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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests


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What is your view on the Occupy Wall Street Protests

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  #101 (permalink)
 madLyfe 
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OCCUPY PORTLAND PROTESTERS SING ‘F*** THE USA’


dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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  #102 (permalink)
 bnichols 
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Since the "Occupy [fill in the blank] Movement" has "moved" into Ottawa and Montreal apparently, as a Canadian I feel obligated to have an opinion but by the same token it's hard to form one, mired as we are in politeness and apathy.

By the way, I tend to accept the adage that if we're not left-leaning in our youth we have no heart, not right-leaning when we're older we have no head. Since most people have both hearts & heads & become older, whatever the facts may be therefore demographics alone are going to polarize opinion, and given my age my perspective might be described as stereotypically right wing.

That said, I have no idea how much of the global economic downturn is due to crooks, how much to lawful but what some call unethical behaviour by capitalists, workers and their collectives and by politicians and how much is due to boom & bust cycles associated with execution of the particular economic model adopted by various countries and the (fiat) monetary system. Ignorance has never excused anyone from a battle of opinion, however.

Also confusing me are news reports, from which it appears anyone with an agenda and no pressing need to be elsewhere creating wealth (paid rabble rousers by that definition no exception) is marching in the streets, and it's hard to distinguish the professional activists and anarchists, college students following their hearts (or chasing skirts) and the unemployable from those with a legitimate gripe. Those with a legitimate gripe may include the unemployed although unfortunately I never understood the mindset. When there were no jobs that I was prepared to do (and I washed dishes a lot of dishes and cut a lot of grass in my time) I would start a company that employed----sorry! exploited---a respectable number of workers itself. 2 or 3 companies so far, although I now employ no one but myself and am hence ineligible for handouts even if I vowed a long time ago never to accept charity from other taxpayers, IMO doing business with government an especially insidious form of abusing other taxpayers.

In my opinion if government wants central planning, goes out of its way to achieve central planning and takes credit when the economy coincidentally prospers, then it had better be prepared to take the blame when things go south. If it has not already done so job 1 for government is therefore to prosecute the crooks and criminalize what might be generally perceived as counterproductive activities, including its own, and then take a long hard look at its economic model. It perplexes me therefore why the White House is not also being mobbed, although I hear the US President was shrewd enough to suggest he's sympathetic to The Cause and thereby channel any incipient political unrest into more fuel for class warfare, which in N. America at least is apparently the lesser evil as far as politicians are concerned, in any case easily dissipated by increasing the dole.

If government weren't necessary for the existence of university political science departments it would serve little purpose, and therefore welcomes crises to further its political goals, which for both sides of a broadly 2-party system may be intertwined with the economy each according to a particular dogma but are first and foremost associated with staying in power. The latest economic crisis is no exception, if a little embarrassing because it illuminates its impotence--forced to maintain a political stalemate until capitalism, despite the death grip of government policy, can create the jobs government desperately needs to attribute to policy--hence the posturing ahead of the next election in the meantime.

In Canada such events simply incite kids to play hooky and cause the left to become somewhat more indignant than usual, to the extent we can get worked up about anything. As far as I know the most vocal protester has been one of the union leaders representing Federal government workers, claiming the Conservative government doesn't care about workers. It seems to me if the government union spokesman wanted to opine on behalf of workers he might get a real job first, but in any event markets are open and its time to get back to wealth generation. Somebody's got to pay taxes, which include his salary.

Finally on a lighter note, had to smile at the news a group of activists, students and income-deprived either staged or threatened a run on a Wall Street bank. Guessing it would have seriously depleted the banks' reserves of pennies and nickels.

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  #103 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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The Occupiers' dream: an easy revolution?



Quoting 
For now, one could characterize the Occupy movement as "Pre-food-riot have-nots asking for wealth redistribution." This description is unwieldy, but it says a bit more than "the protesters feel they are the 99%" who demand, "Make Banksters Accountable!"

To keep together all under one tent, as it were, the protesters are in danger of standing still. So where will they go next? There will sooner or later be another step to take that's not so easy. Will corporate news media offices and government buildings be forcibly Occupied, using nonviolent civil disobedience? Great numbers would be required. The scene could turn ugly and violent instantly, most likely because of police or agents de provocateur tactics.


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  #104 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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I find it ironic the people who support the wall street movement are even here in this forum. if they really believed in what you are saying shouldn’t you be closing down your trading account and disperse the money to the protestors who have no jobs or money? After all, I do believe this forum supports Wall Street. Am I wrong? By trading and posting you are supporting the banks, brokers and wall street as a whole. <--- Are these not the businesses you are protesting? Help understand how you can support and protest them at the same time... My guess is you have a bank account too… lol again, the irony…

I find even more ironic you are using computers / phones / tablets from fortune 500 companies to post on this forum and to trade the markets. Why do you even own these? As Zondor pointed out in a previous post “fortune 500 companies are job killers!” If true, why are you supporting the very people you are condemning by owning and buying these items? I wonder if you even have any guilt or compassion for the lives you have destroyed…

Why are you trading? Perhaps you are just as greedy as the people you are protesting. Or is it because you have to follow the mantra: “Do as I say not as I do” . Or is it because you believe in capitalism and want to be make a living by doing what you are good at. Whatever the reason, simply by trading invalidates the arguments against capitalism and the rich because you are supporting them just by being here.

It is time to Get Real Wall Street protestors by backing up what you are saying with actions which support your point of view. If you don’t then you are just a Hypocrite who is Occupying futures.io (formerly BMT).

SD

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  #105 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Silver Dragon View Post
I find it ironic the people who support the wall street movement are even here in this forum.

I disagree.

I don't watch any kind of news, so I don't know much about the details of the movement. What I do know is they've said some stupid things and are poorly organized.

But like I said before, what it means to me is simple --- corporate greed (aka "wall street") is at its highest levels, record profits... while unemployment and foreclosure are also at record levels (aka "main street"). The corporations have made conscious decisions to not support Americans, but to send jobs overseas. They've made conscious decisions to to not hire Americans. They've made conscious decisions to not help people in foreclosure.

Now, this is America - we are all in this together, right? No, apparently not. The American people bailed out the banks when they FUBAR'd the entire system. But the banks won't modify a home loan unless they can profit from it. They won't hire an American when someone overseas costs them less.

Like I've said, this is not all the banks fault. Americans are equally (more really) to blame for allowing the current system to even exist. Americans love credit. They all live beyond their means. They are all more interested in watching some reality TV show than tuning in to the real world of what is happening before their eyes, and then voting to make real change.

Like I've said earlier, until Americans are willing to pay more money to Buy American, then the "Made in the USA" movement will never come back.

I really don't at all understand your relation between protesting corporate greed and someone having a trading account or being a member of this forum.

Mike

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  #106 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Big Mike View Post

I really don't at all understand your relation between protesting corporate greed and someone having a trading account or being a member of this forum.

Just my guess......

But every time you place a trade through your broker, aren't you paying a financial institution a fee for finding someone to trade that derivative with?

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  #107 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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forrestang View Post
Just my guess......

But every time you place a trade through your broker, aren't you paying a financial institution a fee for finding someone to trade that derivative with?

So?

I didn't say we need to get rid of the banks. Banks serve a useful purpose.

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  #108 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Big Mike View Post
So?

I didn't say we need to get rid of the banks. Banks serve a useful purpose.

Mike

I'm not saying you are BM. I'm making the point that SD made, that by trading you are in a way supporting some of the people that the protesters are against.

And then you said you didn't see a correlation there between corporate greed and trading. I'm simply making the point that by trading, we are ALL supporting financial institutions.

And SD's point seems to be that none of us really HAVE TO support any type of greed if we choose not to. But we all willingly seem to do so, while complaining about it at the same time.

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  #109 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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Big Mike View Post
Now, this is America - we are all in this together, right? No, apparently not. The American people bailed out the banks when they FUBAR'd the entire system. But the banks won't modify a home loan unless they can profit from it. They won't hire an American when someone overseas costs them less.

Lets say it correctly; the government bailed out the bank using Americans money based on the premise was they were too big to fail. Had the capitalist system been allowed to work as it should have the banks, which are now being protested, would have failed. New banks that could have built a better mousetrap, so to speak, would have replaced them. In which case there would have been no need for all the protesting because the bad banks would have been gone. All these protests were generated because the government intervention.


Big Mike View Post
I really don't at all understand your relation between protesting corporate greed and someone having a trading account or being a member of this forum.

See forrestang answer. He nailed it.

Question for you: How can you go against Corporate greed when you directly benefit from it? Most traders in this room are here for one reason: to make money and become rich, plain and simple. They use products or trade contracts controlled by the big corporations to make their money from which the corporations take their cut. By having this forum open you are enabling the corporate entities to become richer by sucking the money from traders in the form of commissions, fees, and products they sell, all of which is well advertised here. If your principle is not to support corporate greed then futures.io (formerly BMT) should be shut down on principle alone. At the very least the advertisements for software packages should be removed. My guess is you wont shut it down or remove anything, why? because of the need to make a living. Lets face it Mike, for you, these advertisements for software packages, brokerage firms and the greed of traders, just like the banks, serve their purpose.

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  #110 (permalink)
 madLyfe 
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Big Mike View Post
But like I said before, what it means to me is simple --- corporate greed (aka "wall street") is at its highest levels, record profits... while unemployment and foreclosure are also at record levels (aka "main street"). The corporations have made conscious decisions to not support Americans, but to send jobs overseas. They've made conscious decisions to to not hire Americans. They've made conscious decisions to not help people in foreclosure.

Now, this is America - we are all in this together, right? No, apparently not. The American people bailed out the banks when they FUBAR'd the entire system. But the banks won't modify a home loan unless they can profit from it. They won't hire an American when someone overseas costs them less.

personally i think you need to look directly at the politicians and big govt, and their relationship with large corporations.. all the banks did was exactly what they knew they wouldnt get in trouble for, criminally.. financially im sure they knew that it didnt matter if they failed for they had that nice little relationship in their back pocket...

i would have liked to seem them totally fail.. yes craziness for awhile, but from ashes comes green.. some private entity would have come along and bought up the banks to run them better.. all we have done by bailing them out is reinforced bad behavior and now they are even 'to bigger' to fail.. really, really stupid...

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  #111 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
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Big Mike View Post
Well not to over simplify, but for me protesting corporate greed is simply that corporate profits are at all time highs, while foreclosures and unemployment are also at record levels.

This means corporations are not supporting Americans, when they choose to send jobs overseas in order to make more profit.

In this country, it used to mean something to "Buy American" or "Made in the USA". These days it is next to impossible to buy anything "Made in the USA".

I don't think that it matters whether the jobs are overseas or here in America or whether products are made here or in America. The situation doesn't change in the slightest because the wealth will still be disproportionately spread. There are many protesters who have jobs but want more money. Bringing remedial jobs back into this country means more people will make minimum wage but the rich will still be rich and the poor will still be poor.


Quoting 
If these protesters showed up naked with sandwiches they made at home, aren't they still supporting Kraft? Unless they have their own farm, and then they are supporting the corporations who buy the crops. So its hard to really understand the usefulness of your image imo.

To me the protests are simply a way of saying "enough is enough", "start supporting Americans again and don't be so greedy". Sure there are tons of idiots protesting. There are tons of idiots, period. I wouldn't expect the ratio to dramatically shift. But the reason people are protesting in the first place is because they are unhappy with the way they are being treated.

I think this is another issue too. When people create corporations, they don't do it to support Americans or to create jobs... those are issues for the government. People create corporations primarily to make money. So when someone comes and says, "Hey this isn't right, you are making a lot of money" it seems pretty obvious that this was the whole point of the corporation from the onset. By asking a corporation to spread wealth or distribute money evenly, you are asking them to run inefficiently based on what they know they can make normally.


Quoting 
But naturally corporations are not entirely to blame. Only when Americans will purposely buy American, even at higher expense, will things change. Only when Americans care less about The Emmys and more about whether or not their retirement fund will exist, will things change.

I agree that the average American has an embarrassing amount of financial knowledge and have their priorities out of order, but again, this is asking the average consumer to spend more for the sake of the country. Either the products made will cost more because Corporations have to pay more money to workers than if they were outsourced, or the Government will have to put tariffs on competing goods so that everything is expensive or will have to pay the corporations with public money via a subsidy.

People make money to spend on their own individual wants and needs, not for the greater good of a country. *insert discussion about the Invisible hand of the economy here* That is why I think that the idea of paying more to buy America will fail whenever it is brought up.


Quoting 
Zondor said the approval rating for congress is 10%. Yet we continue to elect them. Why do you suppose that is?

Mike

To avoid anarchy lol. Seriously though, people are just as uneducated about politics as they are with finance. And when the general public gets caught in gossip, irrelevant tidbits and silly catch phrases instead of learning about the real issues, is there any wonder that we are in the situation that we are in?

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  #112 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
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madLyfe View Post
i would have liked to seem them totally fail.. yes craziness for awhile, but from ashes comes green.. some private entity would have come along and bought up the banks to run them better.. all we have done by bailing them out is reinforced bad behavior and now they are even 'to bigger' to fail.. really, really stupid...

Lol @ craziness for a while. That sounds like a bit of an understatement personally. Insolvent banks brings economies to an immediate halt and the Great Depression was not craziness 'for a while'. Do you think that it is fiscally irresponsible to let the world burn to prove a lesson to a few overzealous bankers?

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  #113 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
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Silver Dragon View Post
Lets say it correctly; the government bailed out the bank using Americans money based on the premise was they were too big to fail. Had the capitalist system been allowed to work as it should have the banks, which are now being protested, would have failed. New banks that could have built a better mousetrap, so to speak, would have replaced them. In which case there would have been no need for all the protesting because the bad banks would have been gone. All these protests were generated because the government intervention.

It is not as simple as 'bad banks gone, new banks take over'. It is bad banks gone -> everyone with money in those banks is now poor -> rush on remaining banks that were not involved -> mass chaos -> anarchy ->????



Quoting 
See forrestang answer. He nailed it.

Question for you: How can you go against Corporate greed when you directly benefit from it? Most traders in this room are here for one reason: to make money and become rich, plain and simple.

So is there something against wanting to make money? How about to become rich? Are you suggesting that everyone should earn the same amount of money? I am intrigued and would like to know how the capitalistic foundations that the country was built on is suddenly terrible.


Quoting 
They use products or trade contracts controlled by the big corporations to make their money from which the corporations take their cut. By having this forum open you are enabling the corporate entities to become richer by sucking the money from traders in the form of commissions, fees, and products they sell, all of which is well advertised here.

Corporations are not evil. They are the separation of legal responsibility from person and business. Corner shops can have corporate licenses. The pursuit of money to make a living is not a bad thing.


Quoting 
If your principle is not to support corporate greed then futures.io (formerly BMT) should be shut down on principle alone. At the very least the advertisements for software packages should be removed. My guess is you wont shut it down or remove anything, why? because of the need to make a living. Lets face it Mike, for you, these advertisements for software packages, brokerage firms and the greed of traders, just like the banks, serve their purpose.

SD

Lol. I pray to God you never become a regulator. You are basically saying that the American dream of working hard and becoming rich is just greedy. Being financially rewarded for providing a service is what Capitalism is all about.

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  #114 (permalink)
 madLyfe 
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Bermudan Option View Post
What about the great depression? Insolvent banks brings economies to an immediate halt. You don't think it is fiscally irresponsible to let the world burn to prove a lesson to a few overzealous bankers?

the great depression, or what i like to call the rubber band effect/market reset, led to arguably the biggest bull market ever? happened in the 80's aswell(where btw unemployment was higher).. no, i believe in the free market.. if you fail you fail... yuh, it could get really scary, but thats what risk is.. the govt shouldnt have their hand in on the free market.. to me the only thing the govt has ever done really well is our military, and lots of parts of that it is supported by the private sector.. (btw im not saying every decision we have made, war wise or intervention, but when the military does something wrong or right it generally gets the job done..)

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  #115 (permalink)
 Bermudan Option 
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madLyfe View Post
the great depression, or what i like to call the rubber band effect/market reset, led to arguably the biggest bull market ever? happened in the 80's aswell(where btw unemployment was higher).. no, i believe in the free market.. if you fail you fail... yuh, it could get really scary, but thats what risk is.. the govt shouldnt have their hand in on the free market.. to me the only thing the govt has ever done really well is our military, and lots of parts of that it is supported by the private sector.. (btw im not saying every decision we have made, war wise or intervention, but when the military does something wrong or right it generally gets the job done..)

So you wouldn't mind suffering for 10 years if we have a bull market that lasts 20. What if you are 58 and that means you can't retire when you want to? What if you just had a baby and now it is impossible to save up for a college education thanks to the return on bonds because there is no growth expected for the next ten years? What if you are thinking of opening a business but can't get a loan because banks know that the next 10 years will be shit? There is so much cause and effect that you don't seem to be factoring into your response. It is not as simple as "if you fail, you fail". These are banks if they fail they are taking a hell of a lot of innocent people with them.

Sure, one can argue that this happened with the housing crisis, but I am relatively sure that the issue would have been magnified 10 fold if people woke up in 2007 and realized that they were completely broke and that there saving accounts were reset to 0. With the housing crisis, people got burned but how many of them were overleveraged? How many where trying to flip houses like they saw on tv? How many had all of their money invested in the house? There was a lot of errors made and people are paying the price. If banks were allowed to fail, people that made no errors at all will be fucked. That will lead to chaos.

I'm all for delayed gratification but I am glad that the people in power did not make the decision to roll the dice and let things get really scary. The government protected the population from unnecessary risk and shouldered the risk themselves. Of course there will always be critics who disagree and would rather they played Russian Roulette with our future but c'est la vie.

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  #116 (permalink)
 madLyfe 
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Bermudan Option View Post
So you wouldn't mind suffering for 10 years if we have a bull market that lasts 20. What if you are 58 and that means you can't retire when you want to? What if you just had a baby and now it is impossible to save up for a college education thanks to the return on bonds because there is no growth expected for the next ten years? What if you are thinking of opening a business but can't get a loan because banks know that the next 10 years will be shit?

I'm all for delayed gratification but I am glad that the people in power did not make the decision to roll the dice and let things get really scary. The government protected the population from unnecessary risk and shouldered the risk themselves. Of course there will always be critics who disagree and would rather they played Russian Roulette with our future but c'est la vie.

well how has it gotten better by saving them? its actually gotten worse..

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  #117 (permalink)
cedar
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So I walked over to Zuccotti Park/Wall Street area this weekend. I went there on Saturday when almost everyone had marched to Times square. Even then Zuccotti park was overflowing with protesters.

Not quite the arab spring, but still the protesters have a lot of energy and frustrations. They are smart, well educated. getting well organised, there is a medical clinic, enough food to feed 2,000 people a day. donations are starting to flow in, I read today, NYC occupy wall street has over 300k in their bank account.

I hope the movement lasts and grows, the 99% of us need a voice!

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 cw30000 
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They just need to organize it a bit.

I only have one question for them: What is taking them so long?

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cedar
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They just need to organize it a bit.

I only have one question for them: What is taking them so long?

well, part of their mandate is a leaderless movement, this makes things a little hard.

walking around zacotti park, I did see many small breakout sessions. people educating and strategizing with others. I believe raising 300k says a lot.

however they do need to stay on message, stay focus. I saw the usual war protestors, get out of iraq, afghanistan etc I just hope the global warming dudes don't show up -

Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for American Revolution

Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.

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 zt379 
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Dylan Ratigan (rightfully) loses it on air



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 madLyfe 
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cw30000 View Post
They just need to organize it a bit.

I only have one question for them: What is taking them so long?

i think they need more than that.....


dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 Silver Dragon 
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Well, its official; the communist party, nazi party have pledged full support for the OWS movement. Combined that with the unions and democratic party and you have the makings of a winning team.

SD

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 Bermudan Option 
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well how has it gotten better by saving them? its actually gotten worse..

That is like me pushing you out of the way of oncoming traffic and you end up with a broken arm. You are only comparing how you felt when you were perfectly healthy vs having your arm broken... you need to factor in getting hit by a car going 90 mph before you complain about your broken arm....

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 madLyfe 
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That is like me pushing you out of the way of oncoming traffic and you end up with a broken arm. You are only comparing how you felt when you were perfectly healthy vs having your arm broken... you need to factor in getting hit by a car going 90 mph before you complain about your broken arm....

u played the role of the govt then is what your saying... maybe i shouldnt have been standing in the middle of the road... you will never learn that something is hot until you get burned.. free market, natural selection maybe? we just think differently i guess.. im not opposed to failure in the least, and actually its what makes us smarter:


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 Peter2150 
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An old man will most likely end the protests on Wall street. Anyone guess who that is?

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cedar
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... maybe i shouldnt have been standing in the middle of the road... you will never learn that something is hot until you get burned.. free market, natural selection maybe?.. im not opposed to failure in the least.

well I think that is the point, these banks knew that they are 'Too big to fail'. That is OK for them to stand in the middle of the road, take big risks, the Fed will rescue them. pull them out of the street as onion said.

In fall of 2008, the country was facing another great depression, the govt wisely made a choice to avoid it. and we settled for a prolonged recession. I would rather take 9% unemployment than 25% unemployment as was the case in 1930.

In 2006, a mexican store worker making 14k a year, somehow qualified for 250k home mortage. These wall street banks took his bogus mortgage and bundled it up with other similar mortgages, called it a CDO. got S&P to put a AAA rating on it. They made billions from these fradulant transactions. I think this is what the Occupy Wall street fight is about, should these bankers living in $10 million homes be held accountable for their fraudulent transactions?

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 madLyfe 
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cedar View Post
well I think that is the point, these banks knew that they are 'Too big to fail'. That is OK for them to stand in the middle of the road, take big risks, the Fed will rescue them. pull them out of the street as onion said.

In fall of 2008, the country was facing another great depression, the govt wisely made a choice to avoid it. and we settled for a prolonged recession. I would rather take 9% unemployment than 25% unemployment as was the case in 1930.

In 2006, a mexican store worker making 14k a year, somehow qualified for 250k home mortage. These wall street banks took his bogus mortgage and bundled it up with other similar mortgages, called it a CDO. got S&P to put a AAA rating on it. They made billions from these fradulant transactions. I think this is what the Occupy Wall street fight is about, should these bankers living in $10 million homes be held accountable for their fraudulent transactions?

you apparently dont remember that piece of legislation that was to 'put everyone in a house'...

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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 Peter2150 
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you apparently dont remember that piece of legislation that was to 'put everyone in a house'...

Yep. Good old Barnie Frank

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 JohnnyAustin 
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I attended Occupy Austin this weekend and spoke to several demonstrators about why they felt the need to go to the protest and stay. A common response that I got was that so many people came together from so many different walks of life because the government gave billions upon billions, possibly trillions, to banks whereas that money could have been spent on the public to much greater effect. The sense of community was very real for most as the actions taken by the banks and gov't had no benefit to them, only adverse conditions as a result. So no matter the social arena a person came from, all were here as victims of abuse and fraud.

In talking with some of the more entrenched people there (and being in IT myself), I saw something very interesting. The Occupy movement is creating a secure and nationwide wireless network to ensure the ability of free communication in case social media is shut off as an avenue of information dissemination.

Many thanks to the site and all the contributors. Great source of info.
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 Tarkus11 
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JohnnyAustin View Post
I attended Occupy Austin this weekend and spoke to several demonstrators about why they felt the need to go to the protest and stay. A common response that I got was that so many people came together from so many different walks of life because the government gave billions upon billions, possibly trillions, to banks whereas that money could have been spent on the public to much greater effect. The sense of community was very real for most as the actions taken by the banks and gov't had no benefit to them, only adverse conditions as a result. So no matter the social arena a person came from, all were here as victims of abuse and fraud.

In talking with some of the more entrenched people there (and being in IT myself), I saw something very interesting. The Occupy movement is creating a secure and nationwide wireless network to ensure the ability of free communication in case social media is shut off as an avenue of information dissemination.

IMO I think this is at the heart of the anger - that after a derivatives-based fiasco (derivatives not created by Joe Avg) that put us into another Great Depression, there has been no accountability.

There was an attempt by these same banks to make 50 state AG's sign off on a one-time payout of $30 Billion and immunity from future prosecutions. The effort was headed by the Iowa state AG - a democrat. It was an attempt to sweep the whole thing under the rug before the 2012 elections. Thankfully, it appears to have failed.

These government-suckled banks have in the recent past:

1) Created MERS, cheating states and localities out of filing fees on property sales.
2) Rigged municipal bond auctions
3) Created MBS that were designed to fail, had them fraudulently rated by Moodys, Standard & Poors, and Fitch, and then sold them to the rest of the world while lining their pockets with commissions and fees.
4) Helped Greece hide their debt so they could join the EU.
5) Used robo-signing to foreclose (because of MERS). Since submitting false documents in court is the same as perjury, they set up perjury-factories on an industrial scale.
6) Foreclosed on active service personnel. Illegal.
7) Passed on their failure to the public. (Still being bailed-out with ZIRP).
9) Warehoused raw material like aluminum and restricted delivery, driving the price up and essentially imposing their own "tax" on the supply-chain. (Coca-cola complained).
8) Other things too, I'm sure...

Bailing them out was corporate welfare on a massive scale.

No one that I know of can look at that list and call that capitalism. It is all predatory - not providing higher value and service - and based on their leverage and influence-and-attempted-influence + lobbying in government.

Politicians can smell campaign donations from miles away - and where do they go barking for it?

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 Zondor 
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It's important to understand that the banksters are parasites who are destroying the rest of the economy.

So let's hear more knee jerk complaints from drooling court jesters (who think they are part of the .001%) about the unwashed protestors who FORCED the banksters to drain trillions of dollars from everyone else... including YOU.


Nassim Taleb On #OccupyWallStreet And His Updated Views On The Global Banking System | ZeroHedge

New Economic Perspectives: Two Billion Dollars Lost because the FDIC Ignored United Commercial Bank’s Frauds

THiNKiNG ABouT CLoSiNG YouR TBTF BaNK ACCouNT? | ZeroHedge

We need some good tax "reform". Let's shower more rewards on the crooks who are DESTROYING America. The 999 plan has a zingy, catchy title that will appeal to morons, while delivering a nice little gift to the top crooks in the banking "industry". Any objections that might be raised to shifting more of the tax burden to those least able to pay should be dismissed as an incitement to Class Warfare. COUNT ME IN, HERMAN®!


(original artwork by the WilliamBanzai7 Institute! on ZeroHedge)

Here’s how the numbers break down by income level:
Less than $10,000: $1,122 more (19.5% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$10,000-$20,000: $2,705 more (17.8% increase, 19.7% tax rate)
$20,000-$30,000: $3,833 more (15.0% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$30,000-$40,000: $4,196 more (11.7% increase, 23.2% tax rate)
$40,000-$50,000: $4,399 more (9.5% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$50,000-$75,000: $4,326 more (6.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$75,000-$100,000: $4,368 more (4.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$100,000-$200,000: $2,105 more (1.5% increase, 23.1% tax rate)
$200,000-$500,000: $11,155 less (3.8% decrease, 20.6% tax rate)
$500,000-$1 million: $59,489 less (8.6% decrease, 18.1% tax rate)
$1 million or more: $455,247 less (15% decrease, 17.9% tax rate)

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 madLyfe 
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Zondor View Post
It's important to understand that the banksters are parasites who are destroying the rest of the economy.

So let's hear more complaints about the unwashed protestors who FORCED the banksters to drain trillions of dollars from everyone... including YOU.


Nassim Taleb On #OccupyWallStreet And His Updated Views On The Global Banking System | ZeroHedge

New Economic Perspectives: Two Billion Dollars Lost because the FDIC Ignored United Commercial Bank’s Frauds


We need some good tax "reform". Let's shower more rewards on the crooks who are DESTROYING America. The 999 plan has a nice catchy title that will appeal to morons, while delivering a nice little gift to the top crooks in the banking "industry". Any objections that might be raised to shifting more of the tax burden to those least able to pay should be dismissed as an incitement to Class Warfare. COUNT ME IN, HERMAN®!


Here’s how the numbers break down by income level:
Less than $10,000: $1,122 more (19.5% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$10,000-$20,000: $2,705 more (17.8% increase, 19.7% tax rate)
$20,000-$30,000: $3,833 more (15.0% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$30,000-$40,000: $4,196 more (11.7% increase, 23.2% tax rate)
$40,000-$50,000: $4,399 more (9.5% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$50,000-$75,000: $4,326 more (6.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$75,000-$100,000: $4,368 more (4.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$100,000-$200,000: $2,105 more (1.5% increase, 23.1% tax rate)
$200,000-$500,000: $11,155 less (3.8% decrease, 20.6% tax rate)
$500,000-$1 million: $59,489 less (8.6% decrease, 18.1% tax rate)
$1 million or more: $455,247 less (15% decrease, 17.9% tax rate)

the govt. are the parasites who are destroying the rest of the economy.

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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 Tarkus11 
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Zondor View Post
It's important to understand that the banksters are parasites who are destroying the rest of the economy.

So let's hear more knee jerk complaints from drooling court jesters (who think they are part of the .001%) about the unwashed protestors who FORCED the banksters to drain trillions of dollars from everyone... including YOU.


Nassim Taleb On #OccupyWallStreet And His Updated Views On The Global Banking System | ZeroHedge

New Economic Perspectives: Two Billion Dollars Lost because the FDIC Ignored United Commercial Bank’s Frauds

THiNKiNG ABouT CLoSiNG YouR TBTF BaNK ACCouNT? | ZeroHedge

We need some good tax "reform". Let's shower more rewards on the crooks who are DESTROYING America. The 999 plan has a zingy, catchy title that will appeal to morons, while delivering a nice little gift to the top crooks in the banking "industry". Any objections that might be raised to shifting more of the tax burden to those least able to pay should be dismissed as an incitement to Class Warfare. COUNT ME IN, HERMAN®!


(original artwork by the WilliamBanzai7 Institute! on ZeroHedge)

Here’s how the numbers break down by income level:
Less than $10,000: $1,122 more (19.5% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$10,000-$20,000: $2,705 more (17.8% increase, 19.7% tax rate)
$20,000-$30,000: $3,833 more (15.0% increase, 22.1% tax rate)
$30,000-$40,000: $4,196 more (11.7% increase, 23.2% tax rate)
$40,000-$50,000: $4,399 more (9.5% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$50,000-$75,000: $4,326 more (6.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$75,000-$100,000: $4,368 more (4.9% increase, 23.8% tax rate)
$100,000-$200,000: $2,105 more (1.5% increase, 23.1% tax rate)
$200,000-$500,000: $11,155 less (3.8% decrease, 20.6% tax rate)
$500,000-$1 million: $59,489 less (8.6% decrease, 18.1% tax rate)
$1 million or more: $455,247 less (15% decrease, 17.9% tax rate)

In that interview, Taleb says that banks are projected to extract over $5 trillion from the economy over the next 10 yrs via their salaries and bonuses.

That's a lot of money.

But the big banks get their funding from the Federal Reserve (and at this point, savers who are getting no returns on their savings, though that does allow the big banks to borrow from the Fed cheaply).

So what the heck are they doing that is worth that much when they are basically funded by the Fed and the taxpayes??


And if you have deposits with B of A - Watch Out!!

The short form via Bloomberg:

Bank of America Corp. (BAC), hit by a credit downgrade last month, has moved derivatives from its Merrill Lynch unit to a subsidiary flush with insured deposits, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation…

Depositors and FDIC are on the hook for their derivatives! Yikes!!

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 Tarkus11 
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“The highest court in Massachusetts ruled that a homeowner who bought a foreclosure that hadn’t been properly conducted by the foreclosing bank in 2006 didn’t have legal ownership of the property.

The decision by the Supreme Judicial Court casts a cloud over the legal ownership of any properties in Massachusetts where banks didn’t properly convey title when foreclosing. The problem has gained attention nationwide because of banks’ use of “robo-signing” and other dubious practices that may have broken chains of title on foreclosures.

The case follows a previous state court decision that voided a foreclosure when banks couldn’t prove that they owned mortgages when they initiated foreclosure proceedings.”


This is a byproduct of lack of accountability for the mortgage fraud. Bailed-out banks are trying to create a 2-tiered justice system, where fines paid for criminality become just a cost of "business". Their creation of MERS has broken the chain of property rights by destroying the transfer-of-title process.

Mainstream media does not report on this, so people defend this kind of behavior as "capitalism" out of ignorance.

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 Joseph 
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I apologise for being a bit of a late comer to the subject (only joined futures.io (formerly BMT) a short time ago).
By observing the inspiring phenomenon that started out as Occupy Wall Street (OWS) one cannot ignore a fundamental fact: the US is ripe for a major “re-engineering” project.

Taking a somewhat historical perspective, the US was the single most important factor in dismantling the worst intellectual and governance detour mankind has ever ventured onto: socialism based on Marxism and Leninism. Subsequent to that, the United States unfortunately stopped being the beacon of democracy for the past couple of decades.

The problems, of which OWS is the result of, started shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. When 35,000 Soviet nuclear warheads were no longer pointed at North America and the sheer existence of the country is no longer at stake, a massive drop in the quality among the new entrants into US politics has taken place especially in terms of their moral stature. This resulted in the current generation of US politicians that is mainly motivated by personal career gains and commercial “grab”. Once the US no longer had to face the grave challenges posed by a dangerous enemy (the Soviet Union), its political leadership - previously committed to the protection of the United States and the Western civilization - has managed to find new and tempting areas of interest.

The US is plagued by serious deficiencies; just to name a few:

1. Democratic representation
a. Every State can send 2 Senators to Washington. That means California is represented by 2 Senators and the next 21 states with population less that California’s are represented by 42 Senators. If the term democracy comes from the Greek word of dēmokratía ( = "rule of the people") then there could be an issue here.

b. Winner takes it all. If one party in the US can win 50% + 1 vote in all precincts, it can have 100% of the seats in the Senate (for example), leaving 49.9% of the population without representation.
Most developed Western nations left the “Winner takes it all” model, and implemented proportional representation. In such models (using the above example), the winner would take over 50 seats and the loser would end up with around 40 or so seats.

2. Choices of Candidates
The US voters do not really have “true” choices. To get into and to stay in US politics is extremely costly. True talent, real intellectual capacity and moral stature can easily be beaten by well funded PR campaigns put together by spin doctor specialists, leaving the US voters only with alternatives presented to them by holders of money, i.e. special interest groups.
Just as a side note: the Canadian election laws are extremely stringent (and successful) to curb the “undue influence of money in politics”. The US system works exactly the other way around.


3. US democracy = Corporatism
Anyone running in US politics has to be either very rich or must have access to sponsors with deep pockets. That is the reason the US is being governed by a (mostly) bought Congress and its judiciary is also heavily penetrated by Big Business, especially Wall Street.

OWS raises a long list of issues that are not difficult to agree with. It is clear to many Americans that the System is badly broken. What we have been witnessing in the wake of the 2008 financial meltdown was a massive judicial meltdown in the United States. It is actually quite alarming to see how effectively a small group of influential elite disabled the entire judicial machinery of the US past 2008 (some spotty examples to the contrary are not very convincing). No surprise that so many people are outraged, even though only a very small percentage of the crimes committed are known in detail and even the full extent of the financial destruction is not well understood by the protesters (especially beyond the borders of the US).

One important thing is becoming more and more clear to people: what was committed against them and at their expense is a result of the incestuous relationship between Wall Street and the US Government. It is becoming more and more clear that the US Government has been occupied by Wall Street for the past two - three decades and this gave birth to the criminal industry that turned out to be financially much more destructive than all previous financial crisis and both World Wars combined!!! This criminal industry has been / is able to derail the US justice with an incredible rate of effectiveness.

It seems to me that what OWS has is a perfect “business case” for a revolution (using this word in the most civilized, humane, forward looking, humane dimensions and constructive term). What it does not have is the LEADER and until the leader emerges, the chances for measurable success are in doubt.

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 bluemele 
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We were never a democracy.

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 forrestang 
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Democracy == A sheep sitting at a dinner table with 3 wolves and asking, "Whats for dinner?"

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
Democracy == A sheep sitting at a dinner table with 3 wolves and asking, "Whats for dinner?"

That sounds even better as a definition of the "Buy and Hold" investor!


Quoting 
We were never a democracy.

Agreed! We live in what was defined in the Constitution as a Republic, not a democracy. Democracy is mob rule. A Republic is a government of LAWS promulgated and carried out by elected representatives. What shall we call it when the rule of law has been subverted by the ruling elites for their own short term private enrichment? The terms oligarchy, kleptocracy, banana republic.. and late Roman empire come to mind.

That's why I maintain that most Tea Party folks have more in common with #OWS than they do with the koch Brothers, who bankroll and steer the Tea Party. But that idea did not originate with me.

Tea Party Founder Karl Denninger Backs #OccupyWallStreet | AmpedStatus

If you think you are more knowledgeable than Karl about why the Tea Party was started in the first place, let me know.

Why does he have to go on RUSSIAN TV to express his views? What does that tell you about the corporate mega media in this country? I don't think even MSNBC would be comfortable with "Stop the Looting and Start Prosecuting".

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 Tiberius 
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It's easier for OWS to blame Wall Street then blaming Franklin Raines, Tim Howard, and Jim Johnson; the "3 Men Who Brought Down Wall Street" and blew up our financial system; who are all now serving as top economic advisers to Barack Obama; then blaming the present administration that was put in place to cover up the activities of these three along with the 3 from the Clinton Dream Team: Summers, Rubin and Greenspan.


Rubin, Greenspan & Summers: The 3 who allowed "Wall Street" to develop and engage in mortgage derivatives.


WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works for the Obama Campaign as his Chief Economic Advisor.
TIM HOWARD? Howard is a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama under Franklin Raines.
JIM JOHNSON? Johnson was hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee.

It is this powerful crowd who encouraged Obama to run for President so he could get the easy win and cover up their financial destruction. It's all about the president's men. Obama is their sock puppet.

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 bluemele 
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Tiberius View Post

It is this powerful crowd who encouraged Obama to run for President so he could get the easy win and cover up their financial destruction. It's all about the president's men. Obama is their sock puppet.

YUP. YUP. So was Bush, so were all the Presidents that we have had. Amazing isn't it.

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 Tiberius 
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bluemele View Post
YUP. YUP. So was Bush, so were all the Presidents that we have had. Amazing isn't it.

wow, Bush was sure a sock puppet ..... the Neocons had a field day with him. And he knew all about the housing & derivatives bubbles and did nothing about it.

Glad, I don't vote for sock puppets.

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 zt379 
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Ha ...
Long Island couple tries to trademark "Occupy Wall Street" | End the Lie - Independent News

"Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile..." zt379
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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
It's easier for OWS to blame Wall Street then blaming Franklin Raines, Tim Howard, and Jim Johnson; the "3 Men Who Brought Down Wall Street" and blew up our financial system; who are all now serving as top economic advisers to Barack Obama; then blaming the present administration that was put in place to cover up the activities of these three along with the 3 from the Clinton Dream Team: Summers, Rubin and Greenspan.

How do YOU know who they are "blaming"?

The key issue for actual Conservatives is the rampant lawlessness under which the Elites are now operating. But anyone can call himself a "Conservative", especially if you are one of the true beneficiaries of the kleptocratic form of oligarchical government.

Don't kid yourself, that beneficiary status doesn't apply to anyone who would be in this forum. There are 400 people in this country, and YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM, whose combined wealth equals that of the 150 million in the bottom half. They see you as their slaves. They laugh at you. Parroting their dogmas will not earn you any points with them unless you are on their payrolls.

Glenn Greenwald: Why Is the Elite Class Protected Under America's Justice System? | Truthout



Quoting 
Actually, what is happening with the Occupy Wall Street protests is as perfect an illustration of the book's argument as anything I could have imagined. The book's central theme is that law is no longer what it was intended to be - a set of rules equally binding everyone to ensure that outcome inequalities are at least legitimate - and instead has become the opposite: a tool used by the politically and financially powerful to entrench their own power and control the society. That's how and why the law now destroys equality and protects the powerful.

What we see with the protests demonstrates exactly how that works. The police force - the instrument of law enforcement - is being used to protect powerful criminals who have suffered no consequences for their crimes. It is simultaneously used to coerce and punish the powerless: those who are protesting and who have done nothing wrong, yet are subjected to an array of punishment ranging from arrest to pepper spray and other forms of abuse.

And yes, we are talking about massive, REAL crimes, clear violations of black letter law on a massive scale by the banksters, the politicians, AND the regulators, (including many swinish individuals who have worn more than one of those hats) that are not being prosecuted. With no Rule of Law, there is no Republic. The Crime Wave has been totally bipartisan and goes back at least 20 years. For Presidente Barack Obankster it's nothing but a continuation of business as usual.

This is what happens when the Rule of Law goes out the window while the comfortable do nothing.


Quoting 
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

.... attributed to Martin Niemoller


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 bluemele 
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Zondor View Post


And yes, we are talking about massive, REAL crimes, clear violations of black letter law on a massive scale by the banksters, the politicians, AND the regulators, (including many swinish individuals who have worn more than one of those hats) that are not being prosecuted. With no Rule of Law, there is no Republic. The Crime Wave has been totally bipartisan and goes back at least 20 years. For Presidente Barack Obankster it's nothing but a continuation of business as usual.

This is what happens when the Rule of Law goes out the window while the comfortable do nothing.

I agree with you here! The lack of transparency and the protectionism among the elites is the real problem I believe. Of course, I am known to be wrong 70% of the time. But, when I am right, I let them ride. haha....

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 Tiberius 
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Zondor View Post
How do YOU know who they are "blaming"?

I do not know who they are blaming, I have not talked to any of them. Besides "Wall Street" is a general label for capitalism in the US as banking and investment. No? Enlighten me.


Zondor View Post
The key issue for actual Conservatives is the rampant lawlessness under which the Elites are now operating. But anyone can call himself a "Conservative", especially if you are one of the true beneficiaries of the kleptocratic form of oligarchical government.

Don't kid yourself, that beneficiary status doesn't apply to anyone who would be in this forum. There are 400 people in this country, and YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM, whose combined wealth equals that of the 150 million in the bottom half. They see you as their slaves. They laugh at you. Parroting their dogmas will not earn you any points with them unless you are on their payrolls.

This is not a mystery. Only unknown to rubes and dopes; the history of civilization is built on the gullibility of them. If not, tell me more.





Zondor View Post
And yes, we are talking about massive, REAL crimes, clear violations of black letter law on a massive scale by the banksters, the politicians, AND the regulators, (including many swinish individuals who have worn more than one of those hats) that are not being prosecuted. With no Rule of Law, there is no Republic. The Crime Wave has been totally bipartisan and goes back at least 20 years. For Presidente Barack Obankster it's nothing but a continuation of business as usual.

This is what happens when the Rule of Law goes out the window while the comfortable do nothing.

Again no mystery. Only for the dross who will vote either Democratic or Republican in the next election. But only 20 years?


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 Tarkus11 
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Zondor View Post
And yes, we are talking about massive, REAL crimes, clear violations of black letter law on a massive scale by the banksters, the politicians, AND the regulators, (including many swinish individuals who have worn more than one of those hats) that are not being prosecuted. With no Rule of Law, there is no Republic.

I think people feel this on a visceral level (unfortunately, many don't seem to be able to articulate it). The most disturbing thing IMO was the attempt to coerce 50 state AG's into a $30 billion settlement for ALL the banks when BofA paid something like that alone for only one charge leveled against it.

The false documents (robo-signing) flooding the courts can't be "administrative paperwork errors" because they are still submitting them. They are pretty confident it will all be forgiven somehow (hope their campaign contributions are up to date).

The importance of property rights is pretty basic to the rule of law - helped separate the US from the old serfdom system back in merry ol' England. Since the chain of title process is royally screwed by the MERS mess, we may have to kiss a cornerstone of the Republic goodbye, because, as they tell us, if we make the TBTF banks obey the law, it will hurt the economy. :P

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 Zondor 
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Now we have a vet who served two tours in Iraq getting a fractured skull for having the nerve to exercise his First Amendment rights. This is not good. Dateline Oakland: FELONIOUS ASSAULT By Police? in [Market-Ticker]

Maybe NATO needs to be called in to liberate Oakland from a tyrannical dictator.

Tarkus raised a good point. The MERS shenanigans have undermined the integrity of the entire system of recording the ownership of real estate throughout the whole county. There is a recent MA court decision casting doubt on the validity of ownership of any house purchased at a foreclosure sale That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Even homeowners who are current on their mortgages are filing Quiet Title actions to be released from the obligation to make payments to servicing entities who cannot prove that they represent the legal owner of the mortgage. Due to the intentional destruction of records by MERS, most mortgage holders of record, more likely than not, do not have the documents necessary to document ownership of "their" loans.

Do you have a mortgage? Ask your servicer for a copy of the deed and the note and see how far you get. If valid documents are not produced, you theoretically have grounds for legal action to obtain Quiet Title. Upon winning such an action you would no longer owe anything to a mortgagor judged to NOT be the legal; owner of your loan.

No harm asking your servicer for the deed and title, but consult a licensed attorney before doing anything else. This is not to be considered legal advice.

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 Tarkus11 
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No harm asking your servicer for the deed and title, but consult a licensed attorney before doing anything else. This is not to be considered legal advice.

I think that is called "being a deadbeat.'

Instead, you could opt for the capitalistic way and call it "Strategic Default", like the Mortgage Bankers Association did.

https://www.mortgage-mod-monster.com/strategic-default-ok-for-mortgage-bankers-association-but-not-for-you/

“The CEO of the powerful Mortgage Bankers Association, John Courson, has said that underwater borrowers should keep paying on their mortgage loans and ‘should not walk away from lawful debts’. In an interview this past year, Courson appeared genuinely concerned adding: ‘What about the message they will send to their family and their kids and their friends?’
This past week, the Co-Star Group, Inc., indicated that it had agreed to buy the MBA’s 10-story headquarters building in DC for $41.3 million. The only problem is that $41.3 million comes up a skosh shy of the $75 million first mortgage on the building that the MBA took out from PNC Financial Group way back in 2007, when they purchased the property for $79 million.
The very same MBA also defaulted on their payments and secured a forbearance agreement, prior to the short sale. Nicely done, Johnny-O.
-------------------------------------------------
I think a problem lurking in the background of the MERS/Robo-signing issue is that, if the courts and/or our wonderful politicians give them a free pass on it, that effectively puts them above the law (unless they decide to let everyone submit false documents in court).

Not sure how you'd get title insurance going forward in a case like the Massachusetts decision either....

Also, it would mean that no matter how diligent you are in paying your mortgage or even if you paid if off, some dude working for a big bank could robo-sign a doc in his back office and tell you - "Nope, this is mine."

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 bluemele 
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So, why would someone feel it is not their obligation to commit to finishing the terms of the arrangement they made to pay for a house utilizing funds from a 3rd party (whether it be a big bad bank or not)?

Help me understand all this "I am THE victim" mindset? I agree with you @Zondor on a few subjects, but you believe that "MERS" has been maliciously destroying documents (like the likes of Enron?) to cover-up and somehow profit? Is MERS a big robot with a big signing arm just excited to sign stuff because the guys @ MIT created it.

Help me understand the issue with "Robo-signing" and why it is so evil?

Maybe we should all just walk away from our obligations to ourselves, our families, our business partners, our country, and our fellow man and go squat in the jungle for a while?

You are preaching Anarchy and it is to the point of "what is the point?".

By the way, you can get a copy of the DEED from your local county recorders office. The NOTE and mortgage are between mortgagor and mortgagee. Mortgage is nothing more that attaches the NOTE to the DEED for legal purposes that gives additional documentation and promise to pay in a legal venue. (I know you know this Zondor but just enlightening those that may not)

Just because your Mortgage/Note (promise to pay) was transferred from the originating entity to another party, this doesn't violate (most likely if done traditionally) the mortgage or note. It is fully transferable and may be conveyed without Mortgagor's permission. It says it right in the mortgage documents which you were supposed to read and keep a copy.

I am trying to figure out what would be the angle from your posts as if everyone just walks away because companies hold their mortgage than we are all screwed because when you widdle things down, you will realize, we are working in/for these companies in some fashion, and in some way. There really is not a "Bank of America" etc. and they are just an extension of all of us.

I believe what needs to be the focus is to produce positive and critical steps to move forward and not just rant. We all know reform needs to be made, but how can you when you have a corrupt political system?

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 josh 
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Great article.

Bring It On, “We Are Smarter And More Vicious”: Wall Street Responds With Leaflet Bomb On #OccupyChicago at Pat Dollard

In Chicago, written and dropped from windows is a letter to the OWS protesters:


Quoting 
We are Wall Street. It’s our job to make money. Whether it’s a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn’t matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable. I didn’t hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 14,000 and everyone’s 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, its not a problem until you lose. I’ve never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.

Well now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back somewhat, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.

Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you’re only going to hurt yourselves. What’s going to happen when we can’t find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We’re going to take yours. We get up at 5am & work till 10pm or later. We’re used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don’t take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don’t demand a union. We don’t retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we’ll eat that.

For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing landscaping? We’re going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year and whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime and double time and a half. I’ll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team for $5k extra a summer, thank you very much.

So now that we’re going to be making $85k a year without upside, Joe Mainstreet is going to have his revenge, right? Wrong! Guess what: we’re going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren’t going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We’re going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.

The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but it’s really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat asses land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom.

We aren’t dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Mainstreet our food supply…will he? and will they?


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 Eric j 
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Im in manhattan often and it looked like a deadhead get together . It hasnt gotten too cold in NYC yet and when it does they'll disperse to warmer causes . Disclaimer - I love the grateful dead .


Quick update on my weather theory .......

Today

10/27/2011

Hi: 56°
Rain. Highs in the mid 50s. Northwest winds around 10 mph...becoming north this afternoon. Chance of rain near 100 percent.



Lo: 37°
Cloudy with rain in the evening...then partly cloudy with a slight chance of rain after midnight. Breezy and cooler with lows in the upper 30s. Northwest winds 15 to 20 mph with gusts up to 35 mph. Chance of rain 80 percent.





Friday

10/28/2011


Hi: 52°
Sunny. Highs in the lower 50s. Northwest winds 10 to 15 mph.



Lo: 40°
Mostly clear in the evening...then becoming partly cloudy. Lows in the upper 30s. Northeast winds 5 to 10 mph.






Saturday

10/29/2011


Hi: 50°
Mostly cloudy with a 50 percent chance of rain. Breezy with highs around 50. Northeast winds 15 to 20 mph.



Lo: 42°

Its getting chilly and wet out there . I was in NYC a few times during the last week or two and saw some of the protesters doing their thing and a lot of NYPD padding their paychecks on OT . Looks like snow north of there so they better get some warm clothes forthwith .

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 liquidcci 
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I lived in NYC a few years back and this would be considered mild weather by New Yorkers. Wait until they start waking up with 12 degree temps and highs that never get over 20 for weeks on end. It can go months and never get above freezing. Also throw in miserable amounts of snow in the mix. I hated how long the winters would go and I was not in a tent in a park in Manhattan. One February we had a day that got to 48 degrees we thought it was summer and contemplated going to the beach. Instead we went ice skating in Central Park with no coats. No coats in February was like a dream come true but only lasted for a day.


Eric j View Post
Quick update on my weather theory .......


Its getting chilly and wet out there . I was in NYC a few times during the last week or two and saw some of the protesters doing their thing and a lot of NYPD padding their paychecks on OT . Looks like snow north of there so they better get some warm clothes forthwith .


"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
Im in manhattan often and it looked like a deadhead get together

Sire, I kneel before thee. YOU are SO MUCH BETTER than they are. Gas them. Kill them. Sie sind Untermenschen. Sie sind ein Mitglied des Königshauses.



Quoting 
This incident disproves lies told by the corporate media who try to demonize the diverse members of the Occupy movement with words like “hippies.” In the four times that I have been at Occupy Santa Rosa, I have seen numerous Veterans for Peace, professors, physicians, families, and many students and others who do not fit that demeaning stereotype. Diversity is the signature of this movement for the 99% against the 1% who rule the United States.


Marine Down in Oakland Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


Quoting 
Scott Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, but his life could be over after being critically injured by a police projectile at Occupy Oakland, The Guardian reports. He's 24 years old.
As we know, Occupy Oakland got incredibly ugly this week as police tried to remove protesters from their camp in front of City Hall by using tear gas, fire crackers, and rubber bullets.


Read more: Veteran Scott Olsen Could Be The First Person To Die At A Wall Street Protest


Quoting 
The injury to Olsen is a shot being heard around the world, like the Kent State murders during the Vietnam War, though so far less deadly. Occupiers and supporters are calling for the prosecution of the police responsible for this brutality, which could impede future police violence.

Iraq Veterans Against the War, of which Olsen is a member, writes that he “is one of many veterans who have returned home and gotten involved in the Occupy protests taking place in hundreds of cities around the nation. Veterans like Scott recognize that they are part of the 99% who face uncertain economic futures, including few job prospects and rising tuition costs. Rates of homelessness and unemployment are higher for veterans than for their civilian counterparts.”

“I’m absolutely devastated that someone who did two tours of Iraq and came home safely is now lying in a US hospital because of the domestic police force,” his friend and hospital visitor Adele Carpenter told the UK’s Guardian. Olsen served in Iraq in 2006 and 2007 with the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines and left the military in 2010. It is ironic that Olsen’s injury was sustained in the streets of Oakland, which the police transformed into a war zone.


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 furytrader 
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Sorry, Zondor, but simply because someone served in the military doesn't make them experts on America's socio-economic system. Like everyone else, veterans can do stupid things too - which is why there are roughly 140,000 of them currently in prison.


Quoting 
"The injury to Olsen is a shot being heard around the world, like the Kent State murders during the Vietnam War, though so far less deadly. Occupiers and supporters are calling for the prosecution of the police responsible for this brutality, which could impede future police violence."

Are you serious?

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 cw30000 
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I'm starting to see a bunch of idiots out there. I am sure the USA will be becoming USSA soon because of this group thinking government is the solution to everything instead of the problem.

They want other to pay more tax but just not them.


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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
I'm starting to see a bunch of idiots out there. I am sure the USA will be becoming USSA soon because of this group thinking government is the solution to everything instead of the problem.

They want other to pay more tax but just not them.

Of course, you are right. I said a long time ago that Bernard Madoff should have been appointed as Secretary of the Treasury, don't you agree?

By the way, the plural of other is otherS. You DO know what "plural" means, don't you?

The wealthy are being taxed at the lowest rates of the past 60 years. Instead of lowering their taxes, they should be given the right to levy taxes directly on everyone else. Oh wait, they already do that with their monopolies! Think of THAT the next time you pay your mortgage, utility bill, "health" insurance....

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 bluemele 
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Zondor View Post
Of course, you are right. I said a long time ago that Bernard Madoff should have been appointed as Secretary of the Treasury, don't you agree?

By the way, the plural of other is otherS. You DO know what "plural" means, don't you?

I don't think it would make any difference. Madoff was doing exactly what we already do... He probably would have gotten even more investment from the Chinese. haha..

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cedar
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Not all OWS protestors live in tents in Zaccotti park, only a tiny minority. Cold weather will be an issue, but not a big one. With $500,000 in the bank and about 100k pouring in every week, a lot of momentum. Good luck to them, about time someone stood up for the 99%.

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 cw30000 
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I honestly have no problem with the OWS, but what I am having problem is that they are protesting at the wrong blocks.

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 Zondor 
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They must have limited their sample to the family of George Soros.


Quoting 
A new survey from Spectrem Group found that 68% of millionaires (those with investments of $1 million or more) support raising taxes on those with $1 million or more in income. Fully 61% of those with net worths of $5 million or more support the tax on million-plus earners.

Millionaires Support Warren Buffett’s Tax on the Rich - The Wealth Report - WSJ

Oh well, you know you can't take the Wall Street Journal seriously, they are so far left.

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 Tarkus11 
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Here's some background on MERS, and why it is an issue in the mortgage mess.

Law Expert: MERS Mess Could Have “a Massive Effect on the Economy” | FDL News Desk

"It’s important to know from the beginning that MERS is a wholly owned subsidiary of big financial institutions. The mortgage bankers wanted to avoid recording fees and reduce their overall expenditures. So they basically devised a method that would free them from those fees, ran an accounting study showing the savings, and just created MERS. There was no public debate or legislative statute to overturn what had been the customary practice for generations. The money backing MERS came from investors, according to Peterson, including some of the biggest banks and mortgage brokers in the country like Bank of America, Citi, and Countrywide, as well as Fannie Mae. You can see all their shareholders right here. It’s just a creation of the banks."

"
While MERS stipulates that the servicers must convey the promissory notes to MERS, it appears they didn’t do that in all or even most cases, and the underlying paperwork could be lost."

----------------------
Also, when the mortgages were bundled in the securitization process, I think the "loss of paperwork" makes them in violation of Trust law, and the tax treatment they receive.

It looks like a mess, and the "robo-signing" used to "fix" it is another story altogether.

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  #162 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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cedar View Post
Not all OWS protestors live in tents in Zaccotti park, only a tiny minority. Cold weather will be an issue, but not a big one. With $500,000 in the bank and about 100k pouring in every week, a lot of momentum. Good luck to them, about time someone stood up for the 99%.


What? money in the bank? So do you think they have a account at one of the banks they are protesting?

Wonder if they are paying taxes? if not they should be. To my knowledge they are not a non-profit therefore they should be paying taxes. After all they should pay there fair share too!!

500,000 is nice piece of change. Under the obama tax code they are considered rich. In which case they should be taxed more!

Kinda of catch 22... How do you protest the rich without becoming rich yourself? It appears they are well on their way at failing at this too.

Did you hear they are paying bums to protest? 10 bucks a hour! They might even hire you Zondor!


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  #163 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Video proof of what happened to Scott Olsen, the man critically injured by police at an Occupy protest:



I'm also attaching the mp4 video to this post.

Mike

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  #164 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Quoting 
From yesterday in New York, which people keep trying to tell me is full of Marxists and Communists, with the entire protest run by George Soros and kicks out anyone who actually makes sense.


But The News Said They&#039;re All Marxists? in [Market-Ticker]



Quoting 
Rachel Maddow Makes Sense?!


I must be seeing and hearing things - both at once. I've never watched this show as my first reaction when someone has it on is to immediately be compelled to stimulate the economy (to replace my smashed television set.)

But this is a watershed moment.

Really.


Rachel Maddow Makes Sense?! in [Market-Ticker]

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  #165 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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Big Mike View Post
Video proof of what happened to Scott Olsen, the man critically injured by police at an Occupy protest:



I'm also attaching the mp4 video to this post.

Mike




Great video Mike. Lets look this guys mistakes:
  • The guy was standing between the barricades, a place where he not supposed to be! These barricades are there for a reason!
  • He was standing 5 feet from people with guns! As the video pointed out, when you stand too close to guns you tend to get shot!
  • After the first shot was fired, he did not duck. Interesting that a veteran of a war did not duck when shots were fired.
This video should sent out to all other protestors on “what not to do at a protest”. I wonder if this guy was even a vet. He didn’t even duck when the first shot was fired. Probably a homeless guy dressed up as a vet. Either that or he was higher than the profits of the banks they are protesting.

I have to laugh. You guys are trying to make a hero out of idiot.


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  #166 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Quoting 
Great video Mike. Lets look this guys mistakes:
The guy was standing between the barricades, a place where he not supposed to be! These barricades are there for a reason!
He was standing 5 feet from people with guns! As the video pointed out, when you stand too close to guns you tend to get shot!
After the first shot was fired, he did not duck. Interesting that a veteran of a war did not duck when shots were fired.
This video should sent out to all other protestors on “what not to do at a protest”. I wonder if this guy was even a vet. He didn’t even duck when the first shot was fired. Probably a homeless guy dressed up as a vet. Either that or he was higher than the profits of the banks they are protesting.

I have to laugh. You guys are trying to make a hero out of idiot.


I have to cry that an adult human being can think like this. Very sad. Or maybe deliberate provocation.

When the City of Oakland is sued, we'll see if this proves to be a durable defense argument.



Quoting 
The cops have been trying to suppress dissemination of video evidence of their unlawful behavior as well. So far Google (which owns Youtube) is refusing at least some of the removal requests, although the most-recent report pre-dates these protests. Now why would the authorities want video documentation of their lawless behavior removed from view, eh? "Freedom of the Press", right? Uh huh... just like all the "mainstream media" reports of the protesters all being hippies and Communists are true.... right?
.... (Karl Denninger)


Right, they are doing that to protect the privacy of the demonstrators so that people don't see that the demonstrators are idiots

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196695

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  #167 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
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Zondor View Post
I have to cry that an adult human being can think like this.

When the City of Oakland is sued, we'll see if this proves to be a durable defense argument.

Attached is your box of tissue.

if they do sue it proves they can not take responsibility for their own actions.

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 Tarkus11 
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I think the OWS may only be about Wall St peripherally. It may be more about equal justice (of lack of it) under the law. The way the polticians/courts treat robo-signing will be telling. It doesn't matter if you believe those being foreclosed on are all deadbeats - perjuring the court system is not the approach to take.

The protests look more to be about the tendency that people/companies who have lots of money having more influence to turn government in their direction, and visa versa in a feedback loop.

I would agree that protestors might be better served protesting in D.C., but advocates for that never mention that they would not be going there to demand government keep it's hands off Wall St. Maybe the Tea Party would, but not OWS people. So advocating they march on D.C. to change D.C.'s approach would likely bring more regulation, not less.

Also, as far as location, there are enough people who move back and forth between business to lobbying firms to DC anyway.

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 Zondor 
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The former top bank regulator/investigator/prosecutor who put thousands of banksters in jail after the S and L fiasco....

Bill Black @ #occupywallstreet on Arresting Banksters - YouTube

Since rampant runway FRAUD caused the mess we are in, the Hands Off Wall Street approach may not be the best, since it is guaranteed to lead to a repetition of the same behavior. That is, if we even ever get the chance to have a "next time".

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  #170 (permalink)
 Tiberius 
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This is what I posted on facebook under the Scott Olsen vid from BigMike, I downloaded to FB.

"Go OWS, (Tiberius) is behind you all the way. Down with the fascist police. But OWS you are looking the wrong way; it is the Obama Fannie Mae Adminstration that is in place to cover up the crimes of the Clinton Dream Team: Rubin, Greenspan & Summers; and the "3 who took down Wall Street": Raines, Howard & Johnson. WAKE UP OWS."

And I posted this as a reply to another story post.

"I am a liberal. A libertarian, the original liberal who wants liberty and prosperity for all. You must be talking about the progressive liberal that infests the Democratic party, who wants the opposite. Don't even get me started with the progressive conservative Republican party, who hand in hand with their DC counterpart has destroyed Amerika."

Remember this IMHO. That's all, not earth shaking. I share futures.io (formerly BMT) stuff on FB too. Just click "like".

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 Tarkus11 
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Tiberius View Post
This is what I posted on facebook under the Scott Olsen vid from BigMike, I downloaded to FB.

"Go OWS, (Tiberius) is behind you all the way. Down with the fascist police. But OWS you are looking the wrong way; it is the Obama Fannie Mae Adminstration that is place to cover up the crimes of the Clinton Dream Team: Rubin, Greenspan & Summers; and the "3 who took down Wall Street": Raines, Howard & Johnson. WAKE UP OWS."

All true. Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, and allowed derivatives to be unregulated. The advocates for that, however, were Graham-Leach-Biliey. Everybody has his hand in the pie.

Also, the financial institutions were allowed to leverage up 30-40:1 in 2004 or 5 (don't recall atm), turning a Bang into a KA-BOOM!

That actually points out the problem in the whole financial meltdown, because the front-man gets switched but a lot of the guys standing behind the curtain ended up being kept on anyway. You'd think that William Black, who has experience with the S&L would be called upon, but nope.

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 furytrader 
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Regarding Scott Olsen, the man injured at the Occupy Oakland protest, I am sorry that he and anyone else got injured during that protest. I have a lot of respect for the Marines but apparently this guy didn't:

See: Iraq War Veteran Injured at OWS Oakland Founder of IHateTheMarineCorps.com | Verum Serum

It's hard to get too enthused about someone who creates a website called "IHateTheMarineCorps.com" ...

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 Tarkus11 
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And now MERS gets sued...

Delaware AG Beau Biden Sues MERS | FDL News Desk

The crux of the problem is if, as in this this article,
Law Expert: MERS Mess Could Have “a Massive Effect on the Economy” | FDL News Desk
the statement "While MERS stipulates that the servicers must convey the promissory notes to MERS, it appears they didn’t do that in all or even most cases, and the underlying paperwork could be lost." is true.

If they were required to pass on the promissory notes but "lost" them, then they were not conducting their business in a competent/legal way. MERS is said to hold 60 million mortgages. That's a lot of mistakes.

What is supposed to happen to businesses that do not conduct their business in a competent/legal way in a capitalist economy?

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 Zondor 
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Olsen seems to be making a good recovery.


Quoting 
Despite the financial underpinnings of the protests, Olsen himself wasn't taking part out of economic need.
His friends say he makes a good living as a network engineer and has a nice apartment overlooking San Francisco Bay. Still, he felt so strongly about economic inequality in the United States that he fought for overseas that he slept at a protest camp after work.
"He felt you shouldn't wait until something is affecting you to get out and do something about it," said friend and roommate Keith Shannon, who served with Olsen in Iraq.

People at OPSWAT, the San Francisco security software company where Olsen works, were devastated after learning of his injuries. They described him as a humble, quiet man.
Olsen had been helping to develop security applications for U.S. defense agencies, building on expertise gained while on active duty in Iraq, said Jeff Garon, the company's director of marketing.
Olsen was awarded seven medals while serving in the U.S. Marine Corps, which he left as a lance corporal in November 2009 after serving for four years. One of them was the Navy-Marine Corps Achievement Medal.

\

Source: http://www.msn.com/


Quoting 
I wonder if this guy was even a vet. He didn’t even duck when the first shot was fired. Probably a homeless guy dressed up as a vet. Either that or he was higher than the profits of the banks they are protesting.

This tells you something about the person who posted it. Something that is not good, and not as easy to recover from as broken bones.

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  #175 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Quoting 
Regarding Scott Olsen, the man injured at the Occupy Oakland protest, I am sorry that he and anyone else got injured during that protest. I have a lot of respect for the Marines but apparently this guy didn't:

See: Iraq War Veteran Injured at OWS Oakland Founder of IHateTheMarineCorps.com | Verum Serum


Sorry, this seems to be extremely unlikely. SuperSleuth Karl Denninger has uncovered the following:

Smear Job From The Right? (Scott Olsen) in [Market-Ticker]

Quoting 
Ok, let's pick through it.

First, Scott is allegedly from Wisconsin, not Milan Illinois. Strike 1.

Second: Created on: 28-Jan-09. Where was Scott on 28 January 2009?

According to what I can ascertain from the public record he was in Iraq on deployment on that date. Strike 2? Maybe.

Now sure, he could have still created the domain I suppose. But where would have gotten the address, and is anything there? Let's look.

Oh oh.... now we got problems. Not only is there something there (look at the address in Street View) but it also pops up as an address for a company called "SRH Roofing". The owner is listed as one Shawn Hicks - no match. We'll reserve the strike for now.

But we got a couple of other problems. There are Google Cache entries within the last couple of days that validate that certain people have tampered with the Whois returns in their alleged "reporting".

Now that last little tidbit is very interesting..... But let's believe what we want to believe.

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 kbit 
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  #177 (permalink)
cedar
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Stephen Colbert went to OWS yesterday. The video is quite hilarious!

part II tonight.

Colbert Super PAC - Occupy Wall Street Co-Optportunity - Stephen On Location - The Colbert Report - 2011-31-10 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

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Retro
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In one word - Anarchists! There is no need for any redistribution of cash or debt - I believe in one tax bracket for all.

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cedar
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Two words: social justice


Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being.


No one is saying redistribute the wealth soviet style, just make it a level playing feild. The rich 1% should play by the same rules the 99% of us are asked to.

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 drago1 
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Let's face it. The current system is a farce. It is beyond hope for poor who have been conned into cheering for the rich. For the slowly awakening, non face book gazing, rest of America it is now or never to reclaim what has been stolen from them - hope for a better future for themselves and their children. Of course for some of these protesters it is about nihilism. Antipathetic. They will always be there no matter what the event . That should not diminish or distract from the greater common cause. Respect for Rule of Law. But pacifism and refusal to participate in the system are the only real tools to effect change . So Stop shopping. Put your money in a local bank or a safe in your house. Cancel you cable tv. Withdraw from the system. If anything buy local and not big box. Soldiers are sacrificing their lives abroad. They are overly represented among the homeless once they return. Support the troops . Respect the law. Be a peaceful non shopping army of one. Everything else will be villified by the media and special interest groups that maintain the false divides in the populace. Peace. Out.

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  #181 (permalink)
 forrestang 
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Retro View Post
In one word - Anarchists! There is no need for any redistribution of cash or debt - I believe in one tax bracket for all.

But you realize, that the tax system is there to allow politicians the ability to garner votes by promising everyone something, both rich AND poor.

If there was simply one tax bracket, FOR EVERYONE that earns an income, that ability to shuffle money to and from people would no longer exist. Politicians would in essence, be giving up a large portion of their power. This will always be a tough thing for a politician to do.

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 josh 
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drago1 View Post
So Stop shopping. Put your money in a local bank or a safe in your house. Cancel you cable tv. Withdraw from the system. If anything buy local and not big box.

I'll bet that you are typing this on a computer you bought at a national chain, with money from your credit or debit card, using internet from your cable or DSL provider. Am I right? How about this -- why don't you withdraw yourself from "the system" and see how well you can do in "Moronerica" all by your lonesome, or pull a few hippies in with you to keep you company and you can all smoke dope and talk about "the man." How can a trader even think garbage like this? If you trade, you're part of "the system," bro. A better idea--wear a t-shirt that says "I'm a stock trader" and walk around in the OWS camp and see how it works out for you.

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  #183 (permalink)
 josh 
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cedar View Post
Two words: social justice

What would a world where social justice is implemented look like to you, in a nutshell?

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 forrestang 
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josh View Post
What would a world where social justice is implemented look like to you, in a nutshell?

Good question. Since the term "Social Justice" inherently relies upon the whims of whoever is in power.

I'd like to have a picture painted for me of what the implementation of social justice would look like.

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 drago1 
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josh View Post
I'll bet that you are typing this on a computer you bought at a national chain, with money from your credit or debit card, using internet from your cable or DSL provider. Am I right? How about this -- why don't you withdraw yourself from "the system" and see how well you can do in "Moronerica" all by your lonesome, or pull a few hippies in with you to keep you company and you can all smoke dope and talk about "the man." How can a trader even think garbage like this? If you trade, you're part of "the system," bro. A better idea--wear a t-shirt that says "I'm a stock trader" and walk around in the OWS camp and see how it works out for you.


Well Josh you certainly missed my point. But thanks for noticing I am on the internet cause I wondered where I was being all absorbed smoking pot and stuff. I digress. We agree perhaps many illegal acts were committed by banks with aid of politicians and were not dealt with through the justice system? Perhaps we agree that peaceful protest is preferable to violent protest? Regardless of the issue. That we hope for a future with more opportunity for the next generation and not a legacy of debt? That without of rule of law we have no hope . Of course I exist in the system!! My point is that I have no other power of protest than to withdraw even if it is a pain in the ass. Love to read your solutions versus lobbing insults. The bro part was really uncalled for. But perhaps we can go together to OWS and wear t shirts that read I am stock trader. Except mine will have to read "I am futures trader whose account is in limbo because MF Global dipped into customer accounts to cover their losses on their own trades."

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  #186 (permalink)
 josh 
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drago1 View Post
My point is that I have no other power of protest than to withdraw even if it is a pain in the ass. Love to read your solutions versus lobbing insults. The bro part was really uncalled for.

Solution to what? That's the question and the fundamental issue. You, by your comments, think that the problem is "rich people." That's where our viewpoints diverge.

I think the problem lies with those in power, who set the laws of the land, and who appoint those who judge and interpret the laws of the land. I believe the solution is to go to the ballot box and vote for those who will bring about the type of ideals you desire.

You believe the problem lies with those who have money, regardless of how they have earned it. You believe the solution is to create a system where those people are not allowed to have that much money. Isn't that right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I believe that the real problem is those in power who play to those poor who are ignorant of their own self-worth, and who tell them how poor they are, and how much at a disadvantage they are to the "evil rich," and who promise to take care of them if only they put them in power. These politicians care nothing about the poor. If they cared for them, they would give them a vision of what they could become if they stopped blaming others for their poor state, worked hard, and expected more from themselves. Am I saying all poor people are lazy? Of course not. But when poor people blame their own problems on others, particularly those who have money, it's a glaring sign that their focus is in the wrong place if they are to be successful. Some politicians play to this tendency of humans to blame others for their own circumstances and problems, and as a result we get people who want to bring down others who have done what it takes to be successful, rather than focusing on their own great potential.

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 drago1 
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Josh, it is really disengenuous or naive to suggest that rich people - ALL people - do not lobby on their own behalf. That is reality. We all wish we could do it. I have nothing against people having enormous wealth. I really could not care less either way.

I will never sit at the dinner table with Warren Buffet, Jaime Dimon or Timothy Geithner. My one vote will never stack up against that kind of connection to influence. It is reality. If they play by the rules that you and I have to then God love em and good luck to them all. If they don't - then its off to the tower for em like the rest of us.

Democracy is a great idea but it really is a grand illusion. The prophet of the neo conservatives in America is writer Leo Strauss. He reiterated and embraced the platonic idea of myth of nation and the noble lie. The masses he believed are too stupid to make decisions so a fear of a threatening other is coalescing mechanism. These are his words not mine. This protocol has been a model for centuries.

Crony Capitalism was largely responsible for the disonance that ultimately led to the civil war. Remember the infamous Tarrif of Abominations that forced the south to buy machinery from the north versus less expensively from Britain. States rights and free markets versus top down henry clay style authority. Jefferson versus Hamilton. This tune has been playing along time and it is humming again across the county. You have to love it I think. And no - I am resoundingly not a communist. All communist governments were facist anways.

There is a funny story I heard about the discussions between the Americans and Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Tension was so high that the moderator suggested each side tell a joke. The USSR rep began: In capitalist system man exploits man, in the Soviet system it is the exact opposite. Aint it the truth.

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 drago1 
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I am an idealist in one sense though. I am probably much older than you so please indulge me for a second.
I am Canadian and my father worked in the US as we lived on a border city. To me , made in America on a label was the most prestigious sign of quaility and status. Made in Japan was metaphor for junk.
We have a culture today that has little respect for quality , only price . Everything is disposable. I don't have a clue how we turn that one around.

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 Tarkus11 
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drago1 View Post
I am an idealist in one sense though. I am probably much older than you so please indulge me for a second.
I am Canadian and my father worked in the US as we lived on a border city. To me , made in America on a label was the most prestigious sign of quaility and status. Made in Japan was metaphor for junk.
We have a culture today that has little respect for quality , only price . Everything is disposable. I don't have a clue how we turn that one around.

Everybody wants a simple answer when there is none. But it doesn't help that the media doesn't discuss the problems honestly or simply panders to the "guest" they have on their show.

For instance, the media would use the phrase "the subprime crises", when in reality it was "the derivatives of the subprime loans crises". U.S. GDP was ~$13 trillion in 2008. How much was all the subprime loans put together? No where near that amount. So what crashed the U.S. AND the world economy put together? The derivatives created from the loans. Who created the derivatives and why so much of it? See any in the media ask that question? No.

After that it spins off into an argument that we are overpaying teachers. Whatever....

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 Zondor 
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Quoting 
BL: Well, there were kids who were living in the camp, so they were further in. Make no doubt about it, this was a military type operation, the way they moved in. It harkened back to old footage I had seen of Nazi Germany where you know you had the Nazis, the SS going in and picking up innocent people. It had that tenor. And even the helicopters, and the lights, and the loud speaker, all those were all intended to create panic and terror for the people inside, and it was totally uncalled for.

DB: And how were the cops dressed and say a little bit more about how they were acting.

BL: It was something like out of a Star Wars movie except instead of being in white they were all in black. You know they were all in riot gear, you know with the visors, they looked like automatons, that they just moved in, in a line.


What the Cops Really Did in Oakland Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

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 furytrader 
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Yes, let's talk about Oakland, California:

BREAKING: #OccupyOakland Vandalizes Whole Foods Store, Smashes Bank of America Windows, Activists Claim One Killed By Car UPDATE: False Alarm - Big Government

You go girl!

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 Zondor 
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This is what it was intended to do.


Quoting 
About 20.5 million Americans, or 6.7 percent of the U.S. population, make up the poorest poor, defined as those at 50 percent or less of the official poverty level. Those living in deep poverty represent nearly half of the 46.2 million people scraping by below the poverty line. In 2010, the poorest poor meant an income of $5,570 or less for an individual and $11,157 for a family of four.
Red Tape: Recession threatens generation of young adults
That 6.7 percent share is the highest in the 35 years that the Census Bureau has maintained such records, surpassing previous highs in 2009 and 1993 of just over 6 percent.


Poorest of the poor: Now 1 in 15 Americans - US news - Life - msnbc.com


Quoting 
Yes, Rich Class has been fighting a 30-year war to rule America

They’re fighting you, winning big-time, and you’re the loser. It’s just one generation since conservatives put Reagan in office: In those three short decades the income and wealth of the top 1% has tripled while the income of the bottom 99% of all Americans has stagnated or dropped.

Yes, they are at war with you, fighting to gain absolute power over America … and they will never stop their brutal attacks.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-class-beating-99-to-a-pulp-2011-11-01


Quoting 
Rich Class fighting to turn America back into Reagan’s ol’ Wild West

The list goes on: The Rich Class wants to time-travel America back to a lawless Old Wild West, back to a free-market Reaganomics anarchy where the top 1% trickle down leftovers to the 99% using this kind of self-destructive programs:

Privatize: Turn Social Security over to Wall Street bankers to run Main Street’s retirements into the dirt (worse than they did in 2008), a $20 trillion blunder that’s guaranteed to trigger total bankruptcy of the America economy.

Vouchers: Turn our educational and health-care systems into a voucher system so that private companies owned by the Rich Class can siphon off even bigger profits from every little trickle-down bone the wealthy toss to parents, the sick and elderly.

Regulations: They’ll also turn over environmental, drugs, food, banking and all other regulatory agencies back to be controlled by the very company executives they’re supposed to be regulating, just like Bush and Cheney did for eight years.

Tax-Free: Extend Bush tax cuts to Rich Class, eliminate estate taxes and give Corporate America another tax–free holiday to return huge foreign profits so they can deposit those profits direct into pockets of the Rich Class.


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 drago1 
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Everybody has their own reality tunnel. This OWS group is not homogenous. It represents alot of people frustrated for a million different reasons. Some of them are thugs and idiots and many are just fed up. Voting clearly is akin to pissing into the wind.

Are you are happy with the status quo? - and do you have faith in the system? IF so perhaps you can advance me the money that MF Global has confiscated from my account. I will not be smashing any windows and I will pay you back as soon as the regulators find it. I will even pay a bonus if any goes to jail. Experience however is that regulators and lawmakers never seem to do their job. This is the same crap that happened in 2008.

I am not an anarchist, just a guy trying to make a living who has no power. If I make a bad trade my money is gone - fair. If large banks and brokers make bad trades my money is gone too. So please remind me of the upside of the current paradigm. And please take the same high ground that you rightly hold the OWS group to. And below more of the same.

Final Tally - Outgoing Freddie CEO Gets $4 Million Bonus To Receive $21 Billion In Bailouts After Massive Q3 Loss

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 11/03/2011 - 13:09 Freddie Mac

When last week we reported about the scandal of outgoing Freddie Mac CEO Ed Haldeman receiving at least $3.9 million as a reward for his two year tenure at the top of the insolvent and nationalized housing entity, we said: "As the chart below demonstrates, the total "draws" received under Haldeman's tenure amounts to $14.5 billion. This excludes the Q3 number which will be made clear next week. Something tells us with this abrupt departure, the number may be higher to quite higher than expected." As usual: when in doubt, be cynical, and be skeptical, and you will be right. Today, Freddie just reported that its Q3 draw, or required quarterly bailout amount from the Treasury, was $6 billion: the highest since Q1 2010, as a result of a massive loss of $4.4 billion. This means that during his tenure which ended just after the completin of Q3, Freddie has been "rewarded" with $20.5 billion in taxpayer capital merely to keep the zombie entity in operation! And for this, Ed gets $4 milliom. And this is why people in America are very, very pissed.

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 kbit 
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Ran across this.....
>

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 furytrader 
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Quoting 
Are you are happy with the status quo? - and do you have faith in the system? IF so perhaps you can advance me the money that MF Global has confiscated from my account. I will not be smashing any windows and I will pay you back as soon as the regulators find it. I will even pay a bonus if any goes to jail. Experience however is that regulators and lawmakers never seem to do their job. This is the same crap that happened in 2008.

The "status quo" as you refer to it is that if MF Global commingled investor funds with their own, they have broken the law and they will be punished. Since the FBI is looking into this case now, it could very well end up with executives going to jail. If they did not do this commingling, the law hasn't been broken and they will not be punished.

What part of that is not clear to you?

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 furytrader 
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The funny thing about reading the heated scribblings of Zondor, drago1, and others who seem to support the Occupy Wall Street crowd is this:

The people who are participating in OWS, the ones in Zucotti Park and on the corner of Jackson and LaSalle in Chicago (among other places) think that because you're a stock or futures trader, that you're a parasite - someone who leaches off of society and adds no real "value" (as they define it) - and that your day-to-day speculations in the financial markets create an atmosphere of "casino capitalism" that destabilize the economy and draw productive resources away from where it could serve the "greater good". As traders, you are the enemy to them. You are active participants in a financial system that is, at its core, corrupt and oppressive.

I realize that since you don't live in a major financial center, you don't see these protests first hand, but I pass by them every day on my way to the office. When they rally against "corporate greed," they are rallying against all greed - including the greed that drives you to take risk when you trade. You are the problem to them - and if you truly supported what they stood for, you would not be trading at all right now. You'd be working to bring social justice and equality to the world, as they define it and as they deem appropriate.

The fact that you spend your time chasing ticks while professing support for these protestors either demonstrates a profound ignorance on your part about what OWS is all about, or a breath-taking level of hypocrisy.

Which is it?

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 drago1 
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I am not trying to win an argument here. I really hope you are right that there will be prosecutions if there is proven wrongdoing such as comingling of funds. This does seem to be the case as the story develops - my funds in Canada are held captive because of MF Global tapping into client funds. I can get no answers from them except confirming that the US side of the firm screwed with client funds for their own trades..

There is no precedent for belieiving prosecutions will happen based on all the fraud that took place in the last three years. We had No prosecutions. No charges. But large bonuses with bailout dollars . So what should change now? Rule of law does not seem to matter anymore. What is there to understand? Of course people are pissed. We have reached the tipping point and people are just starting to wake up. The only reason we don't have massive riots is that 45 million are pacified with food stamps or extended unemployment benefits. I respect the right of free speech and the right to protest even if I find it repugnant. I do not endorse vandalism or course. We have protests here as well - and yes there are knuckleheads there. If they hate me too because I speculate I really could not care less. They do not have money . They are not my problem. The pricks at MF Global and the bought off castrati in government are.


.

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 furytrader 
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Quoting 
"There is no precedent for belieiving prosecutions will happen based on all the fraud that took place in the last three years. We had No prosecutions. No charges. But large bonuses with bailout dollars . So what should change now?"

So the fact that Goldman Sachs had to pay a fine of $500 million dollars for ONE CDO deal means that no prosecutions will happen? The fact that CITI paid over $250 million for ONE CDO deal means that "Wall Street is getting away with it?" Really?

The inconvenient thing about prosecuting white collar crime, as with prosecuting any crime, is that you actually have to PROVE that a crime occurred in a court of law using things like evidence. You know, with a judge and lawyers and a jury. Just because Michael Moore or Naomi Klein or Elizabeth Warren or Noam Chomsky or the idiots in Occupy Wall Street say that a crime happened doesn't mean jack. Also, simply because people lost money doesn't necessarily mean that a crime happened. You actually have to prove that specific laws were broken.

It takes time, but if there are laws that have been broken, I believe that justice will be done. But it will take time - perhaps a long time, unfortunately.

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  #199 (permalink)
 Zondor 
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Quoting 
It takes time, but if there are laws that have been broken, I believe that justice will be done. But it will take time - perhaps a long time, unfortunately.

Btw FuryTrader, do you really think futures traders like you and ME are part of the tiny sliver of the upper hundredths of the top 1% who have been pulling all the strings that led to our economic collapse? That OWS is going to come after us because WE are parasites? As a trader, why do you think you would be held responsible for revolving door corruption, and systemic control fraud in the TBTF banks? Why should OWS have anything against you/me? WE don't matter. We are part of the 99%, or more accurately, the 99.99%.

And regarding your quote above.. Oh, really now? Enforcement of the laws is something that only applies to the little people, like YOU. You know, the ones who pay taxes. And for YOU, those laws are a bit on the harsh side, as we continue our slide towards a police state for the 99% and an anything goes get out of jail free situation for the kleptocrats.

I think you and I have some common ground....

According to William Black, there were 10,000 criminal referrals and over 1,000 convictions of company principals related to the accounting frauds that led to the S and L fiasco. The current disaster is 70 times larger in magnitude, but there have been ZERO criminal referrals regarding the systematic accounting frauds that led to it. Oh well, it's only been six years since the FBI warned the BUSH ADMINISTRATION of widespread fraud in mortgage lending. Maybe in six more years, or in sixty more years, they will get around to charging someone.

The Bush and Obama administrations INTENTIONALLY did and are doing nothing so that the biggest crooks in the history of the United States will be saved by Statutes of Limitations. They made examples out of Madoff and Raj, but those guys are pikers compared to Mozilo, Fuld, Cassano, Corzine, H. Paulson, Pitt, Greenspan, Clinton, Blankfein, Gramm..... etc As far as I am concerned Obama should be impeached regarding his malfeasance in this matter and Holder should be investigated and indicted. The level of overt corruption in this administration is appalling. And the GOP Clowns lurking in the sidelines would by all indications be worse, with the possible exception of Ron Paul. THE SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING. Now, there is this thing called the Declaration of Independence that talks 'bout what needs to be done in a situation like that.... Something about Redress of Grievances or whatever

As Karl Denninger says, it's time to STOP THE LOOTING AND START PROSECUTING. PAST TIME.

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 zt379 
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