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The Truth: NinjaTrader
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The Truth: NinjaTrader

  #291 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
Tried to update my charts today. Had holes for all futures contracts, 6 hours (the interval between 0:00 CET and 0:00 Eastern Time) missing after update.

I am now a bit disappointed with NT 7, as after months and months of discussions around session manager, timezones and mergebackadjusted, NT7 is not capable of performing the simple task to correctly load data into the data base.

I think the whole concept must be flawed, if it can't cope with timezones, sessions and datafeeds. Conceptually this is very easy to design, but somehow they must have chosen a wrong path.

So, my charts have holes again. I can't stand it anymore

I just discarded a week's worth of backtesting because the data was cockeyed. This was after NT support confirmed the bar building of historical tick data was accurate.

Moderator Note
Deleted a portion of this post. See post #296 for the reason why. -- Big Mike



Last edited by Big Mike; June 15th, 2010 at 01:01 PM. Reason: removed portion
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  #292 (permalink)
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For what it's worth, I have found NT7 to exceed my expectations over and again - and it's still a beta release. I'm interested in what is happening right now, not what happened yesterday. If one wants to back test or develop new strategies or pretend what they might have done if they traded yesterday, perhaps there are other products that more accurately serve that need. NT7 6.5 is the best trading platform I've used and NT7 appears to be even better - and it's still only a beta release!

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  #293 (permalink)
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timefreedom View Post
For what it's worth, I have found NT7 to exceed my expectations over and again - and it's still a beta release. I'm interested in what is happening right now, not what happened yesterday. If one wants to back test or develop new strategies or pretend what they might have done if they traded yesterday, perhaps there are other products that more accurately serve that need. NT7 6.5 is the best trading platform I've used and NT7 appears to be even better - and it's still only a beta release!

I agree, it's a very good trading platform.

However, and this is a BIG however, NT heavily markets the product with capabilities that it can't support adequately for professional use, such as backtesting and optimization on strategies employing bars built on ticks, not time. So, if they can't support these feautures, they shouldn't be selling them.

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  #294 (permalink)
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I've never seen a marketing piece for Ninja 6.5 or Ninja 7 so I cannot speak to the way they represent their platform. Professional traders are not heavily invested in either back testing or strategy optimization, and do utilize Ninjatrader. Below is the quote that prompted my initial reply:

"Either NT developpers are amateurs or the underlying concept of the database is not simple enough. It is obvious that they have a bit lost the orientation. "

I find that comment demeaning and inappropriate. Ninja is not perfect, has not been perfect in the past, and will not be perfect in the future. If they are making a mistake, it's in trying to do too much. When NT7 is finally released, everybody who doesn't get the feature they want is going to be disappointed. But what alternative do traders have? Whatever that answer is, why not just go use it now rather than referring to the Ninja developers as a "group of amateurs", especially considering this assessment is derived from a beta release product?



Zoethecus View Post
I agree, it's a very good trading platform.

However, and this is a BIG however, NT heavily markets the product with capabilities that it can't support adequately for professional use, such as backtesting and optimization on strategies employing bars built on ticks, not time. So, if they can't support these feautures, they shouldn't be selling them.


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  #295 (permalink)
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timefreedom,

I agree with you for the most part. I am just on the forum this morning catching up on posts. Several posts in this thread were Reported as inappropriate in the last few hours.

I have had my gripes with NinjaTrader. I've expressed them. I understand the need to vent sometimes, especially when you have such a close "relationship" with something like your trading platform that you are in front of 8+ hours a day. You may spend more time with NinjaTrader than with your wife and kids on many days.

I think it is natural to have strong emotional responses in this situation. But, I also don't want this forum to fill up with rude comments and posts. There are plenty of other forums where you can go talk like that

Moderator Note
With that said, I am going to delete some of the recent posts in this thread. You can continue to express your pleasure or displeasure about the topic. But, try to do it with more respect and less name calling.



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  #296 (permalink)
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timefreedom View Post
Professional traders are not heavily invested in either back testing or strategy optimization, and do utilize Ninjatrader.

Do you have any facts to support your statement?

Perhaps a distinction needs to be made bewteen so called "professional" retail traders and others like D.E.Shaw who don't use NT (or any of the retail solutions) and earn phenomenal returns through strategies which are tested and optimized beyond what most could imagine. Shaw and others of its ilk use SCIENCE to get an edge.

It's quite possible, given the cost and technology constraints, the retail trader will not anytime soon have access to a strategy development tool which provides sophisticated backtesting and optimization capabilities as advertised by NT. The current offering whether in 6.5 or 7 is a Model T in my opinion.

NT would have been better off sticking to what it does best instead of trying to be all things to all people.


Last edited by Zoethecus; June 15th, 2010 at 02:07 PM.
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  #297 (permalink)
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Zoethecus View Post
Do you have any facts to support your statement?

Perhaps a distinction needs to be made bewteen so called "professional" retail traders and others like D.E.Shaw who don't use NT (or any of the retail solutions) and earn phenomenal returns through strategies which are tested and optimized beyond what most could imagine. Shaw and others of its ilk use SCIENCE to get an edge.

It's quite possible, given the cost and technology constraints, the retail trader will not anytime soon have access to a strategy developement tool which provides sophisticated backtesting and optimization capabilities as advertised by NT. The current offering whether in 6.5 or 7 is a Model T in my opinion.

NT would have been better off sticking to what it does best instead of trying to be all things to all people.

Yes. Widely available, visit your local library and do a little research if you don't personally know or have access to any professional traders.

Rather than a distinction, perhaps a reminder that this thread pertains to NinjaTrader, and not proprietary, privately held platforms - all of which I'm quite certain have their strengths and weaknesses.

I understand your opinion of NT - you don't like it, but use it. When you find a superior alternative, please do share.

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  #298 (permalink)
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timefreedom View Post
I understand your opinion of NT - you don't like it, but use it. When you find a superior alternative, please do share.

As far as getting a good execution and trade management NT is more than adequate for my needs and I wholeheartedly recommend it.

But as far as the strategy development and ancillary capabilities NT advertises--indeed touts--on its website (which I'm sure you've seen despite your claim otherwise) there is, in my opinion, a gross misrepresentation of what it can do (not much) and can't do (a whole lot) in REALITY.

This may be a simple case of using a loss leader to drive the profitable side of the paid license business. After all, the strat development tinker toys are free and in this case, you do get what you pay for.

As far as a superior alternative to that aspect of NT, coin tossing immediately comes to mind.

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  #299 (permalink)
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NinjaTrader is definitely a good tool for trading, I use it and nobody forces me to do so, it is my own decision. I had my brokerage account first and looked for a software which would allow me

(1) trade execution via DOM
(2) charting capabilities including a proprietary language
(3) trade metrics
(4) backtesting

I am not yet into automated strategies, so I was not interested in the automation part.

I evaluated a number of front ends for trade execution, charting and backtesting software. NinjaTrader was the only software package offering all of these at a reasonable price. So far so good.

The problems came, when I used Ninjatrader, as the software did not perform up to my expectations. If I look at the four capabilities, today this is my experience with NT 6.5.

NinjaTrader 6.5

(1) trade execution: good (NT executes wrong contract months for energy futures and a number of other contracts with Interactive Brokers, developpers took an irresponsible stance not informing their customers and were not willing to provide a fix, otherwise my rating would have been "excellent")

(2) charting: mediocre (NT has potentially illimited capabilities, but NT 6.5. permanently crashed on loading data, created data gaps and spikes, could not load data depending on time zone, so basically I wasted a lot of time fighting with all the problems - if this software had worked properly, I would have rated it "excellent").

(3) trade metrics: poor (using Excel instead)

(4) backtesting: mediocre (without further explanations)

Conclusion: If it worked, it would be a first class charting and execution platform. But it did not work without a lot of problems. Looking backward I would have done better by purchasing an execution and a charting platform independently.

NinjaTrader 7

(1) and (2) have been considerably improved, which is encouraging. I siwtched to NT7 since a couple of months, because with NT 7 I am not suffering three crashes per day, but virtually none. However there is still a number of bugs. But it is a Beta, so it would be unfair to rate it, before it is released into production. Let us say it is definitely better than NT 6.5.

However, my NinjaTrader experience so far has been consuming too much time. Basically I want a tool that works. If it does not have all the bells and whistles of NT or only half of them, I am happy. What I look for is reliablity and stability. Wasting too much time, checking data, digging into trace files after error messages, explaining spikes and holes, I do not want all this. Just want a working tool with some of my simple indicators to trade.

Will not divorce from NinjaTrader, but make a new investment (in working with another tool, I am talking about time here, not money), as I do not feel that I can rely on NinjaTrader as I would. If NinjaTrader becomes more reliable, much the better, I still own it.

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  #300 (permalink)
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timefreedom View Post
Yes. Widely available, visit your local library and do a little research if you don't personally know or have access to any professional traders.

Stuff that is two decades old and has nothing to do with the present.

Ninja is fine IMO as long as you forget about the strategy developement part.
I think you have to consider at the institutional level even, they aren't doing what ninja is trying to do. Big funds and banks don't have their own in house language that they have made into a swiss army knife for all market problems.
I know a guy that works in fixed income doing interest rate modelling and he just makes matlab models all day. His firm though didn't try to make their own version of matlab or just because matlab is being used to model problems, turn matlab into some kind of execution software for the traders.
I've never used some of the low/mid level hedge fund all in one software that is out there but I'm sure out of the box it has the same problems as ninja. The difference though is for the price you also probably get highly customized solutions from the developement team, but for ninjas price this just is not practical obviously.
Its not like there is a huge price wall between you and what D.E.Shaw is using for strategy developement most likely...Matlab, R, Python, Excel, then translate things into the execution software's language..besides for matlab its practically free.
Marketting to fools who think they are going to make money off automated MA cross systems is ultimately good for the company and most users. Even at the expense of some developement resources. No one would be happy if they tossed the kitchen sink developement resource wise at strategy backtesting.

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