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Important issue with the Ninjatrader 8 platform and team's attitude


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Important issue with the Ninjatrader 8 platform and team's attitude

  #11 (permalink)
 elitecamper 
McAllen, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts, Jigsaw
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This problem can happen with any platform or any broker. There can be technical difficulties on their side or your side. To request a refund of your profits is not realistic. Next time it happens call the trade desk so they can close your position.

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  #12 (permalink)
 
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 MiniP 
USA,USA
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dk27 View Post
Everything would be frozen if connection was lost, now price was moving but the user couldn't modify the order.

you can't tell the connection was lost from a picture if the connection was lost then like he said price wouldn't have filled his order and it would of just sat there. HE could have easily re-gained connection and moved the order again and before the charts were fully loaded his order would of been hit.

if you see price sit at a level for 5 minutes on something as liquid as the es/mes then you have a problem.. it simply doesn't happen during RTH even on the slowest of days it chops back and forth +/- a tick


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  #13 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart/Prorealtime
Broker: Sierra Chart/prorealtime
Trading: SandP futures
Posts: 510 since Jul 2013
Thanks Given: 122
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This is a great example of what happens when you use cheaper options to trade with. It's all fine in normal conditions (well actually not even that due to the problems you have described), but when things go wrong in a fast market (sudden unexpected news etc) then you can end up losing a lot more than you can control and all of a sudden that cheaper trading package looks a lot more expensive.

I used NT years ago and it was always crashing on me. Might have changed but who knows?


Then I had a similar issue to the one that is explained here and found out that all orders (stops/limits/take profit etc) are held locally ON YOUR MACHINE and not on the actual exchange. This means there are 2 massive problems:

1) If you lose internet connection whilst in a trade then your orders that reside 'on your machine' are not active. You are in the market with no protection. I do not know what happens when an internet connection is restored and whether your orders come back on. You might lose internet connection briefly and be unaware of it and then what? Are your orders still active? You'll need to check this but the fact that your orders are definitely NOT held on the exchange if your connection goes down is absolutely crazy in terms of risk.

2) In a fast market, where big news has come out, or a big event has randomly occurred (terrorist attack, a Trump tweet about trade war etcetc) then price will jump, jump big and jump fast.
Now think about it, you're in a trade nowhere near a scheduled news release and price jumps. Your stop loss order is held on your machine (if it is still there at all) and not the actual exchange. Considering that milliseconds are HUGE gaps of time in this type of market environment, the following is going to happen. Your PC and internet connection at home/your office (in regional USA/Europe/SE Asia/Australia which is many miles from the CME servers in Chicago, meaning delays due to distance and quality of internet connection etc etc) will transmit your stop loss/any other order to the CME server only when it is deemed by the NT software to have hit/gone through the limit price. In a fast market price can and will gap up/down, or provide very little liquidity at a variety of price levels. So you've bought the market at 2800 with a stop loss at 2798 and Trump tweets. Price instantly leaps lower and shoots through 2798. If your order was already at the exchange then it will be in the queue ready to be executed at the best price, and maybe even at 2798 if there is liquidity. If not then you'll get the best price. But with NT, when price has moved through 2798 then ONLY THEN is it forwarded to the CME servers and is active on the exchange. This gap in time in a fast market is HUGE. I really cannot describe how important such a delay can be, let alone when allied with worries about your orders and internet connection.

In my opinion NT is a good charting package (if it crashes a lot less than when I used it!) but that's all it should be used for. Only use an order management system where your order levels that you select on your PC are submitted directly to the exchange and still reside there if your internet connection is turned off.

I believe that Optimus futures and AMP futures have a variety of ordering systems and are fairly active on this website so you can ask them.

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  #14 (permalink)
 
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Keab View Post
Then I had a similar issue to the one that is explained here and found out that all orders (stops/limits/take profit etc) are held locally ON YOUR MACHINE and not on the actual exchange. This means there are 2 massive problems:

This is a false, inaccurate statement. Orders are held, active and working at the exchange(s). Here is a relevant link from our Help Guide that details this further.

https://ninjatrader.com/support/helpGuides/nt8/en-us/?where_do_your_orders_reside_.htm

Disclosure: This communication is sent to you by NinjaTrader, LLC, a software development company which owns and supports all proprietary technology relating to and including the NinjaTrader trading platform.
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  #15 (permalink)
 
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 JonnyBoy 
Montreal, Quebec
 
Experience: Advanced
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Keab View Post
This is a great example of what happens when you use cheaper options to trade with. It's all fine in normal conditions (well actually not even that due to the problems you have described), but when things go wrong in a fast market (sudden unexpected news etc) then you can end up losing a lot more than you can control and all of a sudden that cheaper trading package looks a lot more expensive.

I used NT years ago and it was always crashing on me. Might have changed but who knows?


Then I had a similar issue to the one that is explained here and found out that all orders (stops/limits/take profit etc) are held locally ON YOUR MACHINE and not on the actual exchange. This means there are 2 massive problems:

1) If you lose internet connection whilst in a trade then your orders that reside 'on your machine' are not active. You are in the market with no protection. I do not know what happens when an internet connection is restored and whether your orders come back on. You might lose internet connection briefly and be unaware of it and then what? Are your orders still active? You'll need to check this but the fact that your orders are definitely NOT held on the exchange if your connection goes down is absolutely crazy in terms of risk.

2) In a fast market, where big news has come out, or a big event has randomly occurred (terrorist attack, a Trump tweet about trade war etcetc) then price will jump, jump big and jump fast.
Now think about it, you're in a trade nowhere near a scheduled news release and price jumps. Your stop loss order is held on your machine (if it is still there at all) and not the actual exchange. Considering that milliseconds are HUGE gaps of time in this type of market environment, the following is going to happen. Your PC and internet connection at home/your office (in regional USA/Europe/SE Asia/Australia which is many miles from the CME servers in Chicago, meaning delays due to distance and quality of internet connection etc etc) will transmit your stop loss/any other order to the CME server only when it is deemed by the NT software to have hit/gone through the limit price. In a fast market price can and will gap up/down, or provide very little liquidity at a variety of price levels. So you've bought the market at 2800 with a stop loss at 2798 and Trump tweets. Price instantly leaps lower and shoots through 2798. If your order was already at the exchange then it will be in the queue ready to be executed at the best price, and maybe even at 2798 if there is liquidity. If not then you'll get the best price. But with NT, when price has moved through 2798 then ONLY THEN is it forwarded to the CME servers and is active on the exchange. This gap in time in a fast market is HUGE. I really cannot describe how important such a delay can be, let alone when allied with worries about your orders and internet connection.

In my opinion NT is a good charting package (if it crashes a lot less than when I used it!) but that's all it should be used for. Only use an order management system where your order levels that you select on your PC are submitted directly to the exchange and still reside there if your internet connection is turned off.

I believe that Optimus futures and AMP futures have a variety of ordering systems and are fairly active on this website so you can ask them.

What you are stating here about where the orders reside is untrue.

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  #16 (permalink)
 AnyM 
Bangkok, Thailand
 
Experience: None
Platform: Ninjatrader 8
Broker: NT Continuum TastyWorks
Trading: ES
Posts: 65 since Jun 2013
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Keab View Post
This is a great example of what happens when you use cheaper options to trade with. It's all fine in normal conditions (well actually not even that due to the problems you have described), but when things go wrong in a fast market (sudden unexpected news etc) then you can end up losing a lot more than you can control and all of a sudden that cheaper trading package looks a lot more expensive.

I used NT years ago and it was always crashing on me. Might have changed but who knows?


Then I had a similar issue to the one that is explained here and found out that all orders (stops/limits/take profit etc) are held locally ON YOUR MACHINE and not on the actual exchange. This means there are 2 massive problems:

1) If you lose internet connection whilst in a trade then your orders that reside 'on your machine' are not active. You are in the market with no protection. I do not know what happens when an internet connection is restored and whether your orders come back on. You might lose internet connection briefly and be unaware of it and then what? Are your orders still active? You'll need to check this but the fact that your orders are definitely NOT held on the exchange if your connection goes down is absolutely crazy in terms of risk.

2) In a fast market, where big news has come out, or a big event has randomly occurred (terrorist attack, a Trump tweet about trade war etcetc) then price will jump, jump big and jump fast.
Now think about it, you're in a trade nowhere near a scheduled news release and price jumps. Your stop loss order is held on your machine (if it is still there at all) and not the actual exchange. Considering that milliseconds are HUGE gaps of time in this type of market environment, the following is going to happen. Your PC and internet connection at home/your office (in regional USA/Europe/SE Asia/Australia which is many miles from the CME servers in Chicago, meaning delays due to distance and quality of internet connection etc etc) will transmit your stop loss/any other order to the CME server only when it is deemed by the NT software to have hit/gone through the limit price. In a fast market price can and will gap up/down, or provide very little liquidity at a variety of price levels. So you've bought the market at 2800 with a stop loss at 2798 and Trump tweets. Price instantly leaps lower and shoots through 2798. If your order was already at the exchange then it will be in the queue ready to be executed at the best price, and maybe even at 2798 if there is liquidity. If not then you'll get the best price. But with NT, when price has moved through 2798 then ONLY THEN is it forwarded to the CME servers and is active on the exchange. This gap in time in a fast market is HUGE. I really cannot describe how important such a delay can be, let alone when allied with worries about your orders and internet connection.

In my opinion NT is a good charting package (if it crashes a lot less than when I used it!) but that's all it should be used for. Only use an order management system where your order levels that you select on your PC are submitted directly to the exchange and still reside there if your internet connection is turned off.

I believe that Optimus futures and AMP futures have a variety of ordering systems and are fairly active on this website so you can ask them.

This is a great example of someone who doesn't understand how the software and brokerage account they are using works

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  #17 (permalink)
 AlphaSquared 
Indianapolis, Indiana
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Trading: ES
Posts: 22 since Jun 2014
Thanks Given: 14
Thanks Received: 10


Keab View Post
This is a great example of what happens when you use cheaper options to trade with. It's all fine in normal conditions (well actually not even that due to the problems you have described), but when things go wrong in a fast market (sudden unexpected news etc) then you can end up losing a lot more than you can control and all of a sudden that cheaper trading package looks a lot more expensive.

I used NT years ago and it was always crashing on me. Might have changed but who knows?


Then I had a similar issue to the one that is explained here and found out that all orders (stops/limits/take profit etc) are held locally ON YOUR MACHINE and not on the actual exchange. This means there are 2 massive problems:

1) If you lose internet connection whilst in a trade then your orders that reside 'on your machine' are not active. You are in the market with no protection. I do not know what happens when an internet connection is restored and whether your orders come back on. You might lose internet connection briefly and be unaware of it and then what? Are your orders still active? You'll need to check this but the fact that your orders are definitely NOT held on the exchange if your connection goes down is absolutely crazy in terms of risk.

2) In a fast market, where big news has come out, or a big event has randomly occurred (terrorist attack, a Trump tweet about trade war etcetc) then price will jump, jump big and jump fast.
Now think about it, you're in a trade nowhere near a scheduled news release and price jumps. Your stop loss order is held on your machine (if it is still there at all) and not the actual exchange. Considering that milliseconds are HUGE gaps of time in this type of market environment, the following is going to happen. Your PC and internet connection at home/your office (in regional USA/Europe/SE Asia/Australia which is many miles from the CME servers in Chicago, meaning delays due to distance and quality of internet connection etc etc) will transmit your stop loss/any other order to the CME server only when it is deemed by the NT software to have hit/gone through the limit price. In a fast market price can and will gap up/down, or provide very little liquidity at a variety of price levels. So you've bought the market at 2800 with a stop loss at 2798 and Trump tweets. Price instantly leaps lower and shoots through 2798. If your order was already at the exchange then it will be in the queue ready to be executed at the best price, and maybe even at 2798 if there is liquidity. If not then you'll get the best price. But with NT, when price has moved through 2798 then ONLY THEN is it forwarded to the CME servers and is active on the exchange. This gap in time in a fast market is HUGE. I really cannot describe how important such a delay can be, let alone when allied with worries about your orders and internet connection.

In my opinion NT is a good charting package (if it crashes a lot less than when I used it!) but that's all it should be used for. Only use an order management system where your order levels that you select on your PC are submitted directly to the exchange and still reside there if your internet connection is turned off.

I believe that Optimus futures and AMP futures have a variety of ordering systems and are fairly active on this website so you can ask them.


You are soooooooo full of poop. Orders are on the CME server. NT has been probably the most stable piece of software I've ever used. I start it up on Sunday evening and it stays up until after the Friday close. Week after week. Been using it for going on 5 years now.
Patrick, indeed the whole platform staff, have never been less than great. Hell their whole customer service effort is great. But if this is indeed a fault with NT well schitt happens. It's a risk you assume when you use it. Personally it looks to me like the OP wasn't using the order system on the chart correctly. But no brokerage is going to warrant software against supposed losses like this. Can you imagine the fallout if they did? Within weeks every idiot and his grandmother would be trying to blame their trading mistakes on NT. It would be a nightmare.

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  #18 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart/Prorealtime
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AlphaSquared View Post

You are soooooooo full of poop. Orders are on the CME server. NT has been probably the most stable piece of software I've ever used. I start it up on Sunday evening and it stays up until after the Friday close. Week after week. Been using it for going on 5 years now.
Patrick, indeed the whole platform staff, have never been less than great. Hell their whole customer service effort is great. But if this is indeed a fault with NT well schitt happens. It's a risk you assume when you use it. Personally it looks to me like the OP wasn't using the order system on the chart correctly. But no brokerage is going to warrant software against supposed losses like this. Can you imagine the fallout if they did? Within weeks every idiot and his grandmother would be trying to blame their trading mistakes on NT. It would be a nightmare.

I'm happy to be proved wrong. When I was using it, which as I stated was years ago, the platform crashed a lot and the orders were held on my machine. I'm happy that this is no longer the case and things have improved!

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  #19 (permalink)
ycomp
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Keab View Post
I'm happy to be proved wrong. When I was using it, which as I stated was years ago, the platform crashed a lot and the orders were held on my machine. I'm happy that this is no longer the case and things have improved!

I wouldn't say it is that black and white... sure it's improved I think - but stablity also depends on what indicators and addons you use or install

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  #20 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart/Prorealtime
Broker: Sierra Chart/prorealtime
Trading: SandP futures
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ycomp View Post
I wouldn't say it is that black and white... sure it's improved I think - but stablity also depends on what indicators and addons you use or install

Yeah I didn't have too much on it, basic volume studies incl volume profile and that's it. Good to see that the stability has improved, I use Investor RT with TT order system through my broker now and that has not crashed in all the time that I have used it. On really big news announcement the feed from DTN IQ does lag for a minute or so (I'm in the UK) and I've hassled them about it before but not much can be done so I use a basic chart attached to my TT feed which stays up to date. So the only thing that can go wrong is my internet connection which is my problem!

Do you use NT and do you find it to be quite stable? It has good add ons, especially footprint charts which are lacking on Investor RT.

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