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UniRenko, Universal Renko Bar Type
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UniRenko, Universal Renko Bar Type

  #301 (permalink)
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mrmuggins View Post
Hi @aligator

Are you sure that price did not retrace back to those price points of the wicks as you have illustrated on your first screenshot? I did a quick analysis of GC, using the same setting of 1:10:1 and then drew a line across the wicks, setting the property of the line to display on all charts.

I then opened a small range chart and a 30 second chart, and lo and behold, price did retrace back to where it was showing on the Unirenko chart. So unless I am missing something, I would have to agree with the DTW51, that the wicks of the Unirenko was real price action.

However, as you understand the construction of these bars far better than I will ever do, then you are probably right, and I have just wasted 30 minutes with my analysis. Nb, is this the same for the Better Renko bars also, as I use the wicks in my analysis when taking a trade with the Better Renko chart?

Here are the screenshots

Regards,


Dudley

@mrmuggins,

The advantage of UniRenko or RenKo type bars in general is they remove the smaller noise and smooth out major swings and help to vividly show the highs and lows of the swings. These highs and lows would be the same no matter what type of bar we have, as you have shown in your charts. They just are more obvious in UniRenko bars. Smaller swings or retracements between these high and lows will of course be at the same levels no matter what bar type we look at and it is no magic or a unique characteristic of UnRenko bars.

If one changes the 1-10-1 to 1-10-2, 1-10-3, 4, 5, and so on the same retracements or minor swings will still show up regardless of the decreasing and smaller size of the wick. The wick in a 30 second bar or a 1 min bar is a true indication of the market behavior and psychology. A long wick at the low of 30 second bar means the supply is drying out, there are more buyers than sellers, and lower price levels are rejected. The bigger the size of the wick the more of a potential reversal (doji). Where as in a uniRenko bar the size of the wick is only a byproduct of choosing an Offset. The retracements will still be there regardless of the size of the UniRenko wick. So, the UniRenko wick tells us nothing about price action, just shows where there was a minor retracement.

Some traders use UniRenko or Renko type bars because they are clean and appealing. These type of bars are simply measured volatility size bars and can be useful for trading breakouts and brackets. They do not provide the information needed for determining price action other than collectively show clear swing highs and lows. A Unirenko bar with a long wick can not be interpreted like a Doji for price action. One needs to have real OHLC for price action. That is the point I have been trying to make. Renko type bars can not individually be price action bars.

It would be a challenge, if not impossible, for anyone to use UniRenko for price action trading like Al Brooks, Mac, or others that trade pure price action with minutes bars.

A lot more than I wanted to discuss and defend the obvious. All said, I use UNiRenko along with other bar types for trading Trend, momentum, and reversals quite successfully without considering price action at all. But when it comes to trading ES, price action and a 5 minutes chart perform well. IMHO UniRenko, by its nature, is not a proper tool for trading price action.

Cheers!


Last edited by aligator; February 22nd, 2014 at 04:26 AM.
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  #302 (permalink)
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Ok I cant resist this one anymore LOLLL

Whoever is saying that the wick on the UniR does not represent PA clearly do not understand this bar type.

In terms of whats real or otherwise, there are only two things to be mindful of when it comes to these UniRenkos or any other renko for that matter:
1. The UR open can very often be synthetic. Note I said very often and not ALWAYS.
2. Filler Bars. If you dial up the appropriate settings it is very easy to wind up with a load of filler bars. These fillers are totally synthetic and will all have the exact same time stamp. Im not going to start explaining where these come from DYOR.
Thats it. The rest is real.

For those who dont think the wick is real and believe that during the construction of that particular bar the price never actually printed there, then where do you think the wick came from?

I didnt dream it up and the UniR didnt dream it up and I dont think it was the wick-stork...!!!

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  #303 (permalink)
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Price Action verses Price Movement verses tower of babel


I think we are all sort of saying the same thing. The facts are that the UniRenko wicks/tails (shadows, whatever) are indeed the direct result of price movement. The problem we are having is the concept, terminology and use of "price action". Our friend @aligator is right on about the psychology of wicks/tails on traditional candlesticks and the "price action" that those represent as described by so many others. When you transfer those concepts of "traditional" candlesticks to unirenko bars, you are wrong.

That said we all need to acknowledge that UniRenko bars, depending on settings, represent price fantasy, as we can each individually shape to our own needs, which is what is fantastic about Unirenko. So when we enter our bar settings, it is with the understanding that we are subscribing to a new view of price movement. In this world no one is wrong and no one is right, it is all about what appeals to the eye of the individual trader.

So again the bottom line is lets not use "price action" when we are really talking about price movement visualized in the UniRenko world.

I can imagine the same discussion was held when heiken-ashi was first viewed...

Regarding "filler Bars", each bar is created when price movement exceeds the Tick Trend set in the dataseries. During period of rapid price movement (news for example) you can have many unirenko bars with the exact same time because the time resolution of the bars is not fine enough to show the millisecond price movement changes

At any rate, we are all uniRenko fans and I am so appreciative of having this bar type to use for my trading.

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  #304 (permalink)
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Tasker_182 View Post
I think we are all sort of saying the same thing. The facts are that the UniRenko wicks/tails (shadows, whatever) are indeed the direct result of price movement. The problem we are having is the concept, terminology and use of "price action". Our friend @aligator is right on about the psychology of wicks/tails on traditional candlesticks and the "price action" that those represent as described by so many others. When you transfer those concepts of "traditional" candlesticks to unirenko bars, you are wrong.

That said we all need to acknowledge that UniRenko bars, depending on settings, represent price fantasy, as we can each individually shape to our own needs, which is what is fantastic about Unirenko. So when we enter our bar settings, it is with the understanding that we are subscribing to a new view of price movement. In this world no one is wrong and no one is right, it is all about what appeals to the eye of the individual trader.

So again the bottom line is lets not use "price action" when we are really talking about price movement visualized in the UniRenko world.

I can imagine the same discussion was held when heiken-ashi was first viewed...

Regarding "filler Bars", each bar is created when price movement exceeds the Tick Trend set in the dataseries. During period of rapid price movement (news for example) you can have many unirenko bars with the exact same time because the time resolution of the bars is not fine enough to show the millisecond price movement changes

At any rate, we are all uniRenko fans and I am so appreciative of having this bar type to use for my trading.

Hi Tasker

You say: "that UniRenko bars, depending on settings, represent price fantasy"
This can be said of each and every bar type and setting so to say it in the context that it only applies to the UR is incorrect. In other words, oh now that there 1 min doesn't look too pretty so let try a 5 min. Oops that 5 min is a disaster so lets try potatoes....ahhh nooo these potatoes are rotten so im gonna try whatever....and on and on and round and round the fantasy goes....

Filler bars can appear that can have nothing to do with time resolution. Lets say there is a plain ordinary price gap thats outside the realms of the UR setting that the user has dialled in... the UR is then forced to print a rake of fillers to patch over that gap. If you open a 1 tick chart you will see that gaps of all shapes and sizes are going on almost all the time.

However in your opening para you are bang on and thats what the original question was.... The wicks ARE very real. If someone wants to really prove it to themselves they can just keep placing a limit order behind the open of the bars and wait for the wick to get you filled. Very real. I just hope you wind up on the right side of the market.

Always great to see this UniR gets everyone revved up...

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  #305 (permalink)
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Bosch777 View Post
Hi Tasker

You say: "that UniRenko bars, depending on settings, represent price fantasy"
This can be said of each and every bar type and setting so to say it in the context that it only applies to the UR is incorrect. In other words, oh now that there 1 min doesn't look too pretty so let try a 5 min. Oops that 5 min is a disaster so lets try potatoes....ahhh nooo these potatoes are rotten so im gonna try whatever....and on and on and round and round the fantasy goes....

Ahhh but see the cow pie was there and you just stepped in it, LOL. @aligator point was that traditional candle sticks show complete and true price movement from one end to the other whereas Unirenko has false open. So a 1 minute candle is true as is a 5 minute candle. Unirenko bar is fantasy and there is nothing wrong with it as long as you know.


Bosch777 View Post
Filler bars can appear that can have nothing to do with time resolution. Lets say there is a plain ordinary price gap thats outside the realms of the UR setting that the user has dialled in... the UR is then forced to print a rake of fillers to patch over that gap. If you open a 1 tick chart you will see that gaps of all shapes and sizes are going on almost all the time.

I can only agree with the observation that when price exceeds the Tick Trend set, a new unirenko bar will print. Interestingly, what I have observed that comes close is when the session times change and there are gaps and they do show gaps on the Unirenko chart. Do they not show on yours? Here is a chart from TF the other evening/day, big gap between day/evening session. Should there have been filler bars there or is it different when sessions begin/end?

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  #306 (permalink)
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aligator View Post
For UniRenko, "Offset" really serves no purpose other than makes bars look nice and un-weird. A nice, clean, and less confusing way to show the bars is to use Box for chart style. All really one cares about is the breakout.

Here is an example how it would look on my chart.

Cheers!

Hi @ aligator

I am curious to know, at which one of following breakouts you enter the trade:

(1) Breakout at Hi / Low of the reversal bar indicator - or-
(2) Breakout of candle body Hi / Low ( for instance, entering Long at High of Red Candle)

Thanks in advance

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Tasker_182 View Post
I agree, Offset is all about appearance but I disagree with the box instead of candlesticks. The reversal bars are usually good entries but the wicks and tails (both are white in the picture) offer additional entry points.

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The real problem with wicks Tails is it sucks into the trade in the opposite direction, if we enter the trade at the low or high of the candle body.
To get into the trade after retracement, at least we need to wait for three candles after reversal candle print, or else it makes two / three candles in the new direction and turns back in the other direction.
Do any body have solution to avoid such loosing trades using unirenko candles.

Thanks

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sands View Post
Sure. My bad I meant I weight a trend continuation with say 4 ticks (so the market must continue to move up 4 ticks to create a new brick) and for a reversal it must move 150 % in the opposite direction so 6 ticks. This filters / smooths things a little more. Then once it's reversed it only has to move 100% eg 4 ticks.

@sands:
So, you wait for four more candles after reversal bar ( assuming that you use 'T=1' & BODY RANGE=4?
Thanks

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Raj1 View Post
The real problem with wicks Tails is it sucks into the trade in the opposite direction, if we enter the trade at the low or high of the candle body.
To get into the trade after retracement, at least we need to wait for three candles after reversal candle print, or else it makes two / three candles in the new direction and turns back in the other direction.
Do any body have solution to avoid such loosing trades using unirenko candles.

Thanks

Some folks look at those as opportunities to get into the existing trend. These are not small bars, they are 20 tick reversal, 10 tick body, so when price moves out of the body it has to travel another 10 ticks to fully reverse. As you can see on the chart i posted there are only a few wicks/tails meaning price resumed in the trend direction. A strategy is to (in the case of an uptrend), wait for a pullback (wait for a tail to form), place a buy order inside the body, place a stop at the reversal point. If price resumes the trend you are in early and price will normally shoot up a number of tics. If instead price reverses, you are in on a reversal bar and the start of a new trend.

Obviously you have to pay attention to overall trend direction, market conditions, news events, etc.

Hope that helps.

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Last edited by Tasker_182; February 28th, 2014 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Clarity
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  #310 (permalink)
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Raj1 View Post
Hi @ aligator

I am curious to know, at which one of following breakouts you enter the trade:

(1) Breakout at Hi / Low of the reversal bar indicator - or-
(2) Breakout of candle body Hi / Low ( for instance, entering Long at High of Red Candle)

Thanks in advance

@Raj1,

We are talking about volatility breakout with UniRenko bars. Therefore I would enter the trade on the breakout of the high and low. CANDLE BODY HI/Low is meaningless, that is why I use Box instead of candle.

That said, under certain setups, I may enter aggressive trades earlier before the breakout, as seen in my trades on CL this morning. However, must be willing to take at least 20 ticks or more stop risk.

Cheers.

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