-business. This was met with another blank stare before he repeated his initial pitch and tuned me out.

I applaud those that have the willpower to stand up for what they believe in, but at the same time question their beliefs and whether they are seeing the world from an incorrect frame of mind. It is easy to pit the corporations (and the 1% of the population) as purposefully trying to rape and pillage 99%, but that is vastly oversimplifying the dynamics between class, political views, capitalism, nationalism, etc.

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 Zondor 
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Occupy Wall Street: a Reply to Skeptics Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names



Quoting 
On September 27th Lauren Ellis published an essay in Mother Jones Magazine entitled “Is OccupyWallStreet Working?”

The essay argues that Occupy Wall Street (OWS) is not working because the movement has no clear message and is not demographically representative of those who are affected most by the current economic problems. While Ellis does raise important points about movement-messaging and political representation, she in no way tries to understand the internal logic and outward expression of OWS.


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 Zondor 
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Watch this video and get back to me.


WTF $6.50 an hour - YouTube

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 kbit 
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Zondor View Post
Watch this video and get back to me.


WTF $6.50 an hour - YouTube


I like that watching that guy vent... Did you see the one where he's taking it out on his computer.
>

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 bluemele 
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kbit View Post
I like that watching that guy vent... Did you see the one where he's taking it out on his computer.
>

I like Kramer's new set.

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
If you are blaming the protesters, or are mystified by them, then you just don't get it. Denial is part of the problem. Too many people have yet to wake up to the fact that they have already been victimized. They are playing along with the dishonest shell game of extend and pretend that the Fed and other central banks and governments are running. It's time to get real, wake up, and face the music. The longer the game goes on, the worse the consequences for the 99%, and ultimately for the 1%, whose ranks will be decimated at some point, and probably not peacefully if this scam is allowed to continue for much longer.


I Stand With The Protesters | The Wall Street Examiner

Better hurry up with those walls around the Luxury Golf Communities, and lay in a few years' worth of fine alcoholic beverages, golf and tennis balls, those goofy tasseled golf shoes, over the knee socks to go with those stylish Bermuda shorts, tennis togs, Alzheimer's medications, and imported high end motor vehicles (preferably armored) while you're at it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/6223629596/

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 zt379 
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Occupy Wall Street - "Systemic change please"...Michael Hudson
(someone you introduced us all to Zondor..thx)


"Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile..." zt379
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 forrestang 
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Here is an idea, who will join me? We should develop a unifying theme for these 'citizens' so we could sell some t-shirts to the crowds in various cities.

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 Big Mike 
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Ben & Jerry's Deliciously Supports Those Occupying Wall Street - The Consumerist

https://www.benjerry.com/activism/occupy-movement/



Mike

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 kiasucapital 
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Power to the people. Wall Street has been rigging the game for far too long. This depression was engineered to transfer money to the wealthy. In 2008 hedge fund made record profits. Get ready for part 2.

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 liquidcci 
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Pull out a few bankers cane them so all the suffering protesters can take pictures with their iphones and ipads. Come on are things so bad that these protesters are having to give up their xbox live accounts or unlimited mobile data plans. This nation is not perfect but we all have it pretty good. Even the poor in our nation would be considered middle class in many places.

In my city the occupy Wall Street gang surrounded a Bank of America for charging $5 per month debit card fee. Really $5 per month and the masses rage. We have it so bad.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 bluemele 
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liquidcci View Post
Pull out a few bankers cane them so all the suffering protesters can take pictures with their iphones and ipads. Come on are things so bad that these protesters are having to give up their xbox live accounts or unlimited mobile data plans. This nation is not perfect but we all have it pretty good. Even the poor in our nation would be considered middle class in many places.

In my city the occupy Wall Street gang surrounded a Bank of America for charging $5 per month debit card fee. Really $5 per month and the masses rage. We have it so bad.

Your comments are true. We do have it pretty good, but I also don't think a great many are mainly concerned about not only themselves, but the general 'direction' and that we do not want the 'games' to be played any longer.

So, the point to me isn't about how bad we have it and poor us, but more inline with 'quit f-in us and playing the political games'. No more GS or other New York Bankers allowed to set foot in a government office. Hell, no more government! haha..

The government (our own corrupt one) has ENABLED these bankers as they have infiltrated the regulatory arena. These people to me are just saying, ENOUGH!

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 liquidcci 
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bluemele View Post
Your comments are true. We do have it pretty good, but I also don't think a great many are mainly concerned about not only themselves, but the general 'direction' and that we do not want the 'games' to be played any longer.

So, the point to me isn't about how bad we have it and poor us, but more inline with 'quit f-in us and playing the political games'. No more GS or other New York Bankers allowed to set foot in a government office. Hell, no more government! haha..

The government (our own corrupt one) has ENABLED these bankers as they have infiltrated the regulatory arena. These people to me are just saying, ENOUGH!

bluemele I hear you on that but most of these protest want more government. It is not just about not giving GS access to government. It is about taking money of rich and distributing to what they perceive as an inequality. They want the government to to punish the successful and give it to them. Has nothing to do with earning it or coming up with their own great idea. It is a welfare mentality which is amazing since most of them have smartphones, drive cars, macbook pros and ipads.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 Angler 
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Government needs to get out of the way!!!

Don't let Obama get re elected!!! I say if anyone bitched about the Bush's spending how can they not have an issue with the current President!!!

Repeal the healthcare...

Flat 10% consumption tax ON EVERYTHING!!!!

Everyone needs to sacrifice at this point EVERYONE!!!!

"Yeah, well, you know, that's your opinion, man..."
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 serac 
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liquidcci View Post
It is a welfare mentality which is amazing since most of them have smartphones, drive cars, macbook pros and ipads.

Welfare, or just straight communism:

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

It seems that people forget the USA is a democracy in a republic (or, at least it was deisgned that way). Leave out that republic part, and you get lovely bloodbaths like the French revolution.

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 liquidcci 
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serac View Post
Welfare, or just straight communism:

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

It seems that people forget the USA is a democracy in a republic (or, at least it was deisgned that way). Leave out that republic part, and you get lovely bloodbaths like the French revolution.

No kidding

"Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! "

How about not borrowing money you cant pay back and stop buying stuff you can't afford on credit cards. Amazing these people don't want banker accountability they want a free ride on life. They want to use the system on other peoples dollar. The Entitlement generation is rising.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 liquidcci 
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This says it all


"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 futuretrader 
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liquidcci View Post
bluemele I hear you on that but most of these protest want more government. It is not just about not giving GS access to government. It is about taking money of rich and distributing to what they perceive as an inequality. They want the government to to punish the successful and give it to them. Has nothing to do with earning it or coming up with their own great idea. It is a welfare mentality which is amazing since most of them have smartphones, drive cars, macbook pros and ipads.

I don't know anything about these particular protesters, but it's certainly not true that everyone who is critical of current practices on wall street and corporate America has a 'welfare mentality' and wants handouts, and I doubt that it's true of all of the wall street protesters seeither.

This sort of argument always seems to take as its premise the notion that the rich become rich entirely through their own merit, having emerged from a state of nature with a 'great idea' or some such, and having received no benefit whatsoever from the existent social structure. But they are of course primary beneficiaries of living in the context of a well-regulated, ordered and peaceful society. We have opportunities to conceive, develop and implement ideas because the government creates the appropriate conditions.

Taxes aren't a 'punishment', they're an opportunity to contribute to the cost of maintaining and improving the society in which we live. It seems reasonable to ask the very rich to pay a substantial amount in order to continue that process, instead of abandoning it in order to retreat into private security compounds and 'green zones'.

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 forrestang 
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futuretrader View Post
........ and having received no benefit whatsoever from the existent social structure. But they are of course primary beneficiaries of living in the context of a well-regulated, ordered and peaceful society. We have opportunities to conceive, develop and implement ideas because the government creates the appropriate conditions.

I gotta mention this part above. 'The System' doesn't make people who they are. If it were 'the system,' everyone would be prosperous, but that is not the case. Before society ever was what it is, there have ALWAYS been people who find more prosperity than others, and it will ALWAYS be that way.

The people who do better than others, pay into and contribute to 'the system' just like everyone else that benefited from it, they don't owe it anymore than anyone else does.

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 serac 
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forrestang View Post
The people who do better than others, pay into and contribute to 'the system' just like everyone else that benefited from it, they don't owe it anymore than anyone else does.

True. One could make the argument stronger, too. One could argue that they should morally pay less. The rich (most likely) spend more, and hence, will be taxed more. Secondly, and most importantly, the rich employ the not-rich. Creating wealth takes work. And most rich create their own weath (and not inherit it). The rich are prolific producers of "shovel ready" jobs, not bureaucrats. Letting the rich do their thing without undo hinderance is positive feedback - everyone, the rich, poor, and the government get more money. Of course, there are extremes and exceptions.

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 Zondor 
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Calling all banksters and knee-jerk right wing fuddy duddies: Time to trade in the golf shoes for combat boots, and the golf clubs for shotguns? Better start shedding the baby fat, looking up defense attorneys, and getting ready for tough times!



Quoting 
Asher Edelman, the well-known corporate raider, told CNBC Tuesday that he supported Occupy Wall Street, saying “the greed of the banks are the cause for the terrible economic situation that we have today.”


Asher Edelman speaks at Occupy Wall Street

Edelman was a corporate raider in the late 1980s, known for going after big American companies like Burlington Industries, Lucky Stores and the Fruehauf Corporation.

He also helped inspire the character Gordon Gekko in Oliver Stone’s 1987 film “Wall Street.”

Edelman, who appeared at Zuccotti Park, the site of the protests in lower Manhattan, said he is trying to help the protestors get direction so it “doesn’t remain amorphous as it has been.”

“We are all rooting for them and hoping they get (President) Obama and some other people moving in the right direction for a change,” he added.

“The banking system has become a system, which is one large hedge fund supported by the free money of the depositors and by the taxpayers whenever it loses," Edelman said. "That was not the banking system of the 1980s."

News Headlines



Quoting 
This time support is coming from surprising places. Like former corporate activist (and buyer of companies!) Asher Edelman.

Here's the problem for the "powers that be" who have been trying to ignore this movement: They erroneously believed, as did many others (myself included), that this would be like the Tea Party (which was de-fanged and turned into a fraudulent shell of what it began as) or the other "movements" such as the "protests" at G-20 meetings. That is, people would show up, they'd wave signs, a few would commit random acts of violence and guarantee severe negative billing on the local TV and then they'd all go home and wash the tear gas out of their eyes.

But something different happened this time.

The people came. They didn't throw molotov cocktails, sticks and bombs. They did wave signs, but then they didn't go home. They did what I said would have to be done - in 2008 - in order to make a difference: THEY STAYED.

Market-Ticker - MarketTicker Forums

Note that Karl Denninger was one of the original promoters of the Tea Party movement, which he subsequently renounced after it became a Koch Brothers/Fox News propaganda vehicle, with the original focus on financial sector reform replaced by traditional murdochist theocratic corporate puritanism.

Stop the looting and start prosecuting is sounding better and better. The Swindler-In-Chief included.

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 liquidcci 
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Let me say it again.


"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 zt379 
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Tom Woods and Stefan Molyneux Take On Wall Street!



"Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile..." zt379
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 bluemele 
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forrestang View Post
I gotta mention this part above. 'The System' doesn't make people who they are. If it were 'the system,' everyone would be prosperous, but that is not the case. Before society ever was what it is, there have ALWAYS been people who find more prosperity than others, and it will ALWAYS be that way.

The people who do better than others, pay into and contribute to 'the system' just like everyone else that benefited from it, they don't owe it anymore than anyone else does.

This is EGO talking. You being separate of everyone else. I believe that to be the main philosophical difference between those believing that they 'deserve' everything and others who believe they have 'earned' everything and the flavors in-between.

Read the book Outliers and tell me that you don't somewhat agree with the premise that due to our society enabling us in a certain way allows us to create or build upon the shoulders of giants.

I am guessing you are white, American and proud of it! That is great, but I pity you if you were born black, Haitian and who knows how proud you would be.

Your daddy's sperm was lucky enough to land an Egg. Your dad happened to be white and in the USA when that happened. That alone has set you up to be in the top 1% of the world just as a platform to springboard.

I put this challenge to all you 'anti-taxes', GO-REPUBLICAN BILLIONAIRE mindset.

Add up your balance sheet. And don't over-evaluate your old furniture, and clothes and your business if you have one. Be realistic. Now, this is strictly MY OPINION, but if that does not total an amount greater than $5M then you have failed. You are a welfare recipient of all the billionaires and truly wealthy people.

If you do not meet that guideline that you are a recipient of the benefit of these wealthy people and I am sad to say you are a welfare candidate. You have failed to be in the top % of American's and have absolutely no excuses or reasons why that is the case. Your choices have taken you to this place and I am sorry to say that you are POOR.

Now, take a Haitian person who moves to the United States (legal/illegal whatever) and earns 24K per year. That person is now RICH among the socialogical similarities and would not be considered a poor person. But they get welfare from the US and use our schools and other things like roads etc..

My point is that when people make the argument of "GO RICH PEOPLE GO!" you are right, those who choose to be rich will be rich but it is all in context.

For example, Why is Carlos now the Richest man in the world. Is it truly because he is the smartest, most capable, best character person in the world. Does he deserve those riches, "Yes, he worked for them". Did he?

Or did all the people who needed a job build that up? Did the bribing of government officials allow him to create the massive wealth he has created and continues to create?

Did Bill Gates create all his wealth? Did he still the GUI from Steve Jobs and co.? Did Steve Jobs still the GUI from Xerox? Did Xerox steal technology or stand on the giants of others?

Is it ok to USE and throw away people and value money higher than organic things?

To me, people who make the argument that Money is more important will finally realize something when they finally pass on. We are all the same, some with mental inabilities or limits, others with corrupt absolutinism etc..

Spend some time on the other side of the world, take away all your 'physical' objects and go to a place where white people are not 'kings' and see how they treat you. How they want to force you to feel, how they do not want you to succeed and why you don't think that is fare.

"Why would I do something like that!"... None of us are right, none of us are wrong, just a different perspective and only education will show both sides of a coin. Objective education that is.

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 bluemele 
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liquidcci View Post
bluemele I hear you on that but most of these protest want more government. It is not just about not giving GS access to government. It is about taking money of rich and distributing to what they perceive as an inequality. They want the government to to punish the successful and give it to them. Has nothing to do with earning it or coming up with their own great idea. It is a welfare mentality which is amazing since most of them have smartphones, drive cars, macbook pros and ipads.

I disagree with you. Yes, there are people who are getting more and more socialist. No doubt, but there were these people since before the Constitution was written.

If you remember, that is where we all started! Villages/tribes.... We had a chief, a medicine man, and a bunch of girls with no tops on! wooohoooo

Anyways those were the days where getting an infection in the foot could mean death and our life expectency was 26 years old! haha

So we have evolved which is great. But, I do personally do not believe that unbridled capitalism is good for anything long term, only good for those with an embedded gene derived through your ancestry that says, "I need to succeed and having wealth is important to me!".

I have worked with so many poor groups/people in the past. They all have different views (much like billionaires). To stereotype all of them is pretty crazy in my opinion.

Should everything be left up to capitalists. I can tell you that if that was the case, we would all be living in Rockefeller/Carnegies subdivisions/schools/universities and the states would probably be renamed after all the children!

Go find a homeless person, and just start talking to them. Find out how they think, why they think the way they do. What you will find is the invisible barriers scarring their brain from being like you or me. Is it that we should just throw these people away in our society, maybe put them to sleep?

Or is it the lazy bags who take up all the welfare benefits. Yes, those will always be the evil culprits. Much like there are with the rich (insider trading, white collar crimes to be never caught, bribery etc..).

I do not believe all those people camping out to be extremists in distributing the wealth. They are nothing more than people who don't want the bankers to create an unsafe and immoral atmosphere.

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 forrestang 
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bluemele View Post

I put this challenge to all you 'anti-taxes', GO-REPUBLICAN BILLIONAIRE mindset.

LOL, just for the record I am not white or anything close to it. Nor am I one of those minorities that can 'pass' for being white so that others might assume they are so. I did not grow up privileged or in a nice neighborhood. My schools sucked, and when I got to college I had to compete against a lot of other people who spent their entire lives in better schools than me. I am still not even remotely close to being wealthy btw.

But about your post, I am not following how it relates to what I said? I said that it is not 'the system' that is responsible for one's prosperity. It seems the proof for that is the fact that throughout civilizations, there have ALWAYS been wealthy people. Before there were ever schools, police or anything. Even as society becomes more civil, STILL, the majority of people are not wealthy.

I reckon its like anything, there are certain percentages of the way things just work out. I.e. there are about equal men to women in the world. A certain percentage of people will score better on tests than others. A certain percentage of people are faster than others. The percent of wealthy people is probably another one of those things.


My second point is that people who do achieve wealth don't owe 'the system' anything more than anyone else who may have benefited from it does. They owe their fair share to it.

It's like that quote from Elizabeth Warren (running for senate) who said:

Quoting 


There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along


She seems to go so far as making us into two classes of citizens, and that for some reason wealthy people don't pay into the roads, schools or any other public resource. Which is a ridiculous assertion.

My point..... Let's say Bob goes to a public school, uses public roads, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY else. Let's say he then gets a job, and pays taxes just like everybody else. Then maybe one day he gets wealthy by starting a business. At that point, he is STILL paying personal taxes, his business pays taxes..... so my point is that he is paying to 'the system' just like everybody else. 'The system' didn't give him anything special or above and beyond what anyone else got.

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 bluemele 
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forrestang View Post
LOL, just for the record I am not white or anything close to it. Nor am I one of those minorities that can 'pass' for being white so that others might assume they are so. I did not grow up privileged or in a nice neighborhood. My schools sucked, and when I got to college I had to compete against a lot of other people who spent their entire lives in better schools than me. I am still not even remotely close to being wealthy btw.

But about your post, I am not following how it relates to what I said? I said that it is not 'the system' that is responsible for one's prosperity. It seems the proof for that is the fact that throughout civilizations, there have ALWAYS been wealthy people. Before there were ever schools, police or anything. Even as society becomes more civil, STILL, the majority of people are not wealthy.

I reckon its like anything, there are certain percentages of the way things just work out. I.e. there are about equal men to women in the world. A certain percentage of people will score better on tests than others. A certain percentage of people are faster than others. The percent of wealthy people is probably another one of those things.


My second point is that people who do achieve wealth don't owe 'the system' anything more than anyone else who may have benefited from it does. They owe their fair share to it.

It's like that quote from Elizabeth Warren (running for senate) who said:



She seems to go so far as making us into two classes of citizens, and that for some reason wealthy people don't pay into the roads, schools or any other public resource. Which is a ridiculous assertion.

My point..... Let's say Bob goes to a public school, uses public roads, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY else. Let's say he then gets a job, and pays taxes just like everybody else. Then maybe one day he gets wealthy by starting a business. At that point, he is STILL paying personal taxes, his business pays taxes..... so my point is that he is paying to 'the system' just like everybody else. 'The system' didn't give him anything special or above and beyond what anyone else got.

I agree with you COMPLETELY. I think we are on the same side of the coin, but maybe on opposite ends of the same side.

To me what makes the most sense is 'paying it forward'. I have met billionaires (2 of them) and several 100M+ people. What I see is that they want to 'horde' their wealth and keep in the family. To me I do believe after one's lifetime, why not redistribute most of it?

Why does one family get to keep it? That is what bothers me as I have dealt with trust fund babies galore and it annoys me to know end. Talk about a bunch of entitled dipshits who have never worked for anything in their f-in lives except maybe 15 years at University so they can get all the extended degrees to add to their pedigree! Yuck!

I have had some good money before, not near my goal, but at the end of the day, it will go to those that don't have the same roads, schools and color that I was luckily born with.

There are 'evil' people who think distribution and equality is necessary and those people are crazy. But, I believe when you read the papers and watch the news, they KNOW that this is what gets people upset/tuned-in, so that is why they show those idiots! If they showed regular people just saying, "Hey, I don't like having to bail them out and I want them to complete many of the Dodd-Frank reforms as promised" then they would get little attention.

I am happy you are a person of color and have chosen to dig deep and not let that burden sit on you. Living in Hawaii has enlightened me to racism and I can tell you I never understood it until I was the minority. Now I respect it immensely and appreciate the differences in all of us whether it be race, religion, creed, whatever...

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 forrestang 
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bluemele View Post
I agree with you COMPLETELY. I think we are on the same side of the coin, but maybe on opposite ends of the same side.

To me what makes the most sense is 'paying it forward'.

We'll I think i may have identified where we differ. And that is I don't think someone else should be 'forced' at gunpoint to give up something they have earned. And that's exactly what it is when you do it by government mandate. Every person should have the same expectation to their private property. It is unfair to simply look at another person and say, "make them foot the bills so I don't have to."

As for leaving money to your heirs, imo no matter how much of a brat they may be, if that is where the dying person wants their money to go, that's where it should go.

I am all for paying it forward. It is a wonderful thing when done willingly. We call that 'goodwill' or 'charity.'

Imagine this scenario with Bob and Larry........

Larry is in need, Bob needs help. Bob genuinely wants to help this person. He does so. At that point there is an exchange of gratitude and well being. Bob feels good for having helped somebody. Larry feels humbled and grateful that someone did something nice for him. Both parties walk away feeling good about that transaction.

Imagine this scenario where a politician steps into Bob and Larry's situation......

Larry is in need. A politician tells Larry that if he votes for him, he will use the government to take Bob's property and give it to Larry. The transaction is complete.

Now instead of Larry and Bob walking away satisfied..... Bob is pissed because someone took his property from him in a different way than someone else. Larry is pissed because he now feels ENTITLETED to that money, and no matter the amount he will still likely feel like he should get more. Now though, Larry is now grateful to the politician. The politician is the only person who gets to walk away gaining something, as he got to distribute someone else's hard work and take credit for it.

That exchange of gratitude and goodwill is nowhere to be found.

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 bluemele 
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forrestang View Post
That exchange of gratitude and goodwill is nowhere to be found.

Well, that is the main difference. You and I are brothers. You may not be white, I may be of German descent, but I am sure our lines have crossed somewhere. WE are all brothers and sisters.

My family is about the most gawd-awful bunch of drug addicts and trailer park trash you will ever meet. Gangsta's and I am the only one in my family that hasn't been to prison!

So... Maybe this helps me understand even more clearly that no matter how f-ed up we all are, at the end of the day, we are all family. So 'taking' is just distributing it to brothers/sisters and future family members.

If you think in distinction, then yes, I agree with you.

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 Silver Dragon 
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liquidcci View Post
Let me say it again.



Wheres the Evil Corporations?
How many evil corporations can you find in the following pictures?:

October 11, 2011 - Edwin Durgy - Forbes

. The first pic is easy...

SD

nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.
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 liquidcci 
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bluemele View Post
Go find a homeless person, and just start talking to them. Find out how they think, why they think the way they do. What you will find is the invisible barriers scarring their brain from being like you or me. Is it that we should just throw these people away in our society, maybe put them to sleep?

Or is it the lazy bags who take up all the welfare benefits. Yes, those will always be the evil culprits. Much like there are with the rich (insider trading, white collar crimes to be never caught, bribery etc..).

I speak to homeless people every week. I have a non profit where we feed around 120 homeless guys each week and we partner with another group to get them off the street get job training etc.

As a society we should help others but the government mandating it is wrong imo. Plus the government is very inefficient at what they do and do not distribute to the real needs very well. The system is so gamed it is ridiculous. It is quite easy for these guys who are able bodied and able minded to get declared mentally disabled and get a monthly government check. It does not help these people become productive in life and leads to a perpetual welfare mentality. There are those on the streets who are truly crazy and need some serious help still others whose circumstances placed them there but they don't want to be on the streets. But it is surprising how many on the streets choose to be there. That being said I try not judge and just do what I can to help. I don't say this to toot my own horn I say to let you know where I am coming from.

I am sure some of the liberals on this board will fall out of their seats when they read this. Just hard to fathom a conservative tea party leaning futures trader could actually have a heart.

But that is not what these protest are really about. These protesters are not trying to be advocates for the homeless. They are advocating for themselves. They feel like it is just not right for someone to and have more than them. They by and large want the government to take from those who have and give it to them.

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 bluemele 
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liquidcci View Post
I speak to homeless people every week. I have a non profit where we feed around 120 homeless guys each week and we partner with another group to get them off the street get job training etc.

As a society we should help others but the government mandating it is wrong imo. Plus the government is very inefficient at what they do and do not distribute to the real needs very well. The system is so gamed it is ridiculous. It is quite easy for these guys who are able bodied and able minded to get declared mentally disabled and get a monthly government check. It does not help these people become productive in life and leads to a perpetual welfare mentality. There are those on the streets who are truly crazy and need some serious help still others whose circumstances placed them there but they don't want to be on the streets. But it is surprising how many on the streets choose to be there. That being said I try not judge and just do what I can to help. I don't say this to toot my own horn I say to let you know where I am coming from.

I am sure some of the liberals on this board will fall out of their seats when they read this. Just hard to fathom a conservative tea party leaning futures trader could actually have a heart.

But that is not what these protest are really about. These protesters are not trying to be advocates for the homeless. They are advocating for themselves. They feel like it is just not right for someone to and have more than them. They by and large want the government to take from those who have and give it to them.

That is great!!!! I agree the system is abused, but I would say it is even on both sides... Less government is good, no doubt, but how do you create less government and still control the other side of the fence from abuse?

I know I have so many 'friends' who if there were no laws would basically do anything except maybe rape, murder etc.. To me, that requires government. We will not fix the solution on this thread. Good to know where you are coming from, but disagree that people just want a handout. Poor people worker harder in my mind than do the uber-rich.

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
But that is not what these protest are really about. These protesters are not trying to be advocates for the homeless. They are advocating for themselves. They feel like it is just not right for someone to and have more than them. They by and large want the government to take from those who have and give it to them.

And how exactly do YOU know what these protests are about? From what the protestors are wearing and how old they are? Because they look scruffy compared to the people you play golf with? Because you can tell by looking at them on TV that they are self serving parasites, unlike the Banksters and JOB CREATORS who are Doing God's Work®?

You know what? Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winning economist, has endorsed the protests. I am sure you are a lot smarter than he is, so I will just accept your judgments without question.

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 drago1 
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Biinary arguments and false dochotomies (left vs right, rich/poor, evolution/creation, etc etc) stoke the emotional fires that so successfully get these threads off topic and the entire body politic into a frenzy. Here is left and right : anarchy and autocracy. The rest of that debate is smoke and mirrors.

There are the .1% rich ( Gates, Buffet, Tepper ) and then there is the old, old money but they are so rich they are off the radar. I do not believe for a minute that the old money families like Morgan, Rockefeller, Mellon, Dupont, Warburg. Rothschild, Edison, Fisher, Hearst, the major players of the first part of the 20th century have just drifted off to country clubs and trust fund heaven. These families ran the show for a long time and they were insanely wealthy a century ago. This a level of rich on a different planet than the nouveau riche ( Gates).
I find it interesting how the family names of such powerful old money are now invisible. I suspect these families have not lost interest in influencing the direction of public policy and public distractions as well. Its brilliant when you think about it. Good luck to the wall street protesters.

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 madLyfe 
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Zondor View Post
And how exactly do YOU know what these protests are about? From what the protestors are wearing and how old they are? Because they look scruffy compared to the people you play golf with? Because you can tell by looking at them on TV that they are self serving parasites, unlike the Banksters and JOB CREATORS who are Doing God's Work®?

You know what? Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winning economist, has endorsed the protests. I am sure you are a lot smarter than he is, so I will just accept your judgments without question.

(i have some of the same views they have, accept to me its a govt issue/size than anything to do with capitalism)

if we dont 'exactly' know, then how do you know? i can get a pretty good idea of their message from the interviews ive seen.. i dont listen to what other people tell me they are about..

u can look however you want to in america, thats the amazing part.. you can also be protesting about how lifes not fair, and blaming others, instead of doing whatever you physically, emotionally, mentally can to better yourself and your community.. living in america it seems like its always someone elses fault. gimmie, gimmie, gimmie..

growing up in school they thought us to not listen to what others say about us, and it only matters whats inside that counts.. to me thats bs.. id rather have pride, take care of, look presentable, and among other things have a level a self respect that combined with the will can propel you anywhere you want to go and help anyone you can along the way..

i see life like a football game, be as determined as possible to be prepared and skilled enough to conquer it on your own.. dont leave it in the refs hands to be able to decide the game..


dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
living in america it seems like its always someone elses fault. gimmie, gimmie, gimmie..


You're right, it's nobody's fault that the banksters and their wholly owned politicians crashed and burned the economy and looted the wealth and the future prospects of the 99.9%, INCLUDING YOU, with their idiotic, reckless, traitorous and illegal scams.

Oh, wait. I get it now! It must be THE PROTESTORS' FAULT!

Why can't we all just get along? Why can't those protestors just go home and starve peacefully without interrupting the Fox programming that I crave of the Herman Cain 9-9-9® Plan, and Dancing With The Stars®?

...I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND that it is too challenging to learn the rules that I learned in 7th grade about the use of the apostrophe in contractions and possessives, that would be expecting too much.... but I did think that EVERYONE knew that there is only one i in Gimme

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 madLyfe 
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Zondor View Post
You're right, it's nobody's fault that the banksters and their wholly owned politicians crashed and burned the economy and looted the wealth and the future prospects of the 99.9%, INCLUDING YOU, with their idiotic, reckless, traitorous and illegal scams. Why can't we all just get along? Why can't those protestors just go home and starve peacefully without interrupting the Fox programming that I crave of the Herman Cain 9-9-9® Plan, and Dancing With The Stars®?

...It seems like it's too difficult to learn the rules that I learned in 7th grade about the use of the apostrophe in contractions and possessives, that would be expecting too much....

well from my post you would understand that i was exactly saying if you are able to be taken out by someone else, especially in america, look at what you did wrong.. maybe you didnt play the game right.. accountability.. dont give the refs the opportunity to decide the outcome of your game..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
well from my post you would understand that i was exactly saying if you are able to be taken out by someone else, especially in america, look at what you did wrong.. maybe you didnt play the game right.. accountability.. dont give the refs the opportunity to decide the outcome of your game.


That sounds incoherent. One game I did play right was the one called "Language Arts" in Junior High School!

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 madLyfe 
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Zondor View Post
That sounds incoherent.

maybe.. im sure there are plenty of people here who understand my point..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 forrestang 
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You guys being upset at 'greedy bankers' or lenders for taking advantage of an environment initially fostered by government, is like being pissed at a brown bear you cornered after he takes your face off.

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 Zondor 
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madLyfe View Post
maybe.. im sure there are plenty of people here who understand my point..

Oh, I get it now! When someone is taken out to dinner they should be gracious to the host and refrain from yelling at the referee on the TV screen showing the football game!

I understand your point: Winner take all and will everyone else just please die quietly. And you think of yourself as a winner, but if you aren't a beneficiary of the scams and aren't up there with the billionaires, you are just another sucker.

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r3algood
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forrestang View Post
You guys being upset at 'greedy bankers' or lenders for taking advantage of an environment initially fostered by government, is like being pissed at a brown bear you cornered after he takes your face off.

Is there a way to "double-thank" or even "triple-thank" a post?

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 madLyfe 
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Zondor View Post
Oh, I get it now! When someone is taken out to dinner they should be gracious to the host and refrain from yelling at the referee on the TV screen showing the football game!

I understand your point, winner take all and you think of yourself as a winner, but if you aren't up there with the billionaires, you are just another sucker.

if u can eat, live, be healthy and take care of ur family and community, why does that make u a sucker?

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 liquidcci 
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Zondor View Post
And how exactly do YOU know what these protests are about? From what the protestors are wearing and how old they are? Because they look scruffy compared to the people you play golf with? Because you can tell by looking at them on TV that they are self serving parasites, unlike the Banksters and JOB CREATORS who are Doing God's Work®?

You know what? Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winning economist, has endorsed the protests. I am sure you are a lot smarter than he is, so I will just accept your judgments without question.

Zondor no need to get nasty. Personal attacks really not needed.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
You guys being upset at 'greedy bankers' or lenders for taking advantage of an environment initially fostered by government, is like being pissed at a brown bear you cornered after he takes your face off.

And who was it exactly who was operating the strings of the Poli-puppets who fostered that environment? The Lobbyists for the Soup Kitchens? Unspecified "liberals"?

I thought it was pretty clear who Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm, and the other crooks of that ilk worked for, but I must be wrong.

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 forrestang 
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r3algood View Post
Is there a way to "double-thank" or even "triple-thank" a post?

If only..... see if you can think of another analogy for the situation. Here's another one:

Being angry at a GREEDY lender that had all of their risk removed and backed by the government who no longer had to worry about risk is like.......

Being mad at a hooker who gave you an STD.... AFTER paying her to 'work' without any form of protection

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 liquidcci 
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Personally I think there are some who should have gone to jail that fostered the financial crisis. But they were to cozy with Pelosi and Obama. Funny how the liberals embrace the protesters when they take money from the bankers. Obama more than any President in history. Can get nasty and slam the Right but the Left are covered in their own you know what.


One of the themes in these protest is not to only make those bankers pay. But make all rich people pay and spread the wealth around. This is much about much more than making some greedy bankers pay. They want a socialist system.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 forrestang 
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Zondor View Post
And who was it exactly who was operating the strings of the Poli-puppets who fostered that environment? The Lobbyists for the Soup Kitchens? Unspecified "liberals"?

B/C some politician gets something from a lobbyist is NOT an excuse to tank the economy.

That's like a police officer hiding murder evidence for a suspect, and then later being caught and using the excuse, "Well he payed me to do it!"

The buck stops at the politician. They are responsible for their actions.

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 liquidcci 
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Zondor if the protesters knew what you did for a living they would come beat your door down and force you to share your profits.

Trading connects you to "evil" they want to vaporize whether you like it or not.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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r3algood
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My issue with the whole occupy wall street nonsense is how they want to bring the rich down instead of elevating themselves...

Everyone wants to be rich, or at least have enough money to live very comfortably.

Instead of penalizing people who have "made it", why not try and elevate themselves (occupy wall street hipsters) to a higher place?

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 Tiberius 
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The Warning | FRONTLINE | PBS Video

this is why they are protesting, but they don't know it.............

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r3algood
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r3algood View Post
My issue with the whole occupy wall street nonsense is how they want to bring the rich down instead of elevating themselves...

Everyone wants to be rich, or at least have enough money to live very comfortably.

Instead of penalizing people who have "made it", why not try and elevate themselves (occupy wall street hipsters) to a higher place?

The Civil Rights Movement wasnt about bringing white people down.. It was about elevating the status of african americans..

Why cant this be the same way?

Oh I forgot.. ENTITLEMENTS... Bunch of people feeling entitled to having lots of money and then all of a sudden realizing "wow I'll never be a millionaire, I thought everyone was supposed to become one?".

Now, I do agree with some who say illegal things happened and still happen in our financial industry, but until OWS recognizes that as there only cause count me out.

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r3algood
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r3algood View Post
The Civil Rights Movement wasnt about bringing white people down.. It was about elevating the status of african americans..

Why cant this be the same way?

Oh I forgot.. ENTITLEMENTS... Bunch of people feeling entitled to having lots of money and then all of a sudden realizing "wow I'll never be a millionaire, I thought everyone was supposed to become one?".

Now, I do agree with some who say illegal things happened and still happen in our financial industry, but until OWS recognizes that as there only cause count me out.

CNBC

"Rose Swidden came to Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan from upstate New York, where she is studying agriculture at SUNY Cobleskill. She expects to graduate in May with $35,000 in debt, and doesn't know how she will pay it back.

"We did what we were told to do: go to college, get an education, you'll get a job, you'll get a house, you'll be cool," she said. "And that's what we did. And now here we are done with it—and now what?""

Well that sucks lady, I'm sorry

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r3algood
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CNBC
and doesn't know how she will pay it back.


Maybe with a **** job?

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 forrestang 
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r3algood View Post
Maybe with a **** job?

EDIT----
See, these people are morons. These guys could probably do things to actually effect the cost of education for people and do some good. That type of grievance has no business on Wall Street. Why aren't they on their college campus protesting the people that made sure that tuition costs have outpaced the rate of inflation by more than a factor of two?

People are quick to villify 'big oil,' simply because it's an easy target. Yet nobody has ever returned a gallon of gas, and you get EXACTLY what you pay for.

But what about 'big education?' Society makes us feel like we MUST send everybody to college, we put all types of subsidies into it, not everyone gets what they are promised from it, and they still hyper inflate the prices. Why won't these fools go start there? When are people going to stand up to 'big education?'

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 Zondor 
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Congress' approval rating with the general public is a bit over 10%. Do you really think that among the protesters, it's 100%????



Quoting 
Any attempt by the left to say that the free market is all bad and the government is all good is naive and counter-productive.

And any attempt by the right to say that we should leave the giant banks alone because that’s the free market are wrong.

The [corrupt, captured government "regulators"] and the giant banks are part of a single malignant, symbiotic relationship.



Conservatives and Liberals Agree: End the Malignant, Symbiotic Relationship Between Big Government and Big Corporations | ZeroHedge

http://www.msn.com/

And as for the "loosers" (Don't blame me! That's how they spell it here!) who have been "taken out of the game"... well that's just too bad, I've got mine so they can fend for themselves. Aw too bad, he could have gone to China and gotten a job as an I-Slave or a coal miner. Nobody wants to work anymore. Crybaby!
The Daily Nightly - Unemployment's toll: 'I feel like less of a man'

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 drago1 
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FBI Considered "It's A Wonderful Life" Communist Propaganda | Wise Bread

COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY
(RUNNING MEMORANDUM)

There is submitted herewith the running memorandum concerning Communist infiltration of the motion picture industry which has been brought up to date as of May 26, 1947....
With regard to the picture "It's a Wonderful Life", [redacted] stated in substance that the film represented rather obvious attempts to discredit bankers by casting Lionel Barrymore as a "scrooge-type" so that he would be the most hated man in the picture. This, according to these sources, is a common trick used by Communists
addition, [redacted] stated that, in his opinion, this picture deliberately maligned the upper class, attempting to show the people who had money were mean and despicable characters. [redacted] related that if he made this picture portraying the banker, he would have shown this individual to have been following the rules as laid down by the State Bank Examiner in connection with making loans. Further, [redacted] stated that the scene wouldn't have "suffered at all" in portraying the banker as a man who was protecting funds put in his care by private individuals and adhering to the rules governing the loan of that money rather than portraying the part as it was shown. In summary, [redacted] stated that it was not necessary to make the banker such a mean character and "I would never have done it that way."

The old money has been on guard duty for a long time.

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
When are people going to stand up to 'big education?'


Why didn't anyone stand up to 'big real estate' when house prices were going hyperbolic and the HOMEOWNERS®, banksters, mortgage brokers, Realtors® homebuilders, and related parasites were in perpetual millionaire nirvana mode?

Like "health insurance", the education RACKET is a classic scam where the availability of what looks like free money drives up the costs to levels that are insane, but the stakes are too high for most people to be able to not play the game. Most of the players are being blackmailed into participation for fear of being left behind.

Incentivizing the providers of the free money with government guarantees that insulate them from credit risk ensures that costs will rise far beyond any economically justifiable level. The astronomical costs lead to increasing economic stratification, making life more secure for the scions of the wealthy who face decreasing competition from the Untermenschen. So at least something good comes of it!

Eventually all bubbles burst..... but the markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

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 bluemele 
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forrestang View Post
EDIT----
See, these people are morons. These guys could probably do things to actually effect the cost of education for people and do some good. That type of grievance has no business on Wall Street. Why aren't they on their college campus protesting the people that made sure that tuition costs have outpaced the rate of inflation by more than a factor of two?

People are quick to villify 'big oil,' simply because it's an easy target. Yet nobody has ever returned a gallon of gas, and you get EXACTLY what you pay for.

But what about 'big education?' Society makes us feel like we MUST send everybody to college, we put all types of subsidies into it, not everyone gets what they are promised from it, and they still hyper inflate the prices. Why won't these fools go start there? When are people going to stand up to 'big education?'

Yah, what he said! (As I carry my torch closer to my face!)

You are right. You could reach out to any measure of life (education, oil, unions, government, bankers, etc..) it is such a tangled web. I am checking out of this thread because I highly doubt it will open up anyone's eyes and they will change their 'spirit'.

I still like my idea of limiting politicians! That is the only productive suggestion I have seen that I think everyone would agree is GOOD for any social group!

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 Zondor 
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Do 'Occupy Wall Street' Protests Represent Your Views Of The Economy? | Fox News

These results may surprise you.

Now about the fortification of the Paradise Cadillac Glen Golden Egret Eagle Sandy Shady Salty Oakes Dorchester Dulles Delightful Washington Westchester Westminster Wartsila Pointe Executive Exclsive Golf Leisure Community or wherever you fuddy duddies out there live.... better get busy, barbed wire is going to be in short supply and it is a long lead time item coming from China.

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 Cloudy 
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I was surprised that it wasn't 50/50. The high cost of college is just one problem with our educating the workforce problem. The main problem is that global multinationals aren't training Americans at entry level anymore. Even college graduates need entry level or internship programs to get somewhere. Instead the technologies and training are gone to factories, foreign personnel, and offices overseas. And all we have left for citizens here are bull "institutes of tech" farms such as ITT, Full Sail, and DeVry staffed with nauseating salesmen/counselors. Well one could maybe still get into accounting, finance, and sales. But the job sectors of science, tech, and manufacturing have not had a demand for an entry level workforce in some time on U.S. soil.

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
Well one could maybe still get into accounting, finance, and sales. But the job sectors of science, tech, and manufacturing have not had a demand for an entry level workforce in some time on U.S. soil.

Almost all white collar jobs can now be offshored via the magic of the Internet. So much for accounting and finance, at least for the back office jobs that account for the big numbers of employees.


charles hugh smith-The "End of Work" and the Coming Revolution in Education


Quoting 
As noted yesterday, what we really have in the U.S. is a corporate-colonial economy ruled by financial oligarchies and their minions in the Central State. Look no further than student loans which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy to dispel any doubts you may entertain about this.

The domestic populace is indentured colonial labor to the Central State, Finance, Corporate America and the Education "industry." Want a "good job" in the government or Corporate America? Then you need that four-year university degree credential, and that of course is gonna cost you.


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r3algood
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Enjoy


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 Big Mike 
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liquidcci View Post
Let me say it again.


Well not to over simplify, but for me protesting corporate greed is simply that corporate profits are at all time highs, while foreclosures and unemployment are also at record levels.

This means corporations are not supporting Americans, when they choose to send jobs overseas in order to make more profit.

In this country, it used to mean something to "Buy American" or "Made in the USA". These days it is next to impossible to buy anything "Made in the USA".

If these protesters showed up naked with sandwiches they made at home, aren't they still supporting Kraft? Unless they have their own farm, and then they are supporting the corporations who buy the crops. So its hard to really understand the usefulness of your image imo.

To me the protests are simply a way of saying "enough is enough", "start supporting Americans again and don't be so greedy". Sure there are tons of idiots protesting. There are tons of idiots, period. I wouldn't expect the ratio to dramatically shift. But the reason people are protesting in the first place is because they are unhappy with the way they are being treated.

But naturally corporations are not entirely to blame. Only when Americans will purposely buy American, even at higher expense, will things change. Only when Americans care less about The Emmys and more about whether or not their retirement fund will exist, will things change.

I think the problem is somewhat symbolic of our education system. Every President in modern times as stood up and said "America needs to be #1 in education, and we will be". No we won't. Throwing money at the problem clearly is not the answer. The enormous shift over the course of two to three generations is not about money. It is about family. Look at how your parents and grandparents were raised vs how you were raised or how you are raising your own children. Now compare the average kids life here, hour for hour in a week, to an average life of a child from Japan, and there is an enormous difference in terms of their "social life" vs hard work, education, discipline, etc.

Zondor said the approval rating for congress is 10%. Yet we continue to elect them. Why do you suppose that is?

Mike

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 forrestang 
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Big Mike View Post

Zondor said the approval rating for congress is 10%. Yet we continue to elect them. Why do you suppose that is?

Mike

Simply because congress is a faceless group. I.e if you ask the average person to name 5 congress persons, or even THEIR OWN congress personel, they usually can't. So typically when people are polled about them, it is easier to just give negative opinions on a group of faceless people.

This is different than the white house where everyone knows who that one individual is.

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 kbit 
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It could be a very interesting scene at Occupy Wall Street this Friday.

Azi Paybarah at Capital New York reports that the owners of Zuccotti Square, Brookfield Properties has sent a letter to the NYPD asking for help in clearing and cleaning the park for "sanitation" purposes.
And though Bloomberg doesn't want to forcibly remove everyone, he has asked that the protesters leave Friday for "cleaning" the park, after which they can return.
We'd be pretty surprised if anything like a temporary cleaning of the park goes smoothly, or if protesters willingly go along with the cleaning (again, even if it's temporary).
So something dramatic could happen.
Also worth noting is that Bloomberg visited the park yesterday, a gesture seen by some there as impressive.

>
>
They'll probably start rioting now

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 drago1 
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In Jane Jacobs book the Death and Life of Great American Cities she notes the vitality of any city is evidenced by the number of pedestrians on the sidewalks. If sidewalks are full , it suggests people feel safe. When people are in regular face to face contact - small shops etc - you build a sense of community.

In a society where everyone moves in fast moving vehicles behind locked doors looking thru glass windows - everyone is an independent actor and it is thin line between cooperation and competition on the busy roads. Most new "communities " do not even have common spaces, side walks. This is all subtle but it creates distance, distrust . We become xenophobic. Tribal."Gated" Communities are perfect example .

The term communal has now become subversive in America. Nationalism is for Europeans but in America we are patriots. It is all mind games to divide and conquer. I would bet my life that 99.9% of the population who call Obama a socialist or communist never read Karl Marx. The utility of hot button terminology again gets people off the point. Most with nary a clue as to what they are actually defending.

If nothing more than connecting with others is accomplished thru the Wall Street protests, it is a good foundation for change. Survivalists miss the point in apocalytpic hoarding. We need each other. I applaude and celebrate BigMikes as a model for community that works.

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 harvester 
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Tiberius View Post
The Warning | FRONTLINE | PBS Video

this is why they are protesting, but they don't know it.............

Thanks for posting this video, about the unheeded warnings of securitizing and trading subprime debt. If someone was warning back then about subprime, everyone should be quite concerned right now about PrimeX. This is another securitized, derivative index related to prime (higher rated) debt and is traded by those with pretty sizable accounts (i.e. banks).

Here is a good primer on PrimeX. Be sure to click on the video, it's a bit easier to follow than the article.

PrimeX has been dropping and dropping, and the credit default swaps (CDS) insuring these things, are at very high levels. Yes, people who supposedly can still afford to pay mortgages are quickly falling into the ranks of those who can't, and it's getting worse by the week (by the day??). If PrimeX breaches certain critical support levels (which we are very close to currently), then it's hard to imagine a soft landing. I can't really comprehend what kind of TARP, son of TARP, or QE-to-infinity that the government and the Feds would be able to cook up if banks are are found sitting on trillions of dollars of prime debt gone bad.

So to second Tiberius, and in agreement of what is at the heart of the problem inspiring these protests. All the government spending, money printing, bailouts, handouts, etc., can be linked back to the original problem. Namely lots of people going into excessive debt who were/are unable (for whatever reason), to make the payments. Secondly, allowing this debt - good or bad, to be bundled into securitized and tradeable instruments IMHO should have never been legal.

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 madLyfe 
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Occupy Wall Street Protester Wants College Paid For Because That's What He Wants - YouTube

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
In 2009, if you were to add up the total fortune of America's richest 400 people, that amount—$1.27 trillion—would be more than the holdings of the bottom 50 percent of Americans, less than $1.22 trillion. Thats the top .0000035 % have more wealth than the bottom 50%.


Quoting 
"Four hundred obscenely wealthy individuals, 400 little Mubaraks -- most of whom benefited in some way from the multi-trillion-dollar taxpayer bailout of 2008 -- now have more cash, stock and property than the assets of 155 million Americans combined."

That's not enough. The top 400 deserve better than that. Unlike YOU, they worked hard for their money, so they deserve your money, too! Their wealth should be a source of PRIDE to the protesters. The taxes paid by those 400 need to be cut, NOW. A 9% tax rate for those folks would be, if anything, TOO HIGH. Wake up, Herman! These people are our Royalty. They should receive money raised by taxing the serfs, not pay taxes.

We all should sympathize and identify with those top 400 since we all aspire to be in that group some day, DON'T WE? Let's see.. if I can top the Velocity Leaderboard every day at around $300,000, in just five hundred years I will have enough money to be allowed to shine David Koch's shoes....

Maybe the concentration of wealth has something to do with the fact that most of our cities and towns are starting to look like they have been bombed out. But who cares, that's why god (Ronald Reagan) gave us Fortified Golf Communities.


Quoting 
With that caveat, our assessment indicates that as of 2009, the net worth of the nation’s 400 wealthiest individuals exceeds the net worth of half of all American households.

We rate Moore’s statement True.

https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/10/michael-moore/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

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 Mickey Caine 
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As these four hundred seem do despised, I wonder would the good Old U S of A be in a better position today had they all been born elsewhere. Apple could be French for example and called Le Crunch!!.
I'm sure your Country must have benefited somewhere or other by having Mr William Gates as one of it's number. Or perhaps I'm wrong.

Another puzzlement is, how much money is obscene??. I notice that the saintly spiritual leader of the liberal pack (Mr M Moore) Had a net worth of some $50 Million. Is that amount known as just mere soft porn perhaps. I am perplexed!!

I also have noted the irony in the use of the word Liberal by people of this, shall we say, political leaning. The word implies someone who is generous in temperament or behaviour, tolerant of other people, traits that I note from this thread are sadly lacking.

Anyway, I'm off for a round of Golf!!! (Sorry Zonder)

Best wishes to one and all.

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 forrestang 
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Zondor View Post
That's not enough. The top 400 deserve better than that. Unlike YOU, they worked hard for their money, so they deserve your money, too! ..............The taxes paid by those 400 need to be cut, NOW. A 9% tax rate for those folks would be, if anything, TOO HIGH. Wake up, Herman! These people are our Royalty. They should receive money raised by taxing the serfs, not pay taxes.

Why do you always have to be so dramatic with your sentiment? With the talk of royalty, and giving someone with money special treatment? Nobody that disagrees with you thinks the rich should be allowed to keep MORE of their private property than someone with less money, or special rights for the rich.

None of it is necessary, how about everyone just be taxed the same rate and everyone pays their fair share? Whats so wrong with everyone having the same expectation to THEIR own private property as everyone else?

That idea is just too simple right?

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 futuretrader 
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drago1 View Post
In Jane Jacobs book the Death and Life of Great American Cities she notes the vitality of any city is evidenced by the number of pedestrians on the sidewalks. If sidewalks are full , it suggests people feel safe. When people are in regular face to face contact - small shops etc - you build a sense of community.

In a society where everyone moves in fast moving vehicles behind locked doors looking thru glass windows - everyone is an independent actor and it is thin line between cooperation and competition on the busy roads. Most new "communities " do not even have common spaces, side walks. This is all subtle but it creates distance, distrust . We become xenophobic. Tribal."Gated" Communities are perfect example .

The term communal has now become subversive in America. Nationalism is for Europeans but in America we are patriots. It is all mind games to divide and conquer. I would bet my life that 99.9% of the population who call Obama a socialist or communist never read Karl Marx. The utility of hot button terminology again gets people off the point. Most with nary a clue as to what they are actually defending.

If nothing more than connecting with others is accomplished thru the Wall Street protests, it is a good foundation for change. Survivalists miss the point in apocalytpic hoarding. We need each other. I applaude and celebrate BigMikes as a model for community that works.

Good post, but unfortunately Big Mike's is a virtual community, not one you can live in. I see you're in Windsor - I'm currently in Southern Ontario, among other things to see how I'd feel about living here. I have to say I find the continuing spread of highways, subdivisions and shopping malls filled with chain stores very bleak. It seems a perverse paradox that the pursuit of 'rugged individualism' should have lead to such lifeless repetition. I can see why people are so focused on consumption of more junk; their environment is so devoid of any real satisfaction - which largely comes from community and meaningful work.

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