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websouth's shared Price Action templates
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websouth's shared Price Action templates

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Concord, NH USA
 
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websouth View Post
Mike,
OK - here's another idea from the "radical". Call it OPM (other peoples money). Do you ever place a trade and get stopped out only to find the price reverses and goes in your original direction? If this has never happened to you then you have never traded....hehe.

Note: I don't trade ES, CL, or ZN ... I trade currencies so this may or may not apply.

This is to be done as a supplement to your regularly scheduled trading...

So try this - trade 10 times as small with a stop 10 times as wide. (or 100 times as small with stops 100 times as wide - experiment) ) Same money right.
Let's use dollars for example. Say you typically set a stop loss at a risk of 5 pips/ticks and you put on trades @ $40 a pip so the value of the risk to you is $200. So change that to 50 pip stop loss and trade smaller @ $4. a pip. Hardly seems worth your time, right? Keep reading.

Figure out how to risk the same money you do now but widen your stops. If you can't pick a direction with a stop 5 pips wide how about 50 pips wide or 100. This is mildly interesting up to now but what you do next is take your profit (you were profitable, right? If you weren't you risked no more than usual but got to play a little longer term) and add it to your original stake. Then the next trade is put on using your new larger buying power so you may be @ $6 a pip but the stop is still a money stop in other words keep it @ losing your original $200. Stop loss = AccountValue before first trade - $original risk.

So you put on trade 2 and you still have a risk the same as your first trade. Keep doing this and pyramid the amount of money you trade with but keep the stop as original. After a few trades you can move your money stop up to even and you are now playing for free with huge stops because you are only using winnings to trade. So soon you are swinging $20,000 on a trade with a stop loss @ letting it go to zero. (don't do this...hehe) But that is a lot of breathing room to get on the right side of a trade.

This idea bugs people because they want to take profits or they can't stand to "give back" profits. But if you think about this. An 80% drawdown once this gets going is cutting into "potential" profits not your trading money at this point. Yes it sucks but you are out the little time it took to put the trades on and you are still profitable from your original stake. You are using your winnings to trade with. This system can scale faster than you think. The only thing to control is your nerve. You would not want to see $100,000 turn back to flat even but what if it did? This is a side bet you originally risked $200 on. Take that "system" you have that you like but it has 80% drawdown and give it a whirl...
You may need to change your charts to think longer term bigger stops.

My personal results with this? Largest return - I have turned this side bet into a 60x my money winner.

I find this theory fascinating, although I must admit I'm still a bit confused. Lets say that normally you would risk 10 tics in the CL which is 100.00 per contract and you are shooting for a 10 tic PT would you now raise that 10 tic stop to 100 which is 1000.00 per contract? Do you still have the 10 tic PT? And once you get the profit, you're saying that you continually do this with the same 100 tic stop but now perhaps trading additional contracts for the same 10 tic profit? Do I understand the idea correctly?

Thanks,

Jeff

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  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Scarborough, Ontario
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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Can't really with futures because the contract minimum is one and the tick gain/loss is fixed, eg 12.50 for 1 tick on ES (S&P).

I know what you mean in FOREX it is the position size or lot size.

The room to move in futures need to be wider. Especially fast moving animals like CL, crude. I have experienced that crude with a 4 tick SL will not work because it moves so fast that the SL sent to the exchange is not valid because the price has moved way beyond your SL target.

A similar method I use is with one contract in consolidating position.

Use 1 contract or lot instead of 2 or more to scale out. Minimizes your risk. Imagine your big target but you need small step to reach it. This is an extreme scalp with a bigger picture in mind.

Enter 1 contract with a pre-determined stop that you are comfortable. 4 ticks
Take profit earliest that you are sure you can take, eg 4 ticks.
Enter where your exit was and now place the stop where your original 1st entry stop was. This means your stop is now 8 ticks behind.
Now my target is bigger with money already in the pocket. This is consolidating the position. I can also choose to close the positions based on situations like eco news or when my gut is wrenching "this look bad". I can exit say at 61.8% extension and wait to enter at a discount to further enhance my profitability and move my stop to a comfortable level. Still bearing in mind that I have money in the pocket confirmed.
This bearing in mind of the big picture but scalping my way there and giving back little or if you are confident, place the stop in your original first contract's stop.

Hope it makes sense.

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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Perdido Beach, AL
 
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Ha ha - now I am the one confused...

I find this theory fascinating, although I must admit I'm still a bit confused. Lets say that normally you would risk 10 tics in the CL which is 100.00 per contract and you are shooting for a 10 tic PT would you now raise that 10 tic stop to 100 which is 1000.00 per contract? Do you still have the 10 tic PT? And once you get the profit, you're saying that you continually do this with the same 100 tic stop but now perhaps trading additional contracts for the same 10 tic profit? Do I understand the idea correctly?

I don't know what this means - raise that 10 tic stop to 100 which is 1000.00 per contract?

Raise the stop amount yes. The contract amount ? I trade currencies and don't know the translation. You should be trading less money with larger stop. The Risk$ is still equal to your usual play. Profit target should be higher and you have more wiggle room to get there. 10x or more. Futures may not scale like this. I can trade Spot Forex as low as @ 50 cents a tick. You are essentially playing on a larger time frame and trading less stressfully. If you pyramid the profits giving them time to get there you can trade with "their money" after a few trades. "Their" money + less time looking at charts =

If you can get your stop far enough you can play multiday which can turn into crazy money.


edit - looks like from post above that futures doesn't work like this. Sorry. Different animals...

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websouth's shared Price Action templates-multiday.jpg  

Last edited by websouth; September 8th, 2009 at 03:43 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Scarborough, Ontario
 
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Even 6E, EURUSD futures will close at intraday. Though at $12.50 a tick, 6E is also very profitable. You can try it intraday. One contract margin is $1000 or $500 depending on the broker.

I know what you are saying. I think my method is similar. Using 1 contract and getting in where the exit was and leaving the stop at the original location of the 1st entry. That I lose only my original intended money.

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  #15 (permalink)
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KL
 
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Use Forex broker for CL/YM/ES....

Hi All.

I have the same problem when I trade CL. I do well when its trending but chop mode always hits my stop and then go in my intended direction. I figure my stops were too tight. But I also didn't want to widen stops.

I found out that I could trade cl with micro lots with some forex brokers. I could go up to $1 per tick instead of the normal $10 per tick if routed direct to the exchange. So now I can widen my stops, take higher targets and have less stress.

I think this is only a problem for traders like me who have less than $10000 account. CL can move 30-50 ticks in a blink.

But of course some of these forex brokers have their setbacks too, I think they run their own price exchange so you must find a reliable one. The one I trade with has the exact price spreads as my Ninja/Zen Fire DOM. So no problem so far.

Cheers.
Joel

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  #16 (permalink)
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Slightly off-topic, but you may look at QM. It's the mini version of crude. However, I looked at it and hated it... but to each his own.

Mike

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  #17 (permalink)
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B Mike

is it possible to add a "Arrow" in the Visual at the entry like how is shown in Roonius's SuperTrend. It helsp a lot to spot the entry and it looks very clear in the chart.

In fact, wanted to ask the same for TripleEMA or TrendBars and am sorry I am not coder so don't know how to add it myself

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  #18 (permalink)
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if your a vip subscriber i already did a triple ma dots just look in triple ma thread...sharky

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  #19 (permalink)
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traderjoel why dont you just try a different market like the 6e or 6j i think that by just going mini will not fix any problems you either need to work thru why youe not able to stay out of chop or move to another market thats alittls slower on the moves maybe even try the xn or the zb...sharky

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  #20 (permalink)
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and try the sharkband set to 8 or 10 and trade breakouts of the s/r zones or put a bolinger band on your chart there are many ways to stay out of chop,try the sharkfin set to 5 or 6...sharky

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