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The Truth: NinjaTrader
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The Truth: NinjaTrader

  #681 (permalink)
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Thanks! Glad to see such an honest outspoken review on Ninja Trader. I'll take this into account.

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  #682 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Monpere, I have to disagree with you.

They invented the DOM.

How would you feel when you think and create something and then your competitor says: oh this is nice, let me program the same. That's not how Intellectual Copyright works in our Western world.

Copying everybody else ideas works in other countries but it's resulting in lack of innovation.

Last time we got something useful newly invented from China was 1500 years ago.

I think Bill Gate and Steve Job liked the idea and put into it a considerable amount of time to improve it.


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  #683 (permalink)
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trendisyourfriend View Post
I think Bill Gate and Steve Job liked the idea and put into it a considerable amount of time to improve it.

The Chinese neither invented the One nor the Zero. The Zero came to us from India, and without that Zero neither Bill nor Steve would have made it very far.

The abacus requires more than two digits to perform the calculations, so compared to an IPAD it is pretty sophisticated.

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  #684 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
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As long as we're wondering in this thread, I find it curious that a company would chase ghosts with respect to patent law on nebulous concepts.

Just because I combine 2 ingredients in my kitchen, doesn't give me the right to patent it and sue anyone else who happens to find it suitable.

Code is less nebulous...and easier to patent, but the idea of a particular configuration of parameters being intellectual property isn't really a solid/tenable position. Any good patent lawyer would have told them that. There are very few absolutes in a courtroom, which is why arguments range from weak to strong.....trying to patent the concept of a DOM is about as weak as trying to patent the combination of chocolate and peanut butter.........even if you COULD do it, going after every person that codes their own version isn't really feasible or practical.

The second part (feasibility and practicality) is what still plagues intellecutal and artistic rights from porn to music to movies. Just because you own the rights to something, doesn't mean that you'll be able to effectively enforce it. The RIAA can no easier stem piracy through legal means than the porn produces who's frustrated because people aren't buying his DVD's that are now on free porn sites. Both industries have been decimated recently.

The only viable solution is through technology and preventing people from accessing the intellectual property. Software companies and music/movies are making headway against black markets.

In the case of the DOM, there's really nothing to stop anyone from taking the concept and coding their own version and there's virtually no way to stop/regulate them from doing so....legally or technically.....

As I said, they'd have been better off to get a competent lawyer who could have told them this in the first place or listened to the one they had. Trying to effectively patent and regulate the use of a "DOM" is akin to trying to patent and regulate the concept of a mancave. If some other guy builds his own mancave, and you came up with the idea......good luck on collecting your perceived due compensation or preventing every other swinging richard from doing the same.

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  #685 (permalink)
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RM99 View Post
As long as we're wondering in this thread, I find it curious that a company would chase ghosts with respect to patent law on nebulous concepts.

Just because I combine 2 ingredients in my kitchen, doesn't give me the right to patent it and sue anyone else who happens to find it suitable.

Code is less nebulous...and easier to patent, but the idea of a particular configuration of parameters being intellectual property isn't really a solid/tenable position. Any good patent lawyer would have told them that. There are very few absolutes in a courtroom, which is why arguments range from weak to strong.....trying to patent the concept of a DOM is about as weak as trying to patent the combination of chocolate and peanut butter.........even if you COULD do it, going after every person that codes their own version isn't really feasible or practical.

The second part (feasibility and practicality) is what still plagues intellecutal and artistic rights from porn to music to movies. Just because you own the rights to something, doesn't mean that you'll be able to effectively enforce it. The RIAA can no easier stem piracy through legal means than the porn produces who's frustrated because people aren't buying his DVD's that are now on free porn sites. Both industries have been decimated recently.

The only viable solution is through technology and preventing people from accessing the intellectual property. Software companies and music/movies are making headway against black markets.

In the case of the DOM, there's really nothing to stop anyone from taking the concept and coding their own version and there's virtually no way to stop/regulate them from doing so....legally or technically.....

As I said, they'd have been better off to get a competent lawyer who could have told them this in the first place or listened to the one they had. Trying to effectively patent and regulate the use of a "DOM" is akin to trying to patent and regulate the concept of a mancave. If some other guy builds his own mancave, and you came up with the idea......good luck on collecting your perceived due compensation or preventing every other swinging richard from doing the same.

I think if the DOM patent was challenge and litigated, TT would loose. I don't know if anyone has tried. TT is using the fear of litigation, and potential cost of litigation to force other companies to pay them for a concept. They know full well that these smaller companies like NinjaTrader, etc. are too small to bear the burden to litigate. Of course those companies are going to agree to pay a fee, because that fee is passed directly on to us, it costs them nothing. We are the ones being raked over the coals. It is pure extortion. Why aren't the exchanges paying TT? Because they had enough capital to be willing to go to court and challenge them. I think the moment a couple of companies start challenging the TT litigation threats from that patent, we will see that monopoly laid to rest. It is just way to difficult to litigate software.

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  #686 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Yes, I agree it's not an easy call.

But in the case of the DOM. It's clearly an invention by Trading Technologies and copied without shame by anybody who makes a trading program.

I hate paying the extremely high x-trader fee, but the X-trader dom works just so darned good. I understand they sue anybody around there about it. I would do just the same when everybody in the business copied my idea, and if I would have the funds for it. You could also reverse it, and say x-trader is so expensive because they have to sue everybody.


You're preaching to the choir...I'm the only guy on the planet that still pays for music he downloads...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #687 (permalink)
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Moderator Note


The TT patent discussion deserves its own thread and is somewhat off-topic for this thread. Please continue the debate in the below thread, where I have copied the posts.

Please post replies about the patent in that new thread only. I have left the posts here in this thread simply for continuity.




https://futures.io/platforms-indicators/9301-tradingtechnologies-dom-patent-royalty-licensing-fees.html

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  #688 (permalink)
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Problem with Daily Data

In my opinion NinjaTrader still has a problem with parallel loading of daily data from Kinetick and data/brokerfeeds used for loading intraday data.

I am regularly contacted, when false pivots are displayed, and typically the problem can be traced back to false historical daily data. As far as I have noticed NinjaTrader currently cannot display daily data from Zenfire, Rithmic, eSignal and Interactive Brokers (maybe others as well).

Although a huge step has been made with Kinetick EOD, this only helps if

- a parallel connection (first connection Kinetick, second connection intraday data provider / broker feed) can be established
- or if the other feed can be configured not to overwrite the daily data loaded via Kinetick

Currently neither Kinetick/eSignal, Kinetick/Zenfire or Kinetick/Rithmic seems to be a possible solution, as there is no option to get correct historical data for yesterday, when being connected.

Kinetick/Interactive Brokers is one of the combinations that currently work. The daily data downloaded via Kinetick is not replaced with bad data from Interactive Brokers, except for today and tomorrow (see chart attached).


Even if the data is there, it cannot always be used

When daily data is loaded asynchronously, it can used by the indicator itself, but the values calculated cannot be further accessed by strategies and indicators.

If daily data is added via a DataSeries, this may, depending on the session template, insert the daily data prior to the session end. So none of the two options is currently easy to use. I have not added an option to add daily bars to recent multi time frame indicators.

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The Truth:  NinjaTrader-es-06-11-daily-09_03_2011-07_04_2011.jpg  

Last edited by Fat Tails; April 6th, 2011 at 02:08 PM.
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  #689 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
...I am regularly contacted, when false pivots are displayed, and typically the problem can be traced back to false historical daily data. As far as I have noticed NinjaTrader currently cannot display daily data from Zenfire, Rithmic, eSignal and Interactive Brokers (maybe others as well).
...

Thanks for bringing that discussion back on the table. I find it curious that it is practically never discussed to the point i felt i was the only person having this problem. I have seen a change with Ninja in the last couple of days in the way it loads data i'll take some screen captures tomorrow to explain what i mean. Meanwhile i get the right pivots because when i connect to Kinetick in the morning i export the daily bars in Excel (right-click on the day table) and then i disconnect from Kinetick and connect to my broker, load a daily chart containing only the last day and today (Yesterday to the present time) and modify the levels (OHLC) that are wrong for yesterday then i am ok. Once a number (OHLCV) is manually edited, Ninja seems to leave it alone and do not change it. However, since a couple of days, i only need to replace the Close for the settlement price and Volume previously saved in Excel from Kinetick while before i had to modify some of the other levels as well such as the OHL.


Last edited by trendisyourfriend; April 6th, 2011 at 06:34 PM.
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  #690 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
In my opinion NinjaTrader still has a problem with parallel loading of daily data from Kinetick and data/brokerfeeds used for loading intraday data.

I am regularly contacted, when false pivots are displayed, and typically the problem can be traced back to false historical daily data. As far as I have noticed NinjaTrader currently cannot display daily data from Zenfire, Rithmic, eSignal and Interactive Brokers (maybe others as well).

Although a huge step has been made with Kinetick EOD, this only helps if

- a parallel connection (first connection Kinetick, second connection intraday data provider / broker feed) can be established
- or if the other feed can be configured not to overwrite the daily data loaded via Kinetick

Currently neither Kinetick/eSignal, Kinetick/Zenfire or Kinetick/Rithmic seems to be a possible solution, as there is no option to get correct historical data for yesterday, when being connected.

Kinetick/Interactive Brokers is one of the combinations that currently work. The daily data downloaded via Kinetick is not replaced with bad data from Interactive Brokers, except for today and tomorrow (see chart attached).


Even if the data is there, it cannot always be used

When daily data is loaded asynchronously, it can used by the indicator itself, but the values calculated cannot be further accessed by strategies and indicators.

If daily data is added via a DataSeries, this may, depending on the session template, insert the daily data prior to the session end. So none of the two options is currently easy to use. I have not added an option to add daily bars to recent multi time frame indicators.

Fat Tails,

Thanks for your post. I see two separate but related issues you have raised both related to indicator development that requires access to daily data for use in calculating values plotted on intraday time frames.

First, on the loading and display of daily charts from various feeds, we do not see any problems on our end thus, Josh our product manager will follow up with you privately on this item so as to not pollute this thread with ping pong text while trying to reproduce the behavior you report. From our past history of working with you, I am sure we will be able to get to the bottom of your concern and address it appropriately.

For the daily data usage in NinjaScript for your indicators, you can access asynchronously loaded daily data’s calculated indicator values from other scripts in real-time, but to do so you would need to first ensure that the values actually exists. This means checking things like .ContainsValue or .IsValidPlot. This does come at the limitation of not being able to process it historically though. The other method you mentioned of just adding the daily data via a DataSeries to the script itself does indeed come with the prerequisite you also discussed. To do it this route, you must have the daily DataSeries running off of the same session template as the daily bars were created from.” As you pointed out, not ideal in the ease of use department.

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