As long as we're wondering in this thread, I find it curious that a company would chase ghosts with respect to patent law on nebulous concepts.
Just because I combine 2 ingredients in my kitchen, doesn't give me the right to patent it and sue anyone else who happens to find it suitable.
Code is less nebulous...and easier to patent, but the idea of a particular configuration of parameters being intellectual property isn't really a solid/tenable position. Any good patent lawyer would have told them that. There are very few absolutes in a courtroom, which is why arguments range from weak to strong.....trying to patent the concept of a DOM is about as weak as trying to patent the combination of chocolate and peanut butter.........even if you COULD do it, going after every person that codes their own version isn't really feasible or practical.
The second part (feasibility and practicality) is what still plagues intellecutal and artistic rights from porn to music to movies. Just because you own the rights to something, doesn't mean that you'll be able to effectively enforce it. The RIAA can no easier stem piracy through legal means than the porn produces who's frustrated because people aren't buying his DVD's that are now on free porn sites. Both industries have been decimated recently.
The only viable solution is through technology and preventing people from accessing the intellectual property. Software companies and music/movies are making headway against black markets.
In the case of the DOM, there's really nothing to stop anyone from taking the concept and coding their own version and there's virtually no way to stop/regulate them from doing so....legally or technically.....
As I said, they'd have been better off to get a competent lawyer who could have told them this in the first place or listened to the one they had. Trying to effectively patent and regulate the use of a "DOM" is akin to trying to patent and regulate the concept of a mancave. If some other guy builds his own mancave, and you came up with the idea......good luck on collecting your perceived due compensation or preventing every other swinging richard from doing the same.
I think if the DOM patent was challenge and litigated, TT would loose. I don't know if anyone has tried. TT is using the fear of litigation, and potential cost of litigation to force other companies to pay them for a concept. They know full well that these smaller companies like NinjaTrader, etc. are too small to bear the burden to litigate. Of course those companies are going to agree to pay a fee, because that fee is passed directly on to us, it costs them nothing. We are the ones being raked over the coals. It is pure extortion. Why aren't the exchanges paying TT? Because they had enough capital to be willing to go to court and challenge them. I think the moment a couple of companies start challenging the TT litigation threats from that patent, we will see that monopoly laid to rest. It is just way to difficult to litigate software.
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In my opinion NinjaTrader still has a problem with parallel loading of daily data from Kinetick and data/brokerfeeds used for loading intraday data.
I am regularly contacted, when false pivots are displayed, and typically the problem can be traced back to false historical daily data. As far as I have noticed NinjaTrader currently cannot display daily data from Zenfire, Rithmic, eSignal and Interactive Brokers (maybe others as well).
Although a huge step has been made with Kinetick EOD, this only helps if
- a parallel connection (first connection Kinetick, second connection intraday data provider / broker feed) can be established
- or if the other feed can be configured not to overwrite the daily data loaded via Kinetick
Currently neither Kinetick/eSignal, Kinetick/Zenfire or Kinetick/Rithmic seems to be a possible solution, as there is no option to get correct historical data for yesterday, when being connected.
Kinetick/Interactive Brokers is one of the combinations that currently work. The daily data downloaded via Kinetick is not replaced with bad data from Interactive Brokers, except for today and tomorrow (see chart attached).
Even if the data is there, it cannot always be used
When daily data is loaded asynchronously, it can used by the indicator itself, but the values calculated cannot be further accessed by strategies and indicators.
If daily data is added via a DataSeries, this may, depending on the session template, insert the daily data prior to the session end. So none of the two options is currently easy to use. I have not added an option to add daily bars to recent multi time frame indicators.
Last edited by Fat Tails; April 6th, 2011 at 01:08 PM.
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Thanks for bringing that discussion back on the table. I find it curious that it is practically never discussed to the point i felt i was the only person having this problem. I have seen a change with Ninja in the last couple of days in the way it loads data i'll take some screen captures tomorrow to explain what i mean. Meanwhile i get the right pivots because when i connect to Kinetick in the morning i export the daily bars in Excel (right-click on the day table) and then i disconnect from Kinetick and connect to my broker, load a daily chart containing only the last day and today (Yesterday to the present time) and modify the levels (OHLC) that are wrong for yesterday then i am ok. Once a number (OHLCV) is manually edited, Ninja seems to leave it alone and do not change it. However, since a couple of days, i only need to replace the Close for the settlement price and Volume previously saved in Excel from Kinetick while before i had to modify some of the other levels as well such as the OHL.
Last edited by trendisyourfriend; April 6th, 2011 at 05:34 PM.
Thanks for your post. I see two separate but related issues you have raised both related to indicator development that requires access to daily data for use in calculating values plotted on intraday time frames.
First, on the loading and display of daily charts from various feeds, we do not see any problems on our end thus, Josh our product manager will follow up with you privately on this item so as to not pollute this thread with ping pong text while trying to reproduce the behavior you report. From our past history of working with you, I am sure we will be able to get to the bottom of your concern and address it appropriately.
For the daily data usage in NinjaScript for your indicators, you can access asynchronously loaded daily data’s calculated indicator values from other scripts in real-time, but to do so you would need to first ensure that the values actually exists. This means checking things like .ContainsValue or .IsValidPlot. This does come at the limitation of not being able to process it historically though. The other method you mentioned of just adding the daily data via a DataSeries to the script itself does indeed come with the prerequisite you also discussed. To do it this route, you must have the daily DataSeries running off of the same session template as the daily bars were created from.” As you pointed out, not ideal in the ease of use department.