I guess more specifically, is this an attack on the first amendment or simply upholding separation of church and state?
To prohibit an individual from saying certain words seems like the first, but then the question is whether it is allowed at a public (state funded) event? The school is not forcing or endorsing the words or a prayer in anyway, it is up to the students on whether they want to say those words.
Hmm..
As consistently profitable traders.. "We get paid to wait, and we wait to get paid."
And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
Ezikiel 25:17
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
The issue is state sponsorship. Private schools are a different ball of wax.
The first amendment prohibits government from establishing a religion, and the courts have interpreted that language over the years to prevent this kind of situation, where a prayer is placed on the "official agenda" of a state institution that's supposed to be religion-neutral. But it still happens all the time anyway. The question is whether anyone in a given situation will be so bothered about it that they sue.
Most folks I talk to who are in favor of prayer in public functions or in schools ... generally don't support the same issue if the religion is different from the one they subscribe to...
I was asking if you would support all religions to hold services in government facilities, public schools and public events.
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
The following 2 users say Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
If everyone had your view.. it would not be an issue... however, at a Texas High School... a Muslim Student group asked if they could say their prayers ... the parents (Non Muslim) went ballistic...
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
The following 2 users say Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
I think this is a problem with Christianity in general. They always try to drill the idea it is either you believe in them or you go to hell. There is no other choice. You are either with them or against them. I used to go to church / Sunday school, and that basically sum up what they teach every time I was there.
The following user says Thank You to cw30000 for this post:
The thing I never understand about these prayer controversies is why people feel the need to pray before a captive audience in the first place.
If you want to pray, just sit there in your seat and pray. Why the need to put it on the official agenda?
The only motive I can imagine for why a religious group would feel the need to put a prayer on the program is that they want other people to see them praying. Prayer as social status. Kind of creeps me out.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:5-6
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
The following user says Thank You to rtrade for this post:
I take it ya never played high school football in Texas... you ALWAYS have prayer before the game... Please dear Lord ... help us crucify them devils from Cut and Shoot for our Homecoming Game... Amen....
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
The following user says Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
Texas and Virginia have a lot in common in this regard. Capital punishment too. I did some death penalty appellate work one summer and Virginia is #2 to your great state in the number of executions.
Lets look at what the term "public"means. I think it means funded from public sources....ie...taxpayers. I think taxpayers include the parents of the kids that want to pray. What right does the "public" institution have to tell them what they can and cannot say assuming it is not slanderous or maligns someone else? This should include Muslims as well as the good Christians in Texas praying about killing the other team on the gridiron. Freedom of religion is freedom of religion. I am not Muslim but I will defend their right to pray in this country any where they want to. I've been in countries where praying to anything other than the official God will result in death. In fact, I know people who have laid down their lives for just such an offense.
We are not perfect here by any means, buts it a far sight better than that.
Best case, the government for which we pay good money to operate should just stay the heck out of stuff like this.
I think I will have a
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
The following user says Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:
Unfortunately there are folks who lack your viewpoint... I can only imagine the scene around here if word got out that $0.01 of taxpayer money was spent on anything pertaining to any religion not part of the accepted local norms....
it would be worse than when word got out that Disney World had "Gay Day" and people who never planned to go to Disney World decided to boycott it...
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
The following 2 users say Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
As with all complex social issues, these things can take on a different color depending on what perspective you take.
On the one hand, the decision to schedule a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony could be viewed as an act of the taxpayers (i.e., "we the people") who are simply exercising their right to free expression of religion. In which case, back off, government!
From a slightly different perspective, the decision to schedule a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony could be viewed as an act of a UT official (i.e., "government bureaucrat") who is stipulating which religion is granted favored status so as to be represented before the captive audience of graduation attendees. In which case, what the heck are you doing trying to choose between religions, government?
Overall I think these public prayers are mostly harmless (although such public declarations of religion do come off as self-serving to me in an Emperor-Has-No-Clothes kind of way), but there is an element of society that is really disturbed by the idea of the government being involved with religion at all. They're the ones who sue.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
No rTrade, there are LOTS of gods, and every last one of them is the One and Only TRUE GOD. And throughout history, it is written that anyone who disagrees with that MUST DIE! And THE FAITHFUL realized they needed to make that happen, because for some strange reason, none of these GODS seems to be able to do it! (How is that for "Terrorism"?)
Now, back to conversing with my imaginary supernatural friends, who watch me every minute of every day and tablulate all my sins in the same kind of SQL Server database that Ninajtader uses! That's why upgrading from 6.5 to 7 was SUCH A BIG DEAL!
The kind of" thinking" that craves belief in occult supernatural beings does not seem to me like the logical pragmatism that is necessary for trading success, but I could be wrong! How is your faith based trading coming along?
But seriously, if we fail to acknowledge the sovereignty of the imaginary beings over every aspect of our lives, we are eternally condemned! Sounds like a NO WIN situation!
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
How about Global Klepto-Corporatist Bankster Hell? Best experienced as a citizen of a place like Haiti, Congo, Fukushima Prefecture, or most working class neighborhoods right here in the USA!
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
I think what they should do is bring a mat, bow on the floor and point towards Mecca. Bring a little itunes of some Mosque 'Prayer' and see how they feel. I have a feeling that it would not be 'acceptable', nor 'free speech' at that point.
Now, why is that... If you don't bring a mat or refuse to get on the floor, that is fine, but will you really feel ok?
The following user says Thank You to bluemele for this post:
There seems to be a conflict here between the right to free speech and the principle of separation of church and state. I think both sides of the issue are correct when they point out the problems caused by either allowing or banning prayer in compulsory, government run education.
Rather than prohibiting public prayer in schools (violating the 4th amendment) or allowing prayer in state-sponsored compulsory schools (which violates people's right not to have a religion pushed on them by the state) I'd like to suggest a different solution: get the State out of the business of 'educating' our children. Let parents send their children to the school of their choice where they feel the issue is handled in keeping with their own morals. Then everyone can be happy. (except, of course, those who want to force their viewpoint onto the children of others.)
The following 2 users say Thank You to GoldStandard for this post:
Sure, how does one pay for this? Especially when they make 20K per year? Then it would be a never ending loop of those who have money get the education and those that don't don't...
I agree with you besides that issue.
Anything public should not have 'prayer' or 'god' unless they want to set up some time for silence or whatever so people can do what they want, but then the Mosque prayer wouldn't probably be quiet enough for some.
It is either all or none. None seems more appropriate for fairness and the greater good.
PLUS, I know of no 'learning' facilities that need no government or community support.
The following user says Thank You to bluemele for this post:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
The following 2 users say Thank You to rtrade for this post:
Taking on the entire subject of how to replace public education is a big topic, probably too big for this thread. Let me just suggest that our current method of government run schools is not the only way to do things, and arguably is not even a very good way of doing things. We've only had public education in the US for about one hundred years. Back in 1776 the US had a literacy rate of 95%. Source . Now, after 100 years or so of public education, only about 15% of the population is classified as having 'full literacy' Source . The government sucks at educating children, just like it sucks at pretty much everything else it does. (It's good at spending other people's money, though). Just because people are so used to the current system that they can't imagine alternative ways of doing things, doesn't mean there aren't any.
The following user says Thank You to GoldStandard for this post:
Yeah, let's get rid of public education. It doesn't work in any of the other industrialized countries, does it? Especially the majority of them where the results run circles around the pathetic results we get here!
Then we can abdicate the responsibility for education to people who CLAIM (don't you think they really know better?) that their lives are controlled by supernatural beings, and produce a nation of Sarah Palins. That approach is giving pretty good results in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
The problems with the Educational Industrial Complex have the same root causes as those of the Medical Industrial Complex (including the "War on cancer"), the Drug/Banking/Government/Prison complex, and the Military Industrial Complex. All of these corrupt amalgamations are optimized for maximum return to their controlling elites, not to serve what people ASSUME are their real purpose. They are not accountable to those we like to think they are SUPPOSED to serve.
The only bright spot is that all of these complexes depend on a Bubble-icious economy that is coming apart at the seams. They eventually will collapse of their own weight. But paraphrasing Keynes, things that are irrational will often survive a lot longer than YOU.
One might argue that a grounding in religious traditions would give leaders a motivation to act in an ethical manner. However the ascendancy of widespread top to bottom corruption throughout all the powerful institutions of this country coincides with ever increasing levels of religiosity, so there goes that argument out the window.
Now, where does it say in here what MY goals are, again? (post #40)
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
If you think that seeing your own goals enforced on the rest of society is more important than allowing others the freedom to choose how their children should be educated then you would of course support compulsory government-run education. The problem for you is that it won't just be your goals that get enforced. Those Palin-loving idiots will also get a say over how your own children are educated. Wouldn't you rather just have free choice to see your own children educated how you see fit? In order to get this free choice for yourself you have to be willing to give it to others as well.
For the record I agree that Palin is an idiot and her supporters are seriously lacking in good judgement.
Completely agree. This is why I think public education is so dangerous. It has been corrupted just like the Medical, Drug, Banking, Prison, and Military-Industrial Complexes (all areas with heavy government involvement). Now we have the Government-Education Complex.
The following user says Thank You to GoldStandard for this post:
I am always amused ....not.....how the most open minded, the most sophisticated, the most educated, are usually the ones that resort to calling those they disagree with names and resort almost immediately to personal attacks. They appear to refuse to have an honest discussion with those they consider their intellectual inferior. The only reason I can come up with is this:
They are afraid the intellectually inferior might actually make some sense along the way and they will be compelled to abandon long held beliefs about things they insist that only they have answers for.
For instance, disagree with Sarah Palin all you want. (By the way, I am one of those idiots that like her....not every thing of course, but I'd choose her over almost everyone out there. I guess that makes me an idiot too and invalidates everything else I have to say....right? After all an idiot about a politician is obviously an idiot about everything else as well....at least thats what we are supposed to believe) But an honest and respectful person would simply acknowledge that Sarah's belief system is different than theirs and respect it. But no, she's an an idiot for no other reason than she thinks something different than the person doing the name calling. Talk about closed mindedness and intellectual dishonesty.
Now lets use me for an example. I think Al Gore is a self serving, pandering hypocrite. Oops, I think I called him a name...oh maybe not, I just described some actions and behaviors. And aren't we all self serving and pandering to some degree? By the way, almost any politician including Sarah Palin could probably at some level be placed in this category. However, Al Gore is certainly not an idiot. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is getting rich off his pandering. I also disagree with virtually all his hypothesis regarding global warming. Still he is not an idiot. He just believes something different than I do. By the way, this is the point where the name calling begins. Those that think I have no idea what I am talking about call me an idiot for not believing in global warming instead of challenging me with facts, they just call me an idiot for not believing the so called experts. This is why I who am a believer in God refuse to call the unbeliever stupid, idiot or some other equally derogatory names. I choose to believe but respect those that do not. Would that I and others like me got this same level of respect from the unbeliever.
Call me stupid if you want but I was around when it was global cooling. That did not happen so then it becomes global warming. No facts existed to support this and now instead of warming or cooling, its called climate change to avoid those embarrassing facts that support a constant warming and cooling cycle that works regardless of what the "experts" say. For those that insist I trust them, that sounds suspiciously like faith.....oops.....I forgot, faith is out of bounds......unless I am somehow forced to worship at the "irrefutable" altar of climate change.....by the way, I have my own reasons why this is such a volatile topic when directed from the climate change believers toward the climate change unbelievers but that is a topic for another day!
I don't care if you believe in climate change, just don't force me to or call me an idiot if I don't. Now that was simple....by the way, I do believe in climate change, the kind that happens naturally over hundreds of years with or without man's interference.
This is fun but will probably get me banned from the forum or at the very least, no one will read my posts anymore.....oh well, its still fun!
One last thing, why is it that the opened minded, sophisticated and well educated are allowed to call those of us who believe in God, don't believe in climate change and think the government really should stay the heck out of our lives all manner of derogatory names but if we reciprocate, we are flamed for engaging in hate mongering? Could someone answer me this?
I am willing to bet not a single person will hit the thanks button or post any kind of statement that even hints at some sort of agreement with me on even a single point in this post. Political correctness strikes again.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
The following 3 users say Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:
I agree with most of what you said. I think climate change is a hoax. I just think Palin is a fake, a statist, a warmonger, and a tool of the bankers, not a freedom lover or a libertarian of any kind. I think she just latched on to the Tea Party because it was gaining momentum and doesn't actually understand what it is about.
The following user says Thank You to GoldStandard for this post:
Yes, these are all tough subjects and doubtful we will convince anyone to have a different flavor or opinion.
I have to ask though about facts in that, when were humans on this earth in such a large capacity that had such high CO2 levels? Or is the earth 6,000 years old or whichever belief?
Did Dinosaurs exist, if so, what caused their extinction?
Are the polar caps melting?
Do you believe consuming more oil is for the better of our ecology? Burning or cutting down the rainforests? Killing animals for sake of hunting and 'the game'?
I grew up in the bible belt and had religion shoved down my throat from the beginning. After I lost several of my family members to distinct tragedies, I started to challenge those beliefs and a very young age. Then, I always have and still do feel uncomfortable around religious persons and groups. I have found through my life whether it be my rental units, my business dealings that the people who flock to religion tend to be the most corruptable or the weakest. The people who will sell you anything or do anything to you regardless of the outcome because the LORD says you are a good person and you are showing them the light.
Religion is good, the sheep must follow something, otherwise human beings are way too weak and I believe we would have too much strife and uncertainty. The challenge though is when two major 'religions' collide which has happened for a thousand years.
I have read books on religion, oil, global warming and politics and the interesting thing is what shaped my beliefs and why do I believe this over something else is 'right'? Is it my DNA, 'the devil', chaotic..?
The following 3 users say Thank You to bluemele for this post:
I think that is exactly backwards. The money that causes the corruption is private money. In a nutshell political apointee government regulators are corrupt because everything they do is with an eye towards landing a plum job in the regulated industry after they leave. The Education complex is a little different than the others and a bit unusual in that the teachers' unions, rather than Corporations, are such big players. But there is plenty of grease from the Banksters (student loans!) and players like for profit colleges. Congress is corrupt because of the campaign contribution shakedown racket. In the exact words of Senator Durbin, "THE BANKS OWN THIS PLACE."
Try telling anyone in Singapore or Finland that public education is no good and see what kind of a reaction you get. In a country with a fundamentally and deeply corrupted Kleptocratic system, privatized education would be just as bad or worse as what we have now. People from Europe and Asia who move here can't understand how public schools can be so bad. Of course the same can be said for our sick care system, etc etc etc.
I think that is exactly backwards. The money that causes the corruption is private money. In a nutshell political apointee government regulators are corrupt because everything they do is with an eye towards landing a plum job in the regulated industry after they leave. The Education complex is a little different than the others and a bit unusual in that the teachers' unions, rather than Corporations, are such big players. But there is plenty of grease from the Banksters (student loans!) and players like for profit colleges. Congress is corrupt because of the campaign contribution shakedown racket. In the exact words of Senator Durbin, "THE BANKS OWN THIS PLACE."
Try telling anyone in Singapore or Finland that their public education is no good and see what kind of a reaction you get. In a country with a fundamentally and deeply corrupted Kleptocratic system, privatized education would be just as bad or worse than what we have now. People from Europe and Asia who move here can't understand how public schools can be so bad. Of course the same can be said for our sick care system, etc etc etc.
Disclosure: My son is enrolling in the Stanford University online HS next year. The public schools here are in freefall.
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
No, I figured no one would thank something they found disagreeable. I was wrong. I presume Zondor disagrees but clicked the button more than likely because he at least appreciates an opposing viewpoint or at least had a good laugh. Either way, he clicked.
I'm far to sensible to need a martyrs persecution complex to make me feel worthwhile. And in my religious tradition, there are none that are righteous, only forgiven and persecution is not fun for anyone except maybe the ones doing the persecution.
And I'm ok with people sighing, rolling their eyes and shaking their heads and probably calling me an idiot under their breath. My wife does that at least once a day. I have thick skin.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
The following 3 users say Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:
2. I believe in a separation of Church and State and Religion and Science . Noah and the dinosaurs did NOT take a boat ride together.
3. Home Schooling vs Public Schooling vs Private Schooling; The only things that makes a difference in schools are;
(1) The quality of the teacher ... not the facilities not the amount of money thrown at it and not the standardized tests
.
(2) The involvement of the parents. When parents get personally involved in a school, the quality of education improves
4. Are these people asking for Less Gov'ment ?
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
The following 4 users say Thank You to ThatManFromTexas for this post:
Ok... a Judge ruled they could have prayer. The class Valedictorian said she was going to say a prayer before she gave her speech and everyone could do what they felt comfortable doing.
Then she said a prayer, gave her speech and life went on... film on CNN
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
But they left out the Youtube Video of Sarah competing for Miss Alaska in the bathing suit competition ... now that my friend was superb election reporting ...
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
I don't know what you see in them ... I have met hundreds of Honest women... I know they were because every one of them said , "Honestly... not if you were the last man on earth ...."
You just have to feel something for a woman that; baits her own hook ... fires expert on the gun range ... will go out and kill something and drag it home, clean and cook it for ya...
Besides... a woman that lives in a place where the nights are 6 months long... has had plenty of time to practice at the things that are really important...
I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.
My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
#3: Texas. Wow. Where do you start with Texas? The public high school graduation ceremony that was like a revival meeting? The transit company that changed their policies and stopped accepting any bus ads for any religious organizations... just so they wouldn't have to take ads from atheists? The governor who responded to economic troubles, natural disasters, and terrorism by initiating a state day of prayer, and has exhorted Texans to "call on Jesus"? The governor, again, who decreed three official state Days of Prayer for Rain? The public school where they distribute Bibles? The high school textbooks which teach that the Bible was a "foundational text" in the framing of the U.S., that the King James Bible "remains one of the... most-loved books in the history of the world," and that "the sun went black" when Jesus was crucified? The state Constitution that says, "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being"? The teachers that get fired, not for being atheists, but for being suspected of being atheists? The town where they get seriously hysterical about atheists playing "Jingle Bells" in a Christmas parade?
The following user says Thank You to Zondor for this post:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
As the world turns, I am surprised as 20 years ago I think it would be a different story and one with more arms up in the air.
