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Point and Figure Chart Types in NinjaTrader: Tick vs Volume
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Point and Figure Chart Types in NinjaTrader: Tick vs Volume

  #1 (permalink)
Elite Member
Boise, Idaho/USA
 
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Point and Figure Chart Types in NinjaTrader: Tick vs Volume

Hello All,

As we know, Point and Figure charts have their inherent benefits. I'm currently using them in NinjaTrader for ES, selecting a Box Size = 1 and a Reversal setting = 5. My currently chosen Base Period Type = Volume with a Base Period Value = 5000.

Questions:

1) How would choosing TICK as a Base Period Type in a Point and Figure chart have benefit compared to choosing Volume?

2) Knowing that Point and Figure charts are all about price movement and have nothing to do with time, why would Minutes be available as a choice for the Base Period Type?

and for that matter....

3) Please enlighten me as to why Base Period Type is even a part of Point and Figure charts to begin with?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

Best Regards,
Jim

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  #2 (permalink)
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Sherborne, United Kingdom
 
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Time period

Hi Jimbo,

Expect you've given up on this post/thread! If you're still monitoring it tho' here's my tuppence-worth despite my suspicions that the post was a 'Leading Question'!

Tick-based will be THE most accurate, but CPU/memory intensive.
Next best method is a time period 'snapshot' to take the High/Low or Close from so obviously the smaller the TF the closer to tick-based the chart will be. It's just a computer thing! I'll live with the compromise rather than try plotting an intraday chart of something as liquid as the ES say!!

Now for the exciting bit - Volume-based!
Hadn't done that before, tho' I use volume on PnF charts in the same way as VSA with bar charts. Just been and plotted today's ES action as a 500 Volume vs a 250 tick basis; both as 3x 0.25pts ( the latter being the closest visual match to the 500 Vol based one). As you would expect each gave some better and some worse signals, though the 500 volume was somewhat clearer overall.
I then added the OBV indie (have never synched with the Weis Wave but find the OBV passing useful) and on the 500 vol chart WOW!

Regards
SS

So a big thank you for provoking that little revelation!

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 -1812)
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  #3 (permalink)
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kuala lumpur malaysia
 
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hi all,

got a few questions on this:

(1) why is the volume figure not accurate in PnF...is it because the free EOD (Say on ninjatrader) is not based on tick bars? If that's the case, will I get 'accurate' up/down volume per the Xs and Os if say I subscribe to tick charts?
(2) @SisyphusStone I've tried what you do too but thinks that the volume is not reflective (I suspect that this is because of the time bars cut off vs tick bars)...is this correct?
(3) any other ways to plot PnF with proper volume in NT & MS? (stockcharts.com has PnF with volume but am not sure if that's accurate)

thanks

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  #4 (permalink)
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Hi DimpleBrain,

First-up, I don't know if you use Wyckoff principles in your trading methodology, but remember he used the bar chart with volume to assess Supply and Demand in the market and then used the PnF chart to assess the Cause built and thus the potential Effect to give a projection for the mark-up/down phase. His favorite trade was to buy the back-up to the Creek (LPS) or sell the back up to Broken Ice (LPSY). A count of the cause can then be taken at that level. There are numerous ways to take counts, both horizontal and vertical. I personally tend to find vertical counts more accurate for individual thrusts/waves and look for confirmations in horizontal counts as well as using them for a projection of the over-all move. On a 1x chart Wyckoff would use the row of the trading range with the greatest number of filled boxes in it and project effect from that level (NB: the count includes all the columns filled or not).

In my trading Wyckoff = Strategic and VSA = Tactical. Trading is about reading the supply and demand dynamic PERIOD. It's that simple and all the information you need is in the bars plus the volume. Of course the hard part is learning to read it with sufficiently consistent accuracy and that takes time and effort and practise.

I'm not sure what you mean about inaccurate volume and how yo are determining that it is in fact inaccurate. A PnF chart will always require a 'period' of some sort be it, a time interval, volume quantity, ticks etc., in order to determine if a price box has been filled or not.

When reading volume on a PF chart you have to remember that the next will always be in the opposite direction unlike a bar chart so I think of the columns more as waves. My primary chart will always be the bar chart and to be honest all the price-volume interaction information you need is there. Look at your PnF projection levels and where they correspond to on the bar chart and then look closely at the bars at that level and what they told you about the supply and demand dynamic at that time and thus whether it's a level the CM would logically try and defend.

If you've not read it I would strongly recommend you read Du Plessis' book on PnF - there is none better or more comprehensive that I've seen.

If you go to the CQG sit and search he recorded webinars in the 'News' section you will find a good one on PnF by Fenton Costello a couple of years ago. There is also one by Du Plessis on FXStreet (I think) that is worth watching.

If you want accurate PnF charts I would suggest you look at the following platforms:

Updata (UK/duPlessis) - also has the most functionality including projections. (~£100pcm)

CQG - IC is expensive (~$600pcm) but QTrader is competitive ($40pcm) and now has PnF. You have to be comfortable with only being able to view one chart at any one time though.

InvestorRT - an extremely powerful and reliable platform for about $70pcm.

BullsEyeBroker - a one-off payment (~$350) [I've noticed Dentist007 uses it - I have it but didn't like it for other reasons than its PnF functionality which is sound]

Those are your options as far as I've discovered, that plot accurate and correct 1x charts. If 1x capability is not a requirement then I would say SierraChart is, by a head and shoulders, the best value for money platform for it's functionality and stability, that's out there. Their data feed is also cheaper, but I've not tried it. Unless I somehow failed to set up Ninja PnF charts properly when I tried it, their PnF charts are garbage with the exception of any built on the current session ONLY.

Not sure if I've answered your questions, but I hope there might be something of help in the above.

Regards

SS

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 -1812)
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The following user says Thank You to SisyphusStone for this post:
 
  #5 (permalink)
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Hi SS,

Thanks for the info. Will check out the few things you mentioned
1. PnF- thats what i hope someone can explain to me. The volume accompanying pnf is usually not accurate. I think it's because of the cut off/ daily timestamp since pnf can turn at any time. (I even tried cumulative volume and set the reversal the same for both pnf n volume but it is still inaccurate somehow. Anyone has any idea?

2. Wyckoff himself plots p n f with volume. He does tape reading not bar chart reading (which is unavailable back then). Unless i m wrong on this. Many ppl claim to be a branch of wyckoff but few live to the mark. (I started with vsa, moved on to weis wave now trying to build this pnf with volume)

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  #6 (permalink)
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No Worries, Dimpledbrain,

Wyckoff certainly was a 'tape reader', but he also used bar, or 'vertical' charts in conjunction with PnF charts.

Personally, I would suggest focusing on the bar chart using Wyckoff to guide you as to the likely current phase of the market and then turn to VSA to analyse key bars in terms of the immediate supply and demand dynamic. You can then look to a PnF chart to give you a potential effect from the cause built. I wouldn't get too hung up on volume with PnF charts. It can be useful, but in most instances if you go back and look closely at your bar chart you will see the same information.

If one was a purist, one could argue that if you can follow order flow, ie supply and demand, accurately then you do not need such things as PnF counts since you will know from the order flow in which direction to be positioned in the market at any given point in time.

Try and keep it as simple as possible at all times; after all it is all simply about the dynamic of supply and demand - period!

Good luck,

SS

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 -1812)
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  #7 (permalink)
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dimpledbrain View Post
Hi SS,

Thanks for the info. Will check out the few things you mentioned
1. PnF- thats what i hope someone can explain to me. The volume accompanying pnf is usually not accurate. I think it's because of the cut off/ daily timestamp since pnf can turn at any time. (I even tried cumulative volume and set the reversal the same for both pnf n volume but it is still inaccurate somehow. Anyone has any idea?

2. Wyckoff himself plots p n f with volume. He does tape reading not bar chart reading (which is unavailable back then). Unless i m wrong on this. Many ppl claim to be a branch of wyckoff but few live to the mark. (I started with vsa, moved on to weis wave now trying to build this pnf with volume)

wyckoff made a lot vertical bar chart reading

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  #8 (permalink)
Sienna
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HI SisyphusStone ,

What is your opinion of PnF charts on Ninja 8? Do you consider it inferior to the other Platforms you mentioned. If yes, what, broadly speaking, is the draw back on NT8? I just bought a multi-licence version of NT8. Just as an aside: what about Tradovate for PnF?

Are you aware of any indies for PnF which would analyse the bars statistically,so that you could start to develop an approach? (This may be a beginner's question and 'no' I have yet to read Du Plessis' book).

thanks
Sienna

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  #9 (permalink)
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Hello

Is it possible to get candlesticks while using PNF charts? I find X & 0 on charts a bit confusing.

Thanks?

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  #10 (permalink)
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toughiee View Post
Hello

Is it possible to get candlesticks while using PNF charts? I find X & 0 on charts a bit confusing.

Thanks?

What the point ?
Is possible with SC and shoud be possible also with NT.

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You can learn about PNF here :
Point & Figure Charting [ChartSchool]

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