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NinjaTrader 7 under Wine
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NinjaTrader 7 under Wine

  #51 (permalink)
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@SilverFut you may try to create 3 additional Windows user accounts and launch 1 NT8 for each session.
As NT database and custom stuff are located in each user home directory it should work. In this case a single OQFeed process will be able to server all instances.

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  #52 (permalink)
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kypa View Post
First of all - congratulation for the quite awesome system!
Ninja 8 is still a beta I think - there should be issues with custom indicators. Are you having the same error codes in 7 and 8? If not - the problems will persist in whatever setup you make until either Ninja 8 is mature enough or the custom indicators are rewritten.
There should be no issues with this setup, only conflict is how the guests will share the GPU, but I believe Virtual Box can handle it nicely. You can even put the guests on the SSD, no real need of extra HDD.
The real question is why would you run four OSes simultaneously just for the sake of running four instances of one program? Why not use some sandboxing software - it will virtualise Ninja only, while all hardware is handled by a single kernel. You might even get away with IQFeed recognising it as multiple connections on same PC. And you'll have all Ninja windows freely rolling on your desktop, not window-in-a-window as with virtual OSes. You might be able to separate them better with virtual desktops (Win 8.1 option). There was some merge guest and host desktops function, but I'm not really sure on which hypervisor software I've seen it.
You may ask the programmer dude (or someone else) for advice on sandboxing software though, I don't really know much about that.



Thanks for the reply and the sandbox idea.

The programmer I was speaking with has no contact with trading software but he has worked a lot with different languages. Have been getting a lot of .NET errors with NT8 along with some others errors thrown in NT8 but the .NET ones seem to announce a cascade of all the other errors when they come - (if that makes sense). He tried to describe how .NET is used by a lot of other things in windows and how errors can happen but lost me pretty quick. His solution was try set the trading program up within a bare bones environment, that way its the only thing to worry about. Get all the charts setup with all indicators and take snapshots while its still stable, then every crash go back to the good snapshot and start again, it wouldn't be a fix but it would hopefully limit downtime. His idea with the virtual machine was to try and get the .NET that NT8 was going to use as segregated as possible.

Setting 3 separate ones up was a suggesting if possible just to get up and running now as the 3rd party all seem to run with NT8 by themselves, then I would have the luxury of time to address anything else that is stopping everything from playing together.

I have had different support people remote into the system and try to get it working. No one really seems to be able to put a finger on what exactly is the issue, so no real fix ends up coming about yet, but I'm currently working with someone from NT support trying to narrow it down.

I fully understand that NT8 is in beta and I do expect there to be teething problems and actively feedback on the beta forum whenever I can figure out how to replicate some issue. I would just hope that it got better with time, instead it seems to be getting worse in my instance. Very frustrating trying to describe what the problem is to NT support when it can't even be generated by certain steps so that it can be replicated.

Have been going through this in different guises for over 12mths now (NT7 and NT8) and I'm really getting to a point where I just have to start attacking it from a completely different angle as I can't afford to wait another 12mths in the hope a solution is found. I will leave the existing setup on the current HDD being used so that it can be maintained to work on with NT support but in the meantime want to look in different directions just in case it takes longer then expected to fix.

I will look into the sandbox idea, definitely sounds like a option.

I had most of the hardware and spare windows copies around so I sort of jumped at the idea of virtual machines when it was described to me. Major sticking point is always going to be the market data for multiple virtual machines but dreamed I might get lucky for once

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  #53 (permalink)
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sam028 View Post
@SilverFut you may try to create 3 additional Windows user accounts and launch 1 NT8 for each session.
As NT database and custom stuff are located in each user home directory it should work. In this case a single OQFeed process will be able to server all instances.



Thanks sam028. Would that be using just one OS on 1 HDD but have multiple user accounts accessing the same OS?
Will windows let me have all 3 user accounts open simultaneously so that each instance of NT can be interacted with?

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  #54 (permalink)
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SilverFut View Post
Thanks sam028. Would that be using just one OS on 1 HDD but have multiple user accounts accessing the same OS?
Will windows let me have all 3 user accounts open simultaneously so that each instance of NT can be interacted with?

Yes, that's the idea.
I didn't tried myself and you'll maybe see some issues (this can't work with NT7 for example, as it's checking if there is another Ninjatrader.exe process running).
It won't be very easy to use as you'll have to swap from a user session to another one, but worth a try.

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  #55 (permalink)
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sam028 View Post
Yes, that's the idea.
I didn't tried myself and you'll maybe see some issues (this can't work with NT7 for example, as it's checking if there is another Ninjatrader.exe process running).
It won't be very easy to use as you'll have to swap from a user session to another one, but worth a try.

Years ago I used a sandbox with NT7 no problem, with multiple installation directories

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  #56 (permalink)
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SilverFut View Post

Setting 3 separate ones up was a suggesting if possible just to get up and running now as the 3rd party all seem to run with NT8 by themselves, then I would have the luxury of time to address anything else that is stopping everything from playing together.

What is the problem actually, I mean what happens that should not happen? I'm asking out of curiosity, I most probably won't be able to help about it.
Are you discussing this in the Ninja forums (where I can check it out) or in private communication with Support?
Can you share the problematic codes (if they aren't something paid or private of course)?

Sam's idea to run it in multiple accounts is also good, there exists software that enables simultaneous logins with visual output on same videocard in Windows.

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  #57 (permalink)
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Sorry I didn't get back to everyone sooner. Been a bit of a mission to get the computer set up and running again. Started Friday night, added in extra SSD for 2nd OS, forgot it had Win 7 already installed and rebooted with both OS's connected, Win 7 corrupted the existing Win 8.1. Didn't worry to much as I was going to switch everything over to UEFI BIOS and GPT format anyway. but was trying to avoid the mistake just in case I needed to revert.

That should have been the queue to wake me up to the troubles I was soon to run into.

Seems a lot of people run into issues when getting UEFI BIOS going, let alone UEFI and multi boot.

Long story short, got one OS to load but was unstable and constantly crashed, other OS wouldn't even complete install process. After 3 days of going around in circles, found a random post saying to leave Secure boot keys disabled and gave it a try. 1st OS worked and then installed 2nd from within it and Windows mapped out the boot manager automatically.

So, now I have set up 1 SSD with Win 8.1 as a general use desktop, 2nd SSD with Win 8.1 Pro for main work desktop, VMware Workstation running a Virtual machine on a separate HDD running Win 8.1 that is purely for trading platforms.

Have to say, VMware Workstation is great so far, easy to get up and running and its as easy to switch between desktops as minimizing and maximizing a browser.





Big Mike View Post
Years ago I used a sandbox with NT7 no problem, with multiple installation directories

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Hi Big Mike, thanks for the reply. Can you provide a few more ideas about how to set up NT with multiple installation directories to access from a sandbox?

I have Sandboxie and I can get a licensed NT8 to open within Sandboxie, I can also open a 2nd instance of unlicensed NT8 to open (unsure if it will actually run correctly but) using the same desktop shortcut but it runs outside of Sandboxie. I only need 1 instance of NT8 to be licensed as only 1 of the tool sets requires the NT8 3rd party licensing process.

I'm guessing this is not the ideal set up as both instances will be running off the same Documents>Ninjatrader 8 files and will result in the same problems accumulating that I have already been experiencing or even more problems that I'm not aware of yet.

I have tried to run the NinjaTrader.Installer again but it just comes up with the "change, repair or remove installation"

I went looking for the NinjaTrader.exe file and came to the files shown in attachment : NT Sandbox 2.

Are these the correct file/s or are there more or different ones?

Once the correct files are renamed, it should then be right to run the NinjaTrader.Installer again and when prompted for installation directory, choose the next folder to install the 2nd copy of NT8 into? See attachment : NT Sandbox 1.

Or can I not run the NT installer again and have to do it a different way?

Attached Thumbnails
NinjaTrader 7 under Wine-nt8-sandbox-1.png   NinjaTrader 7 under Wine-nt8-sandbox-2.png  
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  #58 (permalink)
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sam028 View Post
Yes, that's the idea.
I didn't tried myself and you'll maybe see some issues (this can't work with NT7 for example, as it's checking if there is another Ninjatrader.exe process running).
It won't be very easy to use as you'll have to swap from a user session to another one, but worth a try.



Hi sam028, Thanks for the idea. Are you thinking of something like this
Enable Concurrent Desktop Sessions in Windows - TechSpot
Multiple Remote Desktop Sessions For The Same User | My Tec Bits.

In the comments section of the first link down the bottom, it looks like M$ are actively trying to patch whenever its done that way.

I also read in comments that it wasn't allowing people access to the same user account, but would allow concurrent user account access (remotely) and not boot the user at the terminal. Its sounding similar to what you mentioned. Just not sure if it would actually work for concurrent user account access on the same computer.

Is this along the lines of what you were thinking?

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  #59 (permalink)
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kypa View Post
What is the problem actually, I mean what happens that should not happen? I'm asking out of curiosity, I most probably won't be able to help about it.
Are you discussing this in the Ninja forums (where I can check it out) or in private communication with Support?
Can you share the problematic codes (if they aren't something paid or private of course)?

Sam's idea to run it in multiple accounts is also good, there exists software that enables simultaneous logins with visual output on same videocard in Windows.



What are the problems.... Where do I start

I have 3 paid indicator suites. Each one will work on NT8 and doesn't throw errors that I can see. This has been tested in conjunction with NT support.

But when all 3 are used, in various combinations, NT8 will initially start throwing .NET errors. From there, it degenerates into a randomly occurring range of other errors ("unable to clear cache" is a favorite), freezes and crashes. There have even been some weird "ghosting" that seems to tear through the chart background of random charts at random times, one time I caught a glimpse of a scalene triangle shape (maybe 100mm x 60mm at its highest point, offset on about a 30deg angle from horizontal), solid red, flash onto one chart and then was gone as quick as it was there, another time, multiple small triangles end to end all the way across the visible chart, 12-15mm long x 6-8mm high, along 3 horizontal lines (prob 10 horizontal lines in total visible on the chart at the time). Again, flashed onto the chart, then gone just as quick. These have never been screen grabbed, its over to quick, I've only ever caught it twice visually because I happened to be looking at the specific chart it appeared on at the time.

The errors that NT8 has thrown have been screenshot and reported to NT support over the last 4-5 weeks that they have been checking what it is, along with log and trace files.

Support have remote logged in a couple of times, fully deleted NT8, fresh installed a couple of times. I have also done the same thing several times and even went as far as rebuilding NT8 completely from scratch, not importing anything saved from a previous NT8 install.

They have run the setup themselves on virtual machine and came back after nearly a week and said they had figured out what it was, set my machine up leaving certain 3rd party tools off, logged out and considered the issue addressed.

I saved and shut down the machine, logged back in and connected, .NET error straight off the bat. Same problem all over again. This snowballed into other errors and glitches bringing it back to the same problems experienced from the start.


Support then packaged up the tools into individual workspaces and got me to swap in one indicator/workspace at a time separate from everything else with a CLEAN workspace to swap in after errors thrown. Had to shut down NT8, swap workspace files, restart. On the 2nd indicator to try, NT8 threw a error and I decided to double check it, run the clean and tried again, came back fine. Then decided I should really run each one 3 times to rule out false positives and it then turned out that each and every workspace including the CLEAN labeled one, threw errors randomly.


Then pretty much ended the conversation with we figured out a minimal amount of indicators that will work on your machine and how to get back up and running fast (aka use task manager to force shutdown frozen NT8 and restart), this may be the best we can do. Can't replicate at our end, wait until beta 12 and let us know if problem persists then.




My guess from the way it ended suddenly is that there was a issue identified in the platform itself. Prior to the individual testing of each workspace, they were pretty adamant it was a 3rd party indicator problem that was the root cause and were happy enough to try figure out who was at blame so it could be addressed. Then all of a sudden, seem to run into a brick wall.

It would just be nice to get a actual straight answer. If there is a issue with the platform, I get that, its still beta but not getting a clear answer leaves me unable to move in a direction to try and get something working for my needs. That's why I'm trying to think outside the box now, I tried waiting for the "next" platform and the "next" beta that was sure to fix any issues I had for about 15mths now.

After reading a bit of this thread, I hope its not history repeating.
https://futures.io/ninjatrader/980-truth-ninjatrader.html

NT8 has some REAL potential. As long as its built on a solid foundation.



So, the only way forward that I can see, is to run each indicator suite on its own platform to stop whatever conflict all 3 together cause to surface.

Anything that jumps out to you that has been missed that I should try if/when it starts happening again?

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  #60 (permalink)
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SilverFut View Post
Hi sam028, Thanks for the idea. Are you thinking of something like this
Enable Concurrent Desktop Sessions in Windows - TechSpot
Multiple Remote Desktop Sessions For The Same User | My Tec Bits.

In the comments section of the first link down the bottom, it looks like M$ are actively trying to patch whenever its done that way.

I also read in comments that it wasn't allowing people access to the same user account, but would allow concurrent user account access (remotely) and not boot the user at the terminal. Its sounding similar to what you mentioned. Just not sure if it would actually work for concurrent user account access on the same computer.

Is this along the lines of what you were thinking?

I would avoid multiple sessions with the same user, it's quickly very confusing and it won't work for Ninja.

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