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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests


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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests

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  #201 (permalink)
 Tarkus11 
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One of the problems with OWS is a vagueness in direction.

A trader (without insider info) has to take responsibility for his/her trades - and either succeed or goes bust.

The easiest reply to anyone accusing otherwise is to say "I never got a government or backdoor (a la AIG) bailout." It is (or should be) those people and companies that the anger is directed toward. A generalization beyond that is ignorance.

The MERS/robo-signing is probably one of the more serious transgressions by the banks because it has the ability to destroy property rights. Without clear transfer of title, there is no real legal ownership, as the legal case in Massachusetts showed. You can buy a house, pay for it and think you own it, but because the bank did not handle the historical paperwork properly, you don't really own it. Getting title insurance on a purchase would be a bit of a stickler too. The banks have to follow a legal process in that fiasco, or the Law goes to the highest bidder.

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  #202 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Good video, ZT. Now I think I finally know something, and I don't feel like smiling anymore.

Tarkus, why do you think the "Justice Department" is pressuring the States Attorneys General to make a settlement with the banksters for a pittance, in exchange for a complete release from any CIVIL and CRIMINAL liability? That's OUTRAGEOUS.

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  #203 (permalink)
 zt379 
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Good video, ZT. Now I think I finally know something, and I don't feel like smiling anymore.

Ha.....nice one.....just give it another moment...

There's a mention in the video of "from Gordon to David" so it's a UK reference, but we get the idea.
It's difficult for me to comment on what's happening in the US.
It's good to hear peoples thoughts via this thread (thanks).
Looking at the equivalents through Europe, whilst on the same general theme, I think are of a different tone.

PS:
If "Ming The Merciless" can give us a smile, there's hope for us all.....

Cheers

"Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile..." zt379
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  #204 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Excellent video ZT. Morpheus could not have said it any better. Time for everyone to wake up. History is and has always been written by the victors. And I 'll have another red pill please.

And as and aside. Josh if you are out there still reading these posts. Pot is good for you - . The science is there to prove it and when you thought you were insulting me I could only laugh. If you only knew the half of it. Pot smokers however are not easily herded into the mindless consumer camp. They instead are herded into jail. Ironically, the largest working class union in California is the prison guards union. They lobbied on behalf of the three strikes and your out legislation. Job security. Talk about Stockholm syndrome or what. And now congress wants to take anti drug laws even further.

The House Judiciary Committee passed a bill on 10/09/11 that would make it a federal crime for U.S. residents to discuss or plan activities on foreign soil that, if carried out in the U.S., would violate the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) -- even if the planned activities are legal in the countries where they're carried out. H.R. 313, the "Drug Trafficking Safe Harbor Elimination Act of 2011," is sponsored by Judiciary Committee Chairman Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas), and allows prosecutors to bring conspiracy charges against anyone who discusses, plans or advises someone else to engage in any activity that violates the CSA, the massive federal law that prohibits drugs like marijuana and strictly regulates prescription medication. The thought police have arrived.

"Dissent, is the greatest form of patriotism". Thomas Jefferson.

Lets hope we never lose that freedom.

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  #205 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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drago1 View Post
And as and aside. Josh if you are out there still reading these posts. Pot is good for you - . The science is there to prove it and when you thought you were insulting me I could only laugh. If you only knew the half of it. Pot smokers however are not easily herded into the mindless consumer camp. They instead are herded into jail. Ironically, the largest working class union in California is the prison guards union. They lobbied on behalf of the three strikes and your out legislation. Job security. Talk about Stockholm syndrome or what. And now congress wants to take anti drug laws even further.

Pot is for the unwashed masses! One should rather cleanse the "doors of perception"!

LSD: The Geek's Wonder Drug?

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  #206 (permalink)
 drago1 
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I agree and disagree Lornz. High THC content cannibus (30%) can be pretty door rattling. I am not sure the synthetics have quite the same depth of experience as plant entheogens. Either way , definitely resets your compass and we all need that once in a while. Thanks for your comments. Cheers.

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  #207 (permalink)
 furytrader 
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Quoting 
"Btw FuryTrader, do you really think futures traders like you and ME are part of the tiny sliver of the upper hundredths of the top 1% who have been pulling all the strings that led to our economic collapse? That OWS is going to come after us because WE are parasites? As a trader, why do you think you would be held responsible for revolving door corruption, and systemic control fraud in the TBTF banks? Why should OWS have anything against you/me? WE don't matter. We are part of the 99%, or more accurately, the 99.99%."

Just because you're not a multimillionaire trader (yet) doesn't mean that you're not (in their eyes) a willing participant of a corrupt system that puts self-interest over altruism, speculation over "honest work" (whatever they deem that to be), and needlessly introduces risk into the economy. It's not a question of scale. It's a question of intent and motivation. Whether you're trading a 1 lot or 500 lots, it's all the same to them. Try explaining what you do to the typical OWSer and see what their response is.

Finally, do you honestly believe that there is some shadowy cabal of bankers, politicians, traders and others who deliberately "pulled the strings" to lead to an economic collapse? Really?

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  #208 (permalink)
 furytrader 
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Quoting 
"A trader (without insider info) has to take responsibility for his/her trades - and either succeed or goes bust.

The easiest reply to anyone accusing otherwise is to say "I never got a government or backdoor (a la AIG) bailout." It is (or should be) those people and companies that the anger is directed toward. A generalization beyond that is ignorance."

Do you think that every bank that was forced to take money from the US Government in 2008 actually needed it? No - in fact, there were banks that didn't want money from the US Treasury but Hank Paulson forced them to take it. Why? Because in the time of crisis, we had gone beyond the level of "Bank XYZ is in trouble" - instead, we were at the point where the viability of entire system had been called into doubt. By shoring up the entire system, the government attempted to restore confidence to market participants. And as a trader, you're part of that "system" so you, in effect, received a bailout. Whether you wanted it or not, and whether you needed it or not.

Another way to look at it is this: let's say that the US Treasury was right about the systemic risk but didn't force banks to take US capital ... and let's say the system collapsed. Counterparties failed, exchange clearing houses failed, and all the financial markets froze up. As a trader, you would be affected by that, right? The fact that this didn't happen ostensibly because the US government "bailed out the banks" means that, indirectly, you were bailed out too.

It also means that the Main Street was bailed out as well. When I look at the placards of the OWSers who say, "The banks got their bailouts, what about mine?" I have to laugh - believe me, if all of the major banks in the US had failed, as regulators feared, the distress would have traveled far beyond Wall Street, and the quality of life in this country and around the world would be a lot lower than it is now.

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  #209 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Furytrader, regulators are pathological liars. I really think the best thing that could have happened is that this whole facade came crashing down and we started from what remains. Germany managed to recover and flourish and it was blown to bits after WWII. Americans are bright and resilient people. don.t sell them short. Yes it will be painful but that is the always the problem with any false high - the trip down is a bitch. There is also a long history of threats to society that never panned out to be true - Vietnam was greatest threat to humanity and Iraq WMDs are two that come to mind. So who really knows what would have happend?

So either way we managed to kick the can down the road for a little while longer. I think the real bail out the banks got was suspension of mark to market accounting. The authorization to lie about their true solvency. That was when the market turned around. Our day of reckoning will happen inevitably and with all this nonsense in Europe that changes by the minute it could be sooner than we think. The longer this goes on - the more painful it will be.

And with regard to an older post. Prosecutions in my mind means jail time from a trial and jury. Paying corporate fines really does not amount to much in terms of curbing illegal behaviour especially if it is a fraction of what you stole - Angelo Mosilo for example. I admit to having an unfair posting advantage time wise - I cannot work without access to my trading account.

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  #210 (permalink)
 Tarkus11 
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Do you think that every bank that was forced to take money from the US Government in 2008 actually needed it? No - in fact, there were banks that didn't want money from the US Treasury but Hank Paulson forced them to take it. Why? Because in the time of crisis, we had gone beyond the level of "Bank XYZ is in trouble" - instead, we were at the point where the viability of entire system had been called into doubt. By shoring up the entire system, the government attempted to restore confidence to market participants. And as a trader, you're part of that "system" so you, in effect, received a bailout. Whether you wanted it or not, and whether you needed it or not.

Another way to look at it is this: let's say that the US Treasury was right about the systemic risk but didn't force banks to take US capital ... and let's say the system collapsed. Counterparties failed, exchange clearing houses failed, and all the financial markets froze up. As a trader, you would be affected by that, right? The fact that this didn't happen ostensibly because the US government "bailed out the banks" means that, indirectly, you were bailed out too.

It also means that the Main Street was bailed out as well. When I look at the placards of the OWSers who say, "The banks got their bailouts, what about mine?" I have to laugh - believe me, if all of the major banks in the US had failed, as regulators feared, the distress would have traveled far beyond Wall Street, and the quality of life in this country and around the world would be a lot lower than it is now.


All of that may be true - but think about it from the opposite view for a moment.

That means that the system is set up to actually FAVOR large (gov't back-stopped) financial companies creating more crisis because their payout remains asymetrical - all upside, no downside. Downside gets passed-on to Main Street. Government sucks up the losses.

By that reckoning, they should increase leverage, because the next bailout will also be to save Main Street.

You can assign a name to a system like that, but I don't think it would be Capitalism.

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  #211 (permalink)
 Mickey Caine 
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  #212 (permalink)
 furytrader 
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Quoting 
"All of that may be true - but think about it from the opposite view for a moment.

That means that the system is set up to actually FAVOR large (gov't back-stopped) financial companies creating more crisis because their payout remains asymetrical - all upside, no downside. Downside gets passed-on to Main Street. Government sucks up the losses.

By that reckoning, they should increase leverage, because the next bailout will also be to save Main Street.

You can assign a name to a system like that, but I don't think it would be Capitalism."

I agree - the whole idea of having "too big to fail" is dangerous and not in the spirit of capitalism at all. If I could wave a magic wand, I would have everything trade on exchanges - where prices are transparent and rules for collateral are clear and unambiguous. Instead, what we have are OTC markets dominated by a few large players who make markets as they see fit - it is not the most liquid or most competitive solution at all.

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  #213 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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I just sent a message to my US Senator asking why Bob Rubin, Larry Summers and Phil Gramm aren't in jail for their illegal, destructive actions that caused destruction dwarfing that caused by our friend Bernie, who is in for 150 years.

Too Big to Jail | Truthout

Based on Obama's approach to financial regulation, Bernie should now be Treasury Secretary rather than a permanent Federal guest. You can't really say that Timmie's ethics are any higher than Bernie's. Does this make YOU want to protest anything? Especially since the Republican choices, with the possible exception of Ron Paul, would be WORSE.

Sorry Mickey, 99.99% of the mice are drowning. Milton Friedman was one of the biggest jackasses and lying whores of all time. There, I said it. Chicago School economics is a malevolent religious cult. The only substance behind it is "faith based" promotion and justification of control of the world by banksters. His prescriptions got us to where we are now. Is that a good place?

You can find some HONEST economists here: https://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/

There are other things going on behind the scenes in plain sight. Economic stresses are a reflection of a larger instability due to environmental degradation and resource depletion, so all of this may be water under the bridge anyway. Are any of you familiar with, or members of this Club?*
ClubOrlov: Stages of Collapse Revised: “Joined at the Wallet”

Yes, I know. I should be doing less ranting here and more in my trading journal. Maybe soon..... Has anyone seen my recently posted indicators?

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  #214 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Simon and Garfunkel The Boxer (Original) - YouTube

Zondor, double cheers on the Milton Friedman comment.

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  #215 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Our current system is doomed regardless of the presence or absence of any protest movements. The further the can is kicked down the road, the more precipitous and catastrophic will be the inevitable collapse.

charles hugh smith-The Collapse of Our Corrupt, Predatory, Pathological Financial System Is Necessary and Positive


The Chicago Boys have the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands. You can thank them for the Death Squads of Central and South America, for starters.

Did you ever notice that some of the most rabid right wing nut jobs were left wing Stalinist nut jobs when they were kids? This transition is so common that there is a name for it. Think of the Podhoretz and Kristol families. Another good example is one of the biggest trouble makers and agitators of my own high school class, who was rather poorly regarded by his peers at the time.

Simplistic black and white thinkers tend to congregate at the extremes of the thought spectrum where they promote ideas that are based on religious, rather than logical, reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Muravchik


Quoting 
"Josh Muravchik’s father, Manny, eighty-five-years-old, breathing through oxygen tubes, [was] handing out his own two-page Xeroxed affirmation of socialism." "Manny let the reader know that his own life, and that of Josh’s mother, would be impossible today absent the very sort of anti-market reforms—Medicare, rent-controlled apartments—for which they’d worked while Josh was still a pisher and toward which he sounded at best ambivalent today." "Father told son that if there was utopian impulse to be feared, it was that messianic laissez-faire nonsense he must have picked up once he’d left home. You think your mother and I could survive in your perfect world, Mr. Capitalist Shill?[5]


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  #216 (permalink)
 drago1 
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In addition to being degruntled former socialists , they (neo conservatives), are almost exclusively chicken-hawks. (I think Donald Rumsfeld is one of the few exceptions. )War mongerers all somehow managed to avoid combat duty in Vietnam regardless of their political stripes.

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  #217 (permalink)
 Tarkus11 
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I agree - the whole idea of having "too big to fail" is dangerous and not in the spirit of capitalism at all. If I could wave a magic wand, I would have everything trade on exchanges - where prices are transparent and rules for collateral are clear and unambiguous. Instead, what we have are OTC markets dominated by a few large players who make markets as they see fit - it is not the most liquid or most competitive solution at all.

One of the reasons for all the irrational noise is that the people/companies that have the down-side of their action back-stopped by the government are not actually "traders" in the common use of the word. A trader can get either end of the stick depending on his own decisions.

What the people/companies that ARE back-stopped by the government are doing is hiding behind the legitimate traders, hoping to get a shine off the reflected glory of entrepreneurial spirit just by standing in the crowd.

Unfortunately, most OWS folks probably don't understand that, so there are certain to be some knuckleheads who shout more than think.

But, the simplest reply would be something like, "My losses are not back-stopped by the government. Your grievence is with ______." (Fill in the blank with people/companies that ARE back-stopped).

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  #218 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Tarkus I don't think that anytrader with a brain - backed or not backed by the government financially- could give a rat's ass about the glory of entrepreneurial spirit. Trader/lawyer/ accountant/politician/ - all pretty repulsive and I am in the group. At one time we served a function but not really anymore - eat or be eaten. We are predators or we are prey - and unless you keep that in mind you will quickly be the latter. There is nothing noble about this business. Recall the language - on the floor of the exchange it is the trading pit.
Our whole existence as traders is finding ways to take money from each other. Zero sum game. No glory - no real function - create nothing. Take a look in the mirror - if you are trader - this is your life. I need a valium now.

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  #219 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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Tarkus I don't think that anytrader with a brain - backed or not backed by the government financially- could give a rat's ass about the glory of entrepreneurial spirit. Trader/lawyer/ accountant/politician/ - all pretty repulsive and I am in the group. At one time we served a function but not really anymore - eat or be eaten.

Our whole existence as traders is finding ways to take money from each other. Zero sum game. No glory - no real function - create nothing. Take a look in the mirror - if you are trader - this is your life. I need a valium now.

You need to expand: "The whole existence of society is to take money from each other."

Companies make products to sell to other companies and to the consumer. The consumer works for the companies who make the products which in turns gives them money to buy products. The more skill and talent you have the more money you make. The better your company is at making products the consumers want the more money they will make. The people who participate in this are part of the "Occupy the Workforce" movement.

This by itself works quite well. The problem arises when the government wants to take the money the companies and consumers took from each other and call it "fair share" and then give it to people who have not contributed to the process. Or in the in the case of the protestors who are consumers, they want to get their money for nothing because they feel life is not fair! The goverment and protestors have a flawed view of the world. They believe they can keep taking and taking and all will be right with the world. The problem arises when there is nothing left to take or the people who make the products say fuck it and take thier products and money and go home. What then? Where will the money and products come from? I guess you could do what one protestor suggested and print your own money. lol

At some point we have started punishing people for succeeding. Drago, I think you pointed out in another thread that 90% of the people fail at what they do or just give up. At what point did it become the responsibility of the 10% to take care of the 90%? This is crazy!! You want money, house, a car? Then work for it!!! Become part of the solution not part of the problem. Just because you were born does not give you the right to someone elses hard earned money. LIFE IS NOT FAIR! THERE HAVE BEEN WINNERS AND LOSERS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME!! GROWUP AND GET OVER IT!! Although OWS protestors would obviously disagree with this.

SD

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  #220 (permalink)
 drago1 
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I never said the objective or purpose of society is take money from each other. I said very clearly that is that is the objective of a futures trader. We go into the trading pit or electronic pit and we go to war. This is not a tennis match. That is my point .When Tarkus was waxing sentimental about entrepreneurial spirit of being a trader I am trying to shout get a grip. Your job is take money from other traders. For every winner there is an equal loser . Hence the term zero sum game.

As far as OWS I never made a single mention of that group. I really don't care about that group. There are many of them. They all have their own issues.

I know that means I am techically off topic but I was only talking about trading. Trading is not a noble calling it is a gladiators arena. Either you come to kill or you are killed. I don't enjoy it but I don't particularly like people so perhaps I am so inclined.

Please simply read the text. As far as the lofty quote about trading being about the trade or whatever and the money will come. Good luck to you with that. I am here to take your money - that is the only reason. Good trading to you.

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  #221 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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Silver Dragon View Post
You need to expand: "The whole existence of society is to take money from each other."
The more skill and talent you have the more money you make.

Unfortunately we do not live in a meritocracy.

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 bluemele 
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Silver Dragon View Post
THERE HAVE BEEN WINNERS AND LOSERS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME!! GROWUP AND GET OVER IT!! Although OWS protestors would obviously disagree with this.

SD

I think that tends to be the main psychological difference where we differ. What defines a loser? What defines a winner?

What 'rules' will be placed on these people to define winning?

The challenge that I see with 'this system' is that it is rigged. It is rigged in favor of a certain type of or group of people while rigged against those that are not in that 'class' or trajectory.

Now, can you get out of that, YES, but it takes a generation or two to TYPICALLY build real wealth and a foundation of wealth. There are those that believe the world is a zero-sum game and that if someone is to have, that someone must take or give-up etc.. I do not believe Trading to be a zero-sum as everything is through a different context of time value of money.

We are all different, none of us will convince either of us to submit and say, "You are right, I have changed my ways or my thought patterns because of what you have typed".

There just stands a great philisophical debate of what is right or fare etc.. That feeling will change or be shaped contingent upon your genetic coding, your environment and how you evolve as a human being.

Some people truly choose to not work and are 'lazy', but a great many work 10x harder than any of us would dream and yet have fewer opportunities because of race, class, educational background etc.. etc..

Those people have a lot harder ladder to climb, but who is to blame for that? Not me right? Why should I pay for them to have that or be like that? Well, because so many before me paid their dues...

The Babilonians the Sumerians, the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Brits, Ottoman's... At the end of the day, we are all brothers and sisters. Some are worthless (like my real one's!) and some are not. I believe we must do our best to support as well and as many people as we can to guide ourselves toward utopia.

I couldn't imagine being born into Ethiopia with a mother and father with HIV/AIDS and going through a drought and drug wars.

Everyone is related, whether we like it or not. It is very easy to turn our emotions off and separate ourselves from that pain or challenge. It is really easy to just turn it off. Much like bombing and shooting and hunting for pleasure.

In my view we are all just vibrations of energy that have taken a certain form. Like if your LIVER went to WAR with KIDNEYS, we would probably think that is odd. (changed, better example)

Boy, I know I sure have changed my views on organic objects since I was a kid.

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  #223 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Investopedia explains Zero-Sum Game
Options and future contracts are examples of zero-sum games (excluding costs). For every person who gains on a contract, there is a counter-party who loses. Gambling is also an example of a zero-sum game.

A stock market, however, is not a zero-sum game because wealth can be created in a stock market.


Read more: Zero-Sum Game Definition

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 Silver Dragon 
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drago1 View Post
I never said the objective or purpose of society is take money from each other. I said very clearly that is that is the objective of a futures trader. We go into the trading pit or electronic pit and we go to war. This is not a tennis match. That is my point .When Tarkus was waxing sentimental about entrepreneurial spirit of being a trader I am trying to shout get a grip. Your job is take money from other traders. For every winner there is an equal loser . Hence the term zero sum game.

As far as OWS I never made a single mention of that group. I really don't care about that group. There are many of them. They all have their own issues.

I know that means I am techically off topic but I was only talking about trading. Trading is not a noble calling it is a gladiators arena. Either you come to kill or you are killed. I don't enjoy it but I don't particularly like people so perhaps I am so inclined.

Please simply read the text. As far as the lofty quote about trading being about the trade or whatever and the money will come. Good luck to you with that. I am here to take your money - that is the only reason.

Trading is a microcosm of life and society. Your logic fits like it or not. Even in the real world just like trading, you either kill or be killed.... Life just like trading, using your words, is not a tennis match.

WOW.. I didnt think my quote was that lofty.. lol I have done quite well with my lofty logic, but you just keep on believing you can take my money.

SD

nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.
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  #225 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Silver Dragon congratulations on your success. I said my objective is to take your money and I hope your objective is just as clear. I apologize for my cynical remark. My objective to take your money is a mission statement - nothing personal. PLUS I REALLY DESPISE THOMAS HOBBES.

In my first boxing match many years ago I had a clear opening to land a straight right hand. My opponent was completely exposed. I pulled my punch because of all my stupid years of point karate and pulling punches. lots of talk of flow and process in karate class but it did not help me in boxing. I had no killer instinct

My opponent came over to me after the fight and told me I should have knocked him out. Don't worry about me he said I understand the risk. I would have done it to you.

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 bluemele 
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drago1 View Post

Investopedia explains Zero-Sum Game
Options and future contracts are examples of zero-sum games (excluding costs). For every person who gains on a contract, there is a counter-party who loses. Gambling is also an example of a zero-sum game.

A stock market, however, is not a zero-sum game because wealth can be created in a stock market.


Read more: Zero-Sum Game Definition

Of course, from a general sense than everything is zero sum. I don't really want to debate this as it doesn't do any of us any good. In my opinion it really isn't, so you can accept that, or you can not. I don't care.

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 Tarkus11 
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drago1 View Post
Tarkus I don't think that anytrader with a brain - backed or not backed by the government financially- could give a rat's ass about the glory of entrepreneurial spirit. Trader/lawyer/ accountant/politician/ - all pretty repulsive and I am in the group. At one time we served a function but not really anymore - eat or be eaten. We are predators or we are prey - and unless you keep that in mind you will quickly be the latter. There is nothing noble about this business. Recall the language - on the floor of the exchange it is the trading pit.
Our whole existence as traders is finding ways to take money from each other. Zero sum game. No glory - no real function - create nothing. Take a look in the mirror - if you are trader - this is your life. I need a valium now.

When I mentioned "entrepreneurial spirit" I was alluding to the facet of taking responsibility for outcomes based on one's own decisions. An entrepreneur rises or falls on his/her decisions.

Zero-sum game may be in the short-term economically, but as Silver Dragon said - you need to expand your thinking.

When you started trading did you use a charting package? If so, did you investigate the programming language it uses to design things to help you see what you wanted to see more clearly? Did learning the coding process enhance your logic ability to think concretely about your ideas? Does that logic process carry over into how you view the arguments of others, looking for logic flaws in their position? Do you expand that thinking process out to other areas of your life?

There can be a host of personal and positive ancillary effects. If you think only in terms of economics, perhaps it is limited, but there is always someone on the opposite side of your trade, so it is a mutual contract. It is only when one side can cheat (like with insider info) that the contract is not legitimate.

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  #228 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. When I started trading there were no charts. You calculated everything by hand and knew important levels because you were so close to the numbers.

Trading was over the phone to a broker at $60 a round turn. Stops were a mile away. Weekends were psychological torture ( especially coffee trades )

I thought at that time that as a small speculator I performed some function in the market. Taking the other side of risk for hedging commercial traders. I knew the information flow was asymetrical and not in my favour but I still did allright.

Now I see the market as a meaningless casino. Disconnected from people and fundamerntals Without a relationship to value or function. hence my cynical view of this business.

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  #229 (permalink)
 Tarkus11 
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drago1 View Post
Thank you for your thoughtful response. When I started trading there were no charts. You calculated everything by hand and knew important levels because you were so close to the numbers.

Trading was over the phone to a broker at $60 a round turn. Stops were a mile away. Weekends were psychological torture ( especially coffee trades )

I thought at that time that as a small speculator I performed some function in the market. Taking the other side of risk for hedging commercial traders. I knew the information flow was asymetrical and not in my favour but I still did allright.

Now I see the market as a meaningless casino. Disconnected from people and fundamerntals Without a relationship to value or function. hence my cynical view of this business.

Since the market is different things to different people, it can be all those at the same time. Unfortunately it has been forced to take on an additional characteristic in the last several years.

1 - a hedging process
2 - a casino
3 - a casino where the biggest players can make everyone else pay for their bad choices.

1 & 2 are ok. 3 is not.

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  #230 (permalink)
 josh 
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drago1 View Post
[I]And as and aside. Josh if you are out there still reading these posts. Pot is good for you - . The science is there to prove it and when you thought you were insulting me I could only laugh. If you only knew the half of it.

Have you ever met a truly ambitious, eager, productive pot smoker? Perhaps they exist, but by and large smoking pot causes the smoker to feel as if he's brilliant and creative, but in reality he's just another lazy pothead. I don't think marijuana should be illegal by the way; I'm pretty close to libertarian, and if people want to kill their own brain cells, far be it from me to stand in their way.

You think smoking pot helps your ability to concentrate, to focus, or that the smoke helps your lungs? Please, show me some reputable "science" that proves that marijuana is good for you. I don't doubt that it has some medical benefits, for sure. But how do these benefits compare with the drawbacks?


drago1 View Post
Now I see the market as a meaningless casino. Disconnected from people and fundamerntals Without a relationship to value or function. hence my cynical view of this business.

Ironic how you laugh at me for my view on smoking pot, yet what you wrote here only validates what I said. Smoking pot will lead to this type of attitude I'm sure. You just don't care do you drago? You can't make money and so screw the system, right? You should lay off smoking for a few weeks and see if your view towards this business changes to something which will actually help you. I'm just trying to put it in a straightforward way so that it's blatantly clear to your drug-abused mind--read what you wrote above, and ask if this is how we all should think, and if it's helpful to your life, and if you would recommend this viewpoint to others? Is this what smoking pot has done for you?

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 Lornz 
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Tarkus11 View Post
Unfortunately it has been forced to take on an additional characteristic in the last several years.

1 - a hedging process

The futures markets were created to allow producers to transfer risk (hedge).

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  #232 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Honest to God Josh you are absolutely hilarious. You know nothing about me. You know even less about cannibus - let us first lose the pejoratives. I don't know how old you are but your comments are rude and infantile. You embarass yourself - . I know cannibus smokers who are hugely successful - you do not - is that really such a surprise. Certainly most of great music that came out of the 60s and 70s was so inspired. maybe you don;t like music or art. How about physics? Do you imagine the architects of the internet and microchips were tea toddlers? Consider the generation from which all this creativity emerged from? Steven Jobs - admitted LSD helped him creatively.

Francis Crick who discovered the DNA helix admitted his insight came from an LSD trip. Cary Mullis who won the nobel prize for DNA sequence analysis also was very resolute that LSD was the doorway to his insight. There are countless others. Rene Descartes the founder of reductionism which is clearly your paradigm had his mathematical insight in a dream. The dream experience is facilitated by DMT in the brain, a schedule 1 drug. In fact your brain manufactures the most powerful and illegal hallucinogen on the planet DMT every night. So go arrest yourself because you are drug manufacturer. Google DMT if you doubt any of this. Booze dulls the mind - plant entheogens open the doors of perception. Why are you so hostile?

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein. . Reality is your imagination Josh. You are just dreaming yourself. This might sound like druggy talk but go read something on quantam physics. Try physicist David Bohms Wholeness and Implicate -Explicate Order. . Read the work of Richard Feyenman, another physicist nobel winner and lsd enthusiast. Now this has probably got you spinning in your chair but before your fire off another vitriolic laced missive read a book or two or ten. Your view of the world is yours and that is fine. But you know nothing about me . Be polite. I do not take cannibus smoking lightly it is serious medicine and the experience is often very frightening. I do not encourage others.
https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/07/02/psychedelic-mushrooms-can-boost-mental-health-researchers-say/

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  #233 (permalink)
 Tarkus11 
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Lornz View Post
The futures markets were created to allow producers to transfer risk (hedge).

Exactly. As I said, #1 and #2 are ok. It is #3 (the most recent addition) that is not.

For the government back-stopped players, it is not transfer of risk. It is transfer of loss.

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 Lornz 
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Tarkus11 View Post
Exactly. As I said, #1 and #2 are ok. It is #3 (the most recent addition) that is not.

For the government back-stopped players, it is not transfer of risk. It is transfer of loss.

Indeed!

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  #235 (permalink)
 drago1 
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Agreed Tarkus. But the public is drunk with Dancing with the Stars and American Idol thru which they can celebrate their 2 minutes of hate or love. ( with all credit to Mr. Orwell )


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 kbit 
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drago1 View Post
Honest to God Josh you are absolutely hilarious. You know nothing about me. You know even less about cannibus - let us first lose the pejoratives. I don't know how old you are but your comments are rude and infantile. You embarass yourself - . I know cannibus smokers who are hugely successful - you do not - is that really such a surprise. Certainly most of great music that came out of the 60s and 70s was so inspired. maybe you don;t like music or art. How about physics? Do you imagine the architects of the internet and microchips were tea toddlers? Consider the generation from which all this creativity emerged from? Steven Jobs - admitted LSD helped him creatively.

Francis Crick who discovered the DNA helix admitted his insight came from an LSD trip. Cary Mullis who won the nobel prize for DNA sequence analysis also was very resolute that LSD was the doorway to his insight. There are countless others. Rene Descartes the founder of reductionism which is clearly your paradigm had his mathematical insight in a dream. The dream experience is facilitated by DMT in the brain, a schedule 1 drug. In fact your brain manufactures the most powerful and illegal hallucinogen on the planet DMT every night. So go arrest yourself because you are drug manufacturer. Google DMT if you doubt any of this. Booze dulls the mind - plant entheogens open the doors of perception. Why are you so hostile?

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein. . Reality is your imagination Josh. You are just dreaming yourself. This might sound like druggy talk but go read something on quantam physics. Try physicist David Bohms Wholeness and Implicate -Explicate Order. . Read the work of Richard Feyenman, another physicist nobel winner and lsd enthusiast. Now this has probably got you spinning in your chair but before your fire off another vitriolic laced missive read a book or two or ten. Your view of the world is yours and that is fine. But you know nothing about me . Be polite.

Psychedelic Mushrooms Can Boost Mental Health, Researchers Say | 80beats | Discover Magazine


I have no desire to get in the middle of this really but, just wanted to mention that I know a number of VERY sucessful people that are regular pot smokers as well. I don't know any that go beyond pot so I can't comment on the rest of it.

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  #237 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Not sure how true this is, but THIS is how one effects change.


Quoting 
........on a national basis credit unions gained an astonishing 650,000 new members in October, 50,000 higher than the number of new members who joined in all of 2010, according to the Credit Union National Association.

This type of movement would be 1000 times more powerful than people standing in front of banks on Wall Street. This is actually using the power of consumerism, which is actually effective and will influence a banks decision.

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 zt379 
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forrestang View Post
Not sure how true this is, but THIS is how one effects change.

"........on a national basis credit unions gained an astonishing 650,000 new members in October, 50,000 higher than the number of new members who joined in all of 2010, according to the Credit Union National Association."

This type of movement would be 1000 times more powerful than people standing in front of banks on Wall Street. This is actually using the power of consumerism, which is actually effective and will influence a banks decision.

https://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/28/credit-union-flap-may-reveal-goldman-sachs-bullying-community-banks/

"
When it was announced recently that Goldman Sachs had withdrawn its sponsorship of the small community bank at which Occupy Wall Street had set up an account for its donations, it appeared to be merely a petty act of vindictiveness.
According to investigative reporter Greg Palast, however, the motivations go much deeper and may involve that Goldman Sachs is misusing TARP bailout funds as a “political weapon” to bully smaller banks.
Back in 2008, Goldman Sachs received $10 billion from the US Treasury under the TARP program that had been established to bail out failing commercial banks. The firm was neither failing nor a commercial bank, but the Secretary of the Treasury at that time, Henry Paulson, was a former Goldman Sachs chairman, and that was sufficient.........
There was one catch, however, which was that “Goldman would have to return a chunk of the public’s billions in the form of loans for low-income customers and members of its ‘community’, as required by the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) of 1977."


Same clip as in above article from Democracy Now interview with Palast.

"Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile..." zt379
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  #239 (permalink)
 drago1 
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According to expert Robert Hare on Psychopaths, and the creator of the PCR scale which is used by courts all over the world- 1% of the population are subclinical psychopaths. In Canada that makes for 300,000 and in the USA 3,000,000. This is no joke.

Psychopaths are not all Ted Bundy or John wayne Gaceys. They are everywhere. They have no conscience, no empathy, do not understand feelings yet they can be charming, manipulative and thrill seeking. This personality type flourishes in corporate and political environments as these behaviours/skills are recognized as valuable. So the cream does not rise to the top, it only looks like cream but in fact is toxic sludge. Excellent article link below and almost certainly it will bring someone you know to mind.

Psychopaths are hardwired and just do not get feelings as normal people do, as such they have no remorse for their actions. ( bernie madoff, jeff skilling, bernie ebbers, etc, etc all come to mind for starters). So if stupidity and hubris were not enough of an obstacle to responsible leadership we sprinkle in a healthy dose of psychopathy and la voila - recursive loop of corruption. We might all be one on some spiritual level - be we are all not nice and that is for certain. Is it any surprise that history repeats itself?

Psychopaths Among Us, by Robert Hercz

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 Peter2150 
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forrestang View Post
Not sure how true this is, but THIS is how one effects change.



This type of movement would be 1000 times more powerful than people standing in front of banks on Wall Street. This is actually using the power of consumerism, which is actually effective and will influence a banks decision.

Maybe not. I just saw an article that made the point that a lot of big bucks are fleeing the Euro and coming into US banks. In fact so much so they can't get it all loaned out.

By losing the small accounts of people leaving it actually saves them money on fee's they have to pay.

As with the market, the unknowledge buy at the top and sell at the bottom. I suspect this bank think is more of the same.

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 Peter2150 
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As to my view on these protests.

What is happening now says it all.

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After ‘Occupy’ Group Splatters Blood, Urine CBS Los Angeles

Lazy people, thugs etc, when they aren't handed what they want....

This thing may have started with a good motive, but it has been taken over by bad elements.

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 drago1 
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Peter2150 View Post
As to my view on these protests.

What is happening now says it all.

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After ‘Occupy’ Group Splatters Blood, Urine CBS Los Angeles

Lazy people, thugs etc, when they aren't handed what they want....

This thing may have started with a good motive, but it has been taken over by bad elements.


Could you please explain how you extropolate from this video that lazy people and thugs not handed what they want have now taken over ( paraphrasing of course). Seriously and repectfully, I am not being argumentative - but that is a pretty sweeping condemnation . I am trying to understand the basis and data supporting your commentary.

Is it possible that thugs are just opportunist using the cover of protests?

Is it possible that thugs are "import upstarts" so to speak to discredit the protest? similar to G20 in Toronto and this is a common tactic to discredit groups.

Are lazy people likely to stand outside with signs for months - wouldn't they just go home if they were really lazy?

Didn't the tea party also face the same time of sweeping condemenation although from a different perspective?

I am neither defending or attacking - just asking. I am highly sceptical of the media regardless of the issue. Sound bite journalism can tell any story it chooses.

Believe Nothing that you hear and only half of what you see.

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oscarblank
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forrestang View Post
Not sure how true this is, but THIS is how one effects change.



This type of movement would be 1000 times more powerful than people standing in front of banks on Wall Street. This is actually using the power of consumerism, which is actually effective and will influence a banks decision.

Completely agree. Voting with one's wallet is just as (if not more so) powerful as voting at the ballot box. Now, having said that, moving to a local credit union from a fee-gouging big bank is a relatively easy move for the average Joe to understand and actually do given a good number of credit union options. However, not so easy a move for those that extrapolate this argument to big businesses like Walmart. Since there are generally not really any cheaper alternatives locally (seeing as to how Walmart effectively ran most local competitors out of business), it's not quite so easy a move for that same average Joe (on a tight budget) to stop shopping at Walmart given he'd likely be spending more elsewhere. Anybody got any bright ideas for that scenario?

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 drago1 
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I almost never have bright ideas but I am a shit disturber so let me give it a go.

In my opinion we have become too comfortable letting others do the sacrificing - volunteer military- a miniscule segment of the population doing the heavy lifting for years. I am old so I cannot participate at that level nor do I have the courage to. Below are not sacrifices but compromises that I think can affect change.

If you have to pay a little extra or buy a little less and support local vendors that makes a statement.
At one time 30% of Americans grew their own food. Now we cover good soil with fertilizer and lawn seed and compulsively give military hair cuts to our lawns. Until recently90% of the produce in the USSR was grown on small crappy plots of land and that fed everybody. We buy food from stores and have no idea or connection to what is in it. We sacrifice time from our families in order to work to buy stuff previous generations did naturally. Eating locally grown and cooking healthy food is the best health care expense you can make for your family

For entertainment , you can go to Walmart or Home Depot and play - try and find something that is made in America. This is no easy task and you only need to play once to realize we no longer manufacture much of anything. People used to sew their own clothes, very common not too long ago, and good quality clothes that survives more than one trip thru the dryer. Those fabric stores have all but vanished.

Read a book to your kids instead of renting a movie. Just some simple ideas. The book attached DO NOT read to your kids is about the meat industry and factory farming. Very disturbing health implications for all. Stay healthy and stay away from the sick care system - it cost me years of my life.

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 Big Mike 
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  #246 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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IS THERE NO SHAME? The Burning Platform

Answer: The psychopaths are in charge of the asylum.

Here is a nice little quote about "American Exceptionalism"!


Quoting 
“By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.” ― Adolf Hitler

Bear in mind that the causes of the financial crisis are rooted in CRIMINAL FRAUD. Why are so many of you intent on not only protecting, but venerating, these CRIMINALS?

https://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/11/bill-blacks-address-to-occupyla.html

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  #247 (permalink)
 drago1 
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From the Madman
"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
—Nietzsche

from wikipedia:

The death of God is a way of saying that humans are no longer able to believe in any such cosmic order since they themselves no longer recognize it. The death of God will lead, Nietzsche says, not only to the rejection of a belief of cosmic or physical order but also to a rejection of absolute values themselves — to the rejection of belief in an objective and universal moral law, binding upon all individuals. In this manner, the loss of an absolute basis for morality leads to nihilism. This nihilism is that for which Nietzsche worked to find a solution by re-evaluating the foundations of human values. This meant, to Nietzsche, looking for foundations that went deeper than Christian values. He would find a basis in the " will to power" that he described as "the essence of reality."
Nietzsche believed that the majority of people did not recognize this death out of the deepest-seated fear or angst. Therefore, when the death did begin to become widely acknowledged, people would despair and nihilism would become rampant. This is partly why Nietzsche saw Christianity as nihilistic. He may have seen himself as a historical figure like Zarathustra, Socrates or Jesus, giving a new philosophical orientation to future generations to overcome the impending nihilism.

Unaware, we create new deities - or they are created for us - and this type of idolatry is void of any morality.

Penn State zombies screaming" we love you coach Joe" immediately comes to mind. Disgusting. But what a revolting coward who witnessed the rape of the little boy by the football coach and did nothing to stop it. This was a football player and he had no courage to protect a child. Improvise a weapon. Grab a football helmet from the locker room and crack the raping bastard across the head - a half dozen times. Then call the police. Sometimes pragmatism has to trump philosophy.

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  #248 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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@drago1

Thank you for your post. I first started reading Nietzsche in high school and his work has had a profound impact on my life. Alas, he is probably the most misunderstood thinker. Ayn Rand did her part by bastardizing his ideas, but most simply seem to lack the mental flexibility to appreciate his writings.

Contrary to popular belief, his work is full of humor and warmth, but on a deeper level than most are willing to go.

It is challenging reading, but it is well worth it.

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  #249 (permalink)
Savage
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The fact of the matter is the ratio, ie. 99 : 1., and who rules who?
Then the burning question is, which side do you think you are on?

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 kbit 
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Did you guys see this OWS guy picture around...he makes me think of the "Don't tase me bro" guy.
The first time I saw it the first thing in my mind was "what a Moron".

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 Zondor 
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Occupy Systemic Change | Michael Hudson


Quoting 
What’s basically wrong is that the financial system is running the government. For years, Republicans and Democrats have both said that a strong government, careful regulation and progressive taxation are markers on the road to serfdom. The politicians and neoliberal economists who write their patter say, “Let’s take planning out of the hands of government and put it in the ‘free market.’” But every market is planned by someone or other. If governments step aside, then planning passes into the hands of the bankers, because of their key role in allocating credit.

The problem is that they have not created credit to finance industrial investment and employment. They have lent for speculation on asset price inflation, using debt leveraging to bid up housing prices, stock and bond prices, and foreign exchange rates. They have convinced borrowers that they can get rich on rising housing prices. But this merely makes new homebuyers go deeper into debt to buy a home. And when banks say that rising stock and bond prices are good for the economy, this price rise lowers the dividend or interest yield. This means that pension funds and individuals have to save much more for retirement. Instead of improving their life, it makes them work harder and borrow more just to stay in place.

The banking system’s alternative to “the road to serfdom” thus turns out to be a road to debt peonage. This financial engineering turns out to be worse than government planning. The banks have taken over the Federal Reserve and Treasury and put their lobbyists in charge – men such as Tim Geithner and the others with ties to Rubinomics dating from the Clinton administration, and especially to Goldman Sachs and other giant Wall Street firms.

- Prof. Michael Hudson

https://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/11/some-modest-proposals-for-reforming-us.html

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 Zondor 
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Occupy Wall Street: Michael Kink inside the New York Stock Exchange, next steps for movement - Countdown with Keith Olbermann // Current TV


"Those who do not move do not notice their chains"

https://www.salon.com/2011/11/20/the_roots_of_the_uc_davis_pepper_spraying/

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 PositiveDeviant 
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Zondor View Post
In this country, the bottom 80% had 7% of the financial wealth, in 2007. The top 1% had 43%. So why SHOULDN'T they pay 40% of the taxes? So they can create more jobs, like they have since then?

Now there's an idea, how about the percentage share of financial wealth the top 1% own becomes their tax rate. The bigger share they take, the bigger share they pay.

"The primary thing required to obtain what you want from life, is simply the will to pursue it, and the faith to believe it is possible." - Author Unknown

"The ability to maintain discipline and stick to the rules is the hallmark of the experienced successful trader" - Curtis Faith
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  #254 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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It's becoming like Mexico where the top 1% has close to 95% of the wealth. I recall back in 1999 , that idea was laughable. Now two taxing ongoing wars later and all the Fed intervention and the housing hustle and banksters bailout, multinationals having shipped 30 million jobs to China within the past 10 years under the media radar, with 2 trillion in corporate global profits not re-invested back into the U.S., whole small towns resorting to growing pot farms to make money, it's getting closer to the situation in Mexico, especially in California. You go to rundown sections of LA it already looks like Mexico and poor areas in central California -> in "middle-class" neighborhoods , every other neighbor works for the state usually in education or corrections.

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cedar
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good posts guys.

sadly the economic trends don't look good for those of us in the US. despite the deep recession and unemployment, we are more productive! Thanks to automation and computers many jobs have been wiped out, never to return. I dread the day the rest of the US will be like California...

I don't know if you saw this, interesting talk at TED. How economic inequality harms societies.

The message, if you want to live the American dream, move to denmak! you won't find it in the US unless you are the 1%.

Richard Wilkinson: How economic inequality harms societies | Video on TED.com

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 jta3 
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2012 would be the worst year ever with event there wil be difficult to undestand.
Food prizes will go up to start new riots and US will default the dollar with 40% and make China looking red.
A war with Iran will be pushed forward faster and faster. I think May month will be the times running out, but it can go faster.

This world is going total insane.!

Hope i am total wrong

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 Zondor 
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NYPD 'consistently violated basic rights' during Occupy protests ? study | World news | guardian.co.uk



Quoting 
The NYPD appears to be the worst offender, in large part because it has made little attempt – unlike Oakland, for example – to reassess its practices or open itself up to dialogue or review. The NYPD practices documented in the report include:

• Aggressive, unnecessary and excessive police force against peaceful protesters, bystanders, legal observers, and journalists. This included the use of batons, pepper spray, metal barricades, scooters, and horses.

• Obstruction of press freedoms and independent legal monitoring, including arrests of at least 10 journalists, and multiple cases of preventing journalists from reporting on protests or barring and evicting them from specific sites.

• Pervasive surveillance of peaceful political activity.

• Violent late-night raids on peaceful encampments.

• Unjustified closure of public spaces, dispersal of peaceful assemblies, and trapping of protesters.

• Arbitrary and selective rule enforcement and baseless arrests.

• Failures to ensure transparency about government policies.

• Failures to ensure accountability for those allegedly responsible for abuses.

The report argues that the lack of transparency and accountability is especially troubling because the public does not know whether police actions are guided by specific written policies, or whether they are random or ad hoc.


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 syxforex 
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They're Ba'ack...

Mass arrests in NYC as OWS movement marks one year (PHOTOS, VIDEO) — RT

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 syxforex 
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Here's What We Learned Today About Occupy Wall Street — It's Not Coming Back

Read more: Occupy Wall Street Anniversary - Business Insider

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 Cloudy 
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"wealthy" stats by CNBC the other day.

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  #261 (permalink)
 kronie 
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OWS was a natural outcome to the evident inequalities and rigged financial status we find ourselves in.

consumer based economies choose their place on the scale and are at the butt end economically
producer based economies choose whom share in the benefits, such as creating a middle class

Hoover-villes can about (predecessors to OWS) as a direct result of no protections (for the masses or common citizens)

When corporate governance chanted the mantra of profits only and stop being concerned about the host country's welfare, both
in terms of internal managerial treatment of their staffs and their families, as well as their customer base, this self interest attitude became
so much more pervasive as to be poisonous, especially to the host country.

So where does the common man go?, what do they do?

OWS!

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 Zondor 
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Now the truth emerges:


Government and Big Banks Joined Forces to Violently Crush Peaceful Protests | ZeroHedge




Quoting 
The FBI was organizing against the OWS movement even before it was known to the general public, and they kept on their campaign against it, until it was dead.

***

The FBI’s police-state snooping and tracking of Occupy Wall Street … had begun even before most Americans knew that there was any such movement for the FBI to snoop against.

In other words, the reason why Barack Obama’s “Justice” Department refuses to prosecute even a single one of the mega-bank executives who profited so enormously from having defrauded both mortgagees and the investors in mortgage-backed securities, and who were bailed out by future U.S. taxpayers whose government purchased those remaining “toxic assets” at 100 cents on the dollar, is clear: we live in a police state, and these elite crooks control it. This is not real democracy.

Voters were given a choice in November between a President like that but whose liberal rhetoric is condemnatory of “Wall Street,” versus a professional stripper of corporations, whose rhetoric was overtly supportive of Wall Street. And voters chose the former. But this nonetheless is a police state, not an authentic democracy.


"If we don't loosen up some money, this sucker is going down." -GW Bush, 2008
“Lack of proof that something is true does not prove that it is not true - when you want to believe.” -Humpty Dumpty, 2014
“The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.”
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