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Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony
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Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony

  #31 (permalink)
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no need to wait!

How about Global Klepto-Corporatist Bankster Hell? Best experienced as a citizen of a place like Haiti, Congo, Fukushima Prefecture, or most working class neighborhoods right here in the USA!

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  #32 (permalink)
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Zondor View Post
How about Global Klepto-Corporatist Bankster Hell? Best experienced as a citizen of a place like Haiti, Congo, or most "working class" neighborhoods right here in the USA!

Yes.....any of those will do.........besides......they are all alot closer than the "Lake of Fire."

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worldwary View Post
As with all complex social issues, these things can take on a different color depending on what perspective you take.

On the one hand, the decision to schedule a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony could be viewed as an act of the taxpayers (i.e., "we the people") who are simply exercising their right to free expression of religion. In which case, back off, government!

From a slightly different perspective, the decision to schedule a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony could be viewed as an act of a UT official (i.e., "government bureaucrat") who is stipulating which religion is granted favored status so as to be represented before the captive audience of graduation attendees. In which case, what the heck are you doing trying to choose between religions, government?

Overall I think these public prayers are mostly harmless (although such public declarations of religion do come off as self-serving to me in an Emperor-Has-No-Clothes kind of way), but there is an element of society that is really disturbed by the idea of the government being involved with religion at all. They're the ones who sue.

I think what they should do is bring a mat, bow on the floor and point towards Mecca. Bring a little itunes of some Mosque 'Prayer' and see how they feel. I have a feeling that it would not be 'acceptable', nor 'free speech' at that point.

Now, why is that... If you don't bring a mat or refuse to get on the floor, that is fine, but will you really feel ok?

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universal tolerance

How about if they bring e-meters and pray to Xenu?
Quoting 
“We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake.” -- Catherine Fahringer, Interview, San Antonio Express News, Portrait of an Atheist by Craig Phelon, March 24, 1991).


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There seems to be a conflict here between the right to free speech and the principle of separation of church and state. I think both sides of the issue are correct when they point out the problems caused by either allowing or banning prayer in compulsory, government run education.

Rather than prohibiting public prayer in schools (violating the 4th amendment) or allowing prayer in state-sponsored compulsory schools (which violates people's right not to have a religion pushed on them by the state) I'd like to suggest a different solution: get the State out of the business of 'educating' our children. Let parents send their children to the school of their choice where they feel the issue is handled in keeping with their own morals. Then everyone can be happy. (except, of course, those who want to force their viewpoint onto the children of others.)

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GoldStandard View Post
There seems to be a conflict here between the right to free speech and the principle of separation of church and state. I think both sides of the issue are correct when they point out the problems caused by either allowing or banning prayer in compulsory, government run education.

Rather than prohibiting public prayer in schools (violating the 4th amendment) or allowing prayer in state-sponsored compulsory schools (which violates people's right not to have a religion pushed on them by the state) I'd like to suggest a different solution: get the State out of the business of 'educating' our children. Let parents send their children to the school of their choice where they feel the issue is handled in keeping with their own morals. Then everyone can be happy. (except, of course, those who want to force their viewpoint onto the children of others.)

Sure, how does one pay for this? Especially when they make 20K per year? Then it would be a never ending loop of those who have money get the education and those that don't don't...

I agree with you besides that issue.

Anything public should not have 'prayer' or 'god' unless they want to set up some time for silence or whatever so people can do what they want, but then the Mosque prayer wouldn't probably be quiet enough for some.

It is either all or none. None seems more appropriate for fairness and the greater good.

PLUS, I know of no 'learning' facilities that need no government or community support.

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bluemele View Post
PLUS, I know of no 'learning' facilities that need no government...

Home Schooling

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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bluemele View Post
Sure, how does one pay for this? Especially when they make 20K per year? Then it would be a never ending loop of those who have money get the education and those that don't don't...

I agree with you besides that issue.

Anything public should not have 'prayer' or 'god' unless they want to set up some time for silence or whatever so people can do what they want, but then the Mosque prayer wouldn't probably be quiet enough for some.

It is either all or none. None seems more appropriate for fairness and the greater good.

PLUS, I know of no 'learning' facilities that need no government or community support.

Taking on the entire subject of how to replace public education is a big topic, probably too big for this thread. Let me just suggest that our current method of government run schools is not the only way to do things, and arguably is not even a very good way of doing things. We've only had public education in the US for about one hundred years. Back in 1776 the US had a literacy rate of 95%. Source . Now, after 100 years or so of public education, only about 15% of the population is classified as having 'full literacy' Source . The government sucks at educating children, just like it sucks at pretty much everything else it does. (It's good at spending other people's money, though). Just because people are so used to the current system that they can't imagine alternative ways of doing things, doesn't mean there aren't any.


Last edited by GoldStandard; June 4th, 2011 at 04:43 PM. Reason: grammar
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by all means, don't do anything rational

Yeah, let's get rid of public education. It doesn't work in any of the other industrialized countries, does it? Especially the majority of them where the results run circles around the pathetic results we get here!

Then we can abdicate the responsibility for education to people who CLAIM (don't you think they really know better?) that their lives are controlled by supernatural beings, and produce a nation of Sarah Palins. That approach is giving pretty good results in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

The problems with the Educational Industrial Complex have the same root causes as those of the Medical Industrial Complex (including the "War on cancer"), the Drug/Banking/Government/Prison complex, and the Military Industrial Complex. All of these corrupt amalgamations are optimized for maximum return to their controlling elites, not to serve what people ASSUME are their real purpose. They are not accountable to those we like to think they are SUPPOSED to serve.

The only bright spot is that all of these complexes depend on a Bubble-icious economy that is coming apart at the seams. They eventually will collapse of their own weight. But paraphrasing Keynes, things that are irrational will often survive a lot longer than YOU.

One might argue that a grounding in religious traditions would give leaders a motivation to act in an ethical manner. However the ascendancy of widespread top to bottom corruption throughout all the powerful institutions of this country coincides with ever increasing levels of religiosity, so there goes that argument out the window.

Now, where does it say in here what MY goals are, again? (post #40)


Last edited by Zondor; June 4th, 2011 at 05:20 PM.
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Zondor View Post
Yeah, let's get rid of public education. It doesn't work in any of the other industrialized countries, does it? Especially the majority of them where the results run circles around the pathetic results we get here!

Then we can abdicate the responsibility for education to people who CLAIM (don't you think they really know better?) that their lives are controlled by supernatural beings, and produce a nation of Sarah Palins. That approach is giving pretty good results in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

If you think that seeing your own goals enforced on the rest of society is more important than allowing others the freedom to choose how their children should be educated then you would of course support compulsory government-run education. The problem for you is that it won't just be your goals that get enforced. Those Palin-loving idiots will also get a say over how your own children are educated. Wouldn't you rather just have free choice to see your own children educated how you see fit? In order to get this free choice for yourself you have to be willing to give it to others as well.

For the record I agree that Palin is an idiot and her supporters are seriously lacking in good judgement.

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