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NT7 problem
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NT7 problem

  #11 (permalink)
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rleplae View Post
I understand your point.

NT 8.0 has been announced for at least 2/3 years,

i have always read that the upgrade would require some rewrite of indicators.

\\ WHERE AND WHEN DID YOU READ THAT ?? I SUPPOSE YOU DID NOR READ THIS FROM NINJA OFFICIAL SITE A T T H E T I M E THEY ISSUED THEIR NT7 PLATFORM, SIMPLY BECAUSE AT THAT TIME (WHEN THEY LAUNCHEDTHEIR NT7 VERSION SOME YEARS AGO) IT WAS RATHER IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY TO PEOPLE WHAT THEIR N E X T VERSION NT8 WOULD REQUIRE "...SOME RERWITE OF INDICATORS..." !! I NEVER SAW SUCH A DECLARATION FROM NINJA' S SITE AND I ASSUME THAT MANY OTHER TRADERS DID NOT SEE IT AS WELL ( I F IT WAS EXISTED, WHICH I STRONGLY DOUBT).


I know there was also an important jump from NT 6 to NT 7 in the past.

Would you been happy if the NT8 had been 100% back-ward compatible ?

// YES.

In software it is quite common that after 5 years or 10 years, there is a major change.

// NT7 IS NOT A COMMON/USUAL S/W. ON THIS NT7 S/W WE SPENT 1000'S OF HOURS, MONEY AND SPIRIT TO D E V E L O P OUR INDICATORS AND STRATEGIES. IT WAS A BASIS FOR OUR F U R T H E R WORK AND MONEY INVESTMENT. ON THE OTHER HAND MANY OTHER COMMON OLD S/W CAN OPERATE WITHOUT PROBLEM IF YOU DONT WANT TO BUY OR USE, FOR SOME REASON, THEIR NEXT VERSION. SO PLS DO NOT COMPARE DIFFERENT THINGS AND S/W'S.

This is the case also for hardware and Operating system.

//SEE ABOVE - IRRELEVANT EXAMPLES.
I COULD REFER ANOTHER (IRRELEVANT) EXAMPLE : i HAVE MANY YEARS AN AUTOCAD V 10 AND 12 IN MY OFFICE WHICH ARE WORKING VERY GOOD, DESPITE OF THE NEWER AUTOCAD'S VERSIONS ISSUED THEREAFTER. BUT THIS COMPLETELEY IRRELEVANT EXAMPLES. SO PLS DONTCOMPARE WITH "HARDWARE" OR "OPERATING SYSTEMS".

I am already very happy that the NT 8 is available to all users free of charge, this is not always the case
with other software vendors, like Microsoft just to name one of them ...

// I HIGHLIGHT MY POINT AGAIN : IT'S NOT THE COST OF THE NT PLATFORM ITSELF (WHICH IS FREE, EXCEPT THE COST OF AN NT LIVE LICENCE). IT'S ALL THE OTHER COSTS WHICH WE ALREADY HAVE SPENT FOR OUR NT7 INDICATORS AND STRATEGIES (WHICH WILL NOT BE WORKING ON NT8) AND THE HUGE COSTS OF OURE 1000'S OF MANHOURS AND $$$ SPENT FOR WORK FOR OUR DEVELOPMENT (TO CREATE OUR INDICATORS AND STRATEGIES BASED ON THESE NT7 INDICATORS, ETC) AND THE HUGE COST OF OUR T I M E THAT WE NEED TO SPEND A G A I N TO RE-CREATE MOST OF OUR WORK FROM "SCRATCH", AND, FINALLY, THE COST OF OUR L I F E.
I AM SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT.

I have been building the last 2 years with NT 8 coming in mind, i took some decisions that will allow
me to migrate smoothly, but that is not on my radar now as an urgent to-do.

// THIS REFERES TO YOU - IRRELEVANT TO MY THREAD.

In your case, your NT 7 will just keep working. I have not seen an end-date been announced.
I remember a communication that both version will co-exist for a long period.

// " ... YOU... REMEMBER A ... COMMUNICATION ... LONG PERIOD ..." !!!!- WHAT'S THAT ??? THIS IS A VERY VAIG AND FOGGY STATEMENT FOR THIS VERY SERIOUS ISSUE. TELL US: WHEN, BY WHOM AND TO WHOM?

BUT THE FACT IS THAT: NT 7 WILL BE DEAD IN A FEW YEARS. FOR THE PRECISE AND OFFICIAL TIME OF THIS "DEATH" LET THE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE ( NINJA) TO MAKE AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT (IN THEIR WEBSITE) TO THE NT TRADERS WORLD ON WHAT THEY ARE FINALLY GOING TO DO. BECAUSE, WE. THE PEOPLE, DESERVE AND MUST HAVE A CLEAR, DETERMINED AND HONEST ANSWER. SIMPLE AS THAT.

On what time horizon do you see an issue ?

// SEE ABOVE



I understand your point.

NT 8.0 has been announced for at least 2/3 years, i have always read that the upgrade would require some rewrite of indicators. I know there was also an important jump from NT 6 to NT 7 in the past.

Would you been happy if the NT8 had been 100% back-ward compatible ?

In software it is quite common that after 5 years or 10 years, there is a major change.
This is the case also for hardware and Operating system.

I am already very happy that the NT 8 is available to all users free of charge, this is not always the case
with other software vendors, like Microsoft just to name one of them ...

I have been building the last 2 years with NT 8 coming in mind, i took some decisions that will allow
me to migrate smoothly, but that is not on my radar now as an urgent to-do.

In your case, your NT 7 will just keep working. I have not seen an end-date been announced.
I remember a communication that both version will co-exist for a long period.

On what time horizon do you see an issue ?

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  #12 (permalink)
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xplorer View Post
I understand how this may be viewed as an issue. However the reason why software manufactures (including Ninjatrader) are unable to support earlier versions in perpetuity is simply down to two factors

Progress
Most people tend to move on to newer versions of software products as time passes. In most cases the newer versions offer features that are not available in previous releases. Most importantly, newer software takes advantage of hardware features that were not available even 1-2 years earlier.

Cost
It would be impractical for SW manufacturers to still support versions from, say, 10 years ago. The costs involved would not justify the effort, especially given the first point, when the vast majority of users no longer uses the early product.


Do I agree with this model? Not necessarily. Do I understand why it's in place? Yes I do.

As rleplae pointed out, this is simply a price to pay for progress.

Having said that, nothing prevents you from not migrating. What I do when I want to stick with a certain SW product that is now obsolete is, I save the install executable files so in the event I have to reinstall it, I can. So even when, in a distant future, NT7 may no longer be around, you could still use it.


Hi,

thanks for yr reply.

I basically disagree with you, mostly because of the following reasons :

1) (starting from yr last sentense " ... nothing prevents you from not migrating. What I do when I want to stick with a certain SW product that is now obsolete is, I save the install executable files so in the event I have to reinstall it, I can. So even when, in a distant future, NT7 may no longer be around, you could still use it...".) :

If it is so easy for ME (or another TRADER) to make use (into NT8 s/w) everything (indicators, strategies, etc) I have now working in NT7 with just ... an "installation of executables files, etc." (!!), then WHY Ninja (in their NT 8 s/w ) does not automatically offer this "easy" procedure and solve out completely this "migrating" problem ??? and why is a matter of "Cost" for them as you stated in yr previous statements ? If it is so easy there should be only a very small cost for them to give the FINAL COMPLETE "migrating" solution to this problem.

So, these (of your above) sentenses are CONTRADICTORY and thus unacceptable.

The truth is, I think, that this issue is not "easy" as you said or ... "impractival..." (as you again vaigly stated) but is clearly SUBSTANTIALLY COSTLY FOR NINJA, something, which, Ninja, obviously (I think), tries to avoid and push it to the trader's side.

2) The "vast majority" of traders today follow NT 7 (see votes/poll's section in this forum). Furthermore, the majority of them already expressed negative opinions about NT8 operaion etc. and most of them are reluctant to switch.

3) You do not anwer to one CRITICAL point of my initial thread : Why Ninja did NOT notified officially IN THEIR WEBSITE (at the TIME of their NT7 release) their intentions about this problem in order the potential NT 7 users/traders at that time to be fully awared about what their future iontentions BEFORE they spend their own money, effort, time and LIFE on this s/w. Also, what will Ninja'a future intention be when when they release their next version (NT9?) so a todays trader to be fully awared what will he be facing whan this next version will be issued ? This is serious : We are talking about investments, huge efforts, lot of TIME and, above of all about, HUMAN LIFES !!

Thank you.-

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George P View Post
NinjaTrader NT7 will be DEAD afer a few years ! Do you, Ninja traders, around the world, know ? Are you awared about this issue ?? I have been very recently informed about that !

This statement is absolutely inaccurate. No one from NinjaTrader would have made a such a statement. As I have said in many webinars presented here at FIO, NinjaTrader 7 will be supported for many years to come. It will be end-of-lifed when it becomes commercially unreasonable to continue supporting it. As an example, NinjaTrader 6.5 was supported for an additional 5 years following the release of NinjaTrader 7.

Ray (Founder and CEO)

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It's the same thing whatever the software, you can't maintain forever each version.
In the software industry the yearly maintenance costs is around 22%/year and it can be more expensive with very obsolete software.
From what I understand NT7 is here for years, there is no EOL date yet, no need to panic.

edit: I didn't saw @NinjaTrader reply when I wrote this post but this confirm what was said previously about NT EOL.

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I am trying to stay factual.

NT8 was mentioned as early as 2011 ont BMT :
https://futures.io/ninjatrader/13894-unofficial-ninjatrader-8-wish-list-thread-ninjatrader-8-a.html

On this very forum there was a webinar (actuallty more than one) by NinjaTrader :

https://futures.io/ninjatrader/35704-webinar-ninjatrader-8-beta-ninjatrader-8-raymond-deux.html

Here is an official response from one of the NT support people :

How long will Ninjatrader 7 be working? - NinjaTrader Support Forum

It seems you missed a lot of that information, as you were not yet member at that time,
i'm not sure if those threads are available for a non elite member.

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NinjaTrader View Post
This statement is absolutely inaccurate. No one from NinjaTrader would have made a such a statement. As I have said in many webinars presented here at FIO, NinjaTrader 7 will be supported for many years to come. It will be end-of-lifed when it becomes commercially unreasonable to continue supporting it. As an example, NinjaTrader 6.5 was supported for an additional 5 years following the release of NinjaTrader 7.

Ray (Founder and CEO)

Hi Ray,

thanks for yr reply.
You just confirmed what I said. Because if we take your above example as basis of our chat ("...5 years following the release of NinjaTrader 7...") then how many years are left for the NT7's ("end-of-life") starting some time ago from the NT8's release date ? 4 years? max. 5 years? So, 4-5 years are "few"years from now, exactly as I said. Of course 4-5 years (in English language, even though English is not my native language) is not, I think, "many years" as you stated. Right ? On the other hand NT7 traders worldwide are not obliged to watch every webinar you do in a forum like this in order to hear this important information ! This kind of information - because of its importance and crucial effect to NT7 traders - should have been anounced IN DUY TIME (FROM THE BEGINING) in Ninja's OFFICIAL WEBSITE in order the interested trader and potential NT investors around the world to be officialy informed about this issue,and, thus, to be able to decide if they will spend their money and their LIFE in Ninja's s/w or somewhere else. This is at least my opinion and what I think.
Thank you.

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George P View Post
Hi Ray,

thanks for yr reply.
You just confirmed what I said. Because if we take your above example as basis of our chat ("...5 years following the release of NinjaTrader 7...") then how many years are left for the NT7's ("end-of-life") starting some time ago from the NT8's release date ? 4 years? max. 5 years? So, 4-5 years are "few"years from now, exactly as I said. Of course 4-5 years (in English language, even though English is not my native language) is not, I think, "many years" as you stated. Right ? On the other hand NT7 traders worldwide are not obliged to watch every webinar you do in a forum like this in order to hear this important information ! This kind of information - because of its importance and crucial effect to NT7 traders - should have been anounced IN DUY TIME (FROM THE BEGINING) in Ninja's OFFICIAL WEBSITE in order the interested trader and potential NT investors around the world to be officialy informed about this issue,and, thus, to be able to decide if they will spend their money and their LIFE in Ninja's s/w or somewhere else. This is at least my opinion and what I think.
Thank you.

Following your logic, I should state now when NinjaTrader 8 will be shelved? With all due respect, you are reading into things. Let me clarify what I stated earlier in this thread so there is no confusion.

NinjaTrader 6.5 was supported for five more years after the "production" release date of NinjaTrader 7. That would be the equivalent of NinjaTrader 7 now being support through the year 2021.

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NinjaTrader View Post
Following your logic, I should state now when NinjaTrader 8 will be shelved? With all due respect, you are reading into things. Let me clarify what I stated earlier in this thread so there is no confusion.

NinjaTrader 6.5 was supported for five more years after the "production" release date of NinjaTrader 7. That would be the equivalent of NinjaTrader 7 now being support through the year 2021.

Hi Ray,

thanks for yr reply.

1) the bottom line, now, is that you declared, here, that you (NT) are going to support NT7 until 2021 (early or late ?? = unkown). That brings us to 4-5 years from now. This is a crucial declaration. It confirms twice my ("...inaccurate") initial statement. Thanks a lot.
However dont you think that this declaration should have be written (long before or at least now) in your official NT website in order ALL NT traders to be awared of that ? Because not all NT traders are following this forum and particularly this thread.

2) In your initial sentence you never wrote the word "production", as you say now. But even this addition does not make much sense to me (and possibly to others).

3) About "my logic" : My logic says that a wise, serious and careful investor must know (as much as posssible, even as a reasonable "estimate") from the begining the PERIOD OF TIME in which his investment will last. In this particular case (NT8), and because we are talking about serious amount of money for investment, huge efforts, endless manhours, lot of time (personal dedication for years) and above all about people's LIFETIME, it is imperative (in my opinion) this NT8 trader/investor to have In advance this period of time information (or as early as possible) in order to be able decide if he will finally go on this investment or not. I cannot imagine another logic !

Thanks

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With due respect, why don't you just port your stuff over to NT8? I've seen threads mention scripts that will do the primary conversion for you automatically. You can't be mad at a software company for updating....maybe just stop complaining and start working on your fix.

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I'm not overly excited that at some point I'll have to convert my indicators and strategies but there is no need to panic as clearly NT is making this transition quite smoothly to provide enough time to allow NT7 traders to migrate over NT8. This happens all the time and I don't think there are many people who believed they could keep using their Commodore 64 forever... ;-)

Questions related to this (sorry if this was covered in another thread already), I've started to look for scripts or software tools that would help perform these conversations but haven't find anything yet. Any recommendations ?

Thanks

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