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Windows 8 and NinjaTrader

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  #1 (permalink)
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Windows 8 RTM is out in the wild.

Anyone running NinjaTrader on it yet and can report back?

Any issues? Any adjustments needed?

In particular, I'd like to hear from users running multiple monitors. Can the metro interface be disabled entirely and give us a traditional desktop and start menu?

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  #2 (permalink)
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Not yet. It is not out in the wild either - currently it is a faked setup ISO (merged) - noone knows whether it is fully the correct one.

But it is only a couple of more days. I already got access to my activation keys for Windows 8 and Server 2012, both MAK (Multi Activation) and KMS (Key Management Server). I expect the ISO files to show up on monday for download (legally - I have access to the MS repositories due to SPLA status).

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NetTecture View Post
Not yet. It is not out in the wild either - currently it is a faked setup ISO (merged) - noone knows whether it is fully the correct one.

But it is only a couple of more days. I already got access to my activation keys for Windows 8 and Server 2012, both MAK (Multi Activation) and KMS (Key Management Server). I expect the ISO files to show up on monday for download (legally - I have access to the MS repositories due to SPLA status).

cool, let us know what you find out.. we should have a pretty good idea of what to expect from the previews that were released.. i think i posted about it awhile ago when the first one was out but im not sure.. has anyone had any problems with NT7 on the win8 previews?

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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  #4 (permalink)
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You can convert between traditional desktop and metro using small utilities like w8devpre smt.

For multiple monitor users, one big change is that now we have taskbar on each of our monitors, not just the main one.

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  #5 (permalink)
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no show stoppers here so far. one thing is that title bar text is center aligned, so some things like SuperDOM title can be unreadable, but that is pretty minor

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I upgraded my Windows 7 (Ultimate) to Windows 8 Pro (RTM) today and I noticed that none of my third party (Purchased) indicators work. I have not tried any multi monitor testing.
The stock indicators and those that were downloaded from NT Forum work fine. So far it appears to be only the indicators that requires activation from third party vendors.

Benji

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Benji View Post
I upgraded my Windows 7 (Ultimate) to Windows 8 Pro (RTM) today and I noticed that none of my third party (Purchased) indicators work. I have not tried any multi monitor testing.
The stock indicators and those that were downloaded from NT Forum work fine. So far it appears to be only the indicators that requires activation from third party vendors.

Benji

Interesting.
Anything in the NT log tab ?

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The following was the official response that I just received from NT Support:

Hello,



Thank you for your note.



Windows 8 is not supported at this time. NinjaTrader will install, but various 3rd party features such as certain brokerage technologies and the 3rd party indicator DLL protection methods are not supported at this time.


We can expect support for this closer to the final release of Windows 8.



Please let me know if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,
Matthew
NinjaTrader Customer Service

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Benji View Post
The following was the official response that I just received from NT Support:

Hello,



Thank you for your note.



Windows 8 is not supported at this time. NinjaTrader will install, but various 3rd party features such as certain brokerage technologies and the 3rd party indicator DLL protection methods are not supported at this time.


We can expect support for this closer to the final release of Windows 8.



Please let me know if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,
Matthew
NinjaTrader Customer Service

Interesting. Windows 8 is officially released for quite some time now - I downloaded my LEGAL copy from the MS licensing servers more than a week ago. Everyone with a developer account (MSDN) got it even earlier than me (I got it on the 16th). This weekend I was shutting down my bridgehead server in Chicago in order to reinstall the hypervisor with the RTM code of - Windows Server 2012. Pretty much the only ones NOT having access to Windows 8 these days are people that need to get it in a shop, all the others got it for quite some time.

Well Looks like anyone using Ninja has to wait quite some time now - until maybe Ninja 8 - for them to support Windows 8? I hate to say, this is quite disappointing. I was looking forward to upgrade my whole infrastructure including the trading machines.

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NetTecture View Post
Interesting. Windows 8 is officially released for quite some time now - I downloaded my LEGAL copy from the MS licensing servers more than a week ago. Everyone with a developer account (MSDN) got it even earlier than me (I got it on the 16th). This weekend I was shutting down my bridgehead server in Chicago in order to reinstall the hypervisor with the RTM code of - Windows Server 2012. Pretty much the only ones NOT having access to Windows 8 these days are people that need to get it in a shop, all the others got it for quite some time.

Well Looks like anyone using Ninja has to wait quite some time now - until maybe Ninja 8 - for them to support Windows 8? I hate to say, this is quite disappointing. I was looking forward to upgrade my whole infrastructure including the trading machines.

this is tarded... ^^^^^^ how much do you really want them to do? 99.9% of their user base wont use win8 till its released(oct 26th) which they will prolly make good on.. im guessing the majority of users after that still wont be using it by the 1st of the year.. how much do you really expect them to do? if you read around there really isnt any problems with NT on win8 right now anyways..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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Szczecin
 
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this is tarded... ^^^^^^ how much do you really want them to do? 99.9% of their user base wont use win8 till its released(oct 26th) which they will prolly make good on.. im guessing the majority of users after that still wont be using it by the 1st of the year.. how much do you really expect them to do? if you read around there really isnt any problems with NT on win8 right now anyways..

Maybe updating the technological bases occasionally. The problem would be less if they would have upgraded to .NET 4.0 2 years go or so, and if they would fix the "small amount" of installer glitches they have, installing files in locations MS has not planned them to do, among others.

Not really sure. I do software for a living for customers, and regardless of product plan, we always test even against beta versions to make sure.

Btw, you are TOTALLY off regarding their customers. There is this little detail called "buying a computer". Guess what computers in most shops will have starting October 26th?

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NetTecture View Post
Maybe updating the technological bases occasionally. The problem would be less if they would have upgraded to .NET 4.0 2 years go or so, and if they would fix the "small amount" of installer glitches they have, installing files in locations MS has not planned them to do, among others.

Not really sure. I do software for a living for customers, and regardless of product plan, we always test even against beta versions to make sure.

Btw, you are TOTALLY off regarding their customers. There is this little detail called "buying a computer". Guess what computers in most shops will have starting October 26th?

i dunno man.. works fine for me.. also, they might even have a version 'compatible' with win8 before then, but im not going to expect anything out of them any soon than before its released.. since thats 2 months away i wouldnt get your panties in a bunch..

been a long day, running on fumes..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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i dunno man.. works fine for me.. also, they might even have a version 'compatible' with win8 before then, but im not going to expect anything out of them any soon than before its released.. since thats 2 months away i wouldnt get your panties in a bunch..

been a long day, running on fumes..

It IS released

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It IS released

name one piece of trading software that the devs of it have signed off on win8 'compatibility'... i still stand by my prediction of their user base not having over 50% win8 running by 1st-o-year.. #truth

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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madLyfe View Post
name one piece of trading software that the devs of it have signed off on win8 'compatibility'... i still stand by my prediction of their user base not having over 50% win8 running by 1st-o-year.. #truth

MC apparently.

Friend of family (son in law once removed, sells for MS) showed me Windows 8 on his smart phone a few months ago. Knowing what it is I do he said I probably didn't want it--just reconfigures the desktop and a few other things (he said)--good enough for me. It's the "few other things" rather than the desktop that has me worried--Windows 7 is dumbed down enough without insulating me even more from machine code. MC claims no issues with it but altogether no interest in upgrading at this time. I'm sure NT will test soon enough.

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MC apparently.

Friend of family (son in law once removed, sells for MS) showed me Windows 8 on his smart phone a few months ago. Knowing what it is I do he said I probably didn't want it--just reconfigures the desktop and a few other things (he said)--good enough for me. It's the "few other things" rather than the desktop that has me worried--Windows 7 is dumbed down enough without insulating me even more from machine code. MC claims no issues with it but altogether no interest in upgrading at this time. I'm sure NT will test soon enough.

i have had NT on win8 for a couple months now and havnt had any issues..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

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madLyfe View Post
i have had NT on win8 for a couple months now and havnt had any issues..

That makes 2 trading apps that run under Win 8

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That makes 2 trading apps that run under Win 8

Are you using any third party indicators that require activation based on either the machine id or a the provider server?

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No.

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I had a customer call me yesterday asking for a new key as he'd moved to Windows 8.

I figured I needed to bite the bullet @ that point as I'd like to know the issues before the customers do.

It all runs fine, I did lose my Ninja database when I moved but not the workspaces. Actually worked out nicely to be honest.

I'm not sure about performance yet but will update after a week or so...

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OK - it's probably worth an update.

On my setup, Ninja & windows 8 are not getting along very well.

When I start Ninja, it takes several minutes to start up during which time it has one of my processors hogged.

Of course, this could be down to my code which is also running on top of Ninja so I need to investigate that.

Anyone else got this?

Cheers

Pete

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Benji View Post
Are you using any third party indicators that require activation based on either the machine id or a the provider server?

I have customers on Windows 8 going via DLLs secured with NinjaTraders vendor licensing. That all seems fine.

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Have not seen that here Pete, runnning it on dedicated machine to test out but so far getting along well including some vendor license calls done. It's more me getting used to Win8 than anything else.

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I am running NT on Windows 8 and everything seems to be working fine. It is on my backtesting machine. I don't trade live on this particular machine so I can't comment to that aspect but as far as backtesting etc everything is working. All my strategies imported fine and load with no issues. I actually find things including NT load faster on windows 8.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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liquidcci View Post
I am running NT on Windows 8 and everything seems to be working fine. It is on my backtesting machine. I don't trade live on this particular machine so I can't comment to that aspect but as far as backtesting etc everything is working. All my strategies imported fine and load with no issues. I actually find things including NT load faster on windows 8.

thanks for the info!

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liquidcci View Post
I am running NT on Windows 8 and everything seems to be working fine. It is on my backtesting machine. I don't trade live on this particular machine so I can't comment to that aspect but as far as backtesting etc everything is working. All my strategies imported fine and load with no issues. I actually find things including NT load faster on windows 8.

I also are running on Win 8 Pro for backtesting - no issues at all with NT on Win 8. I also concur that it runs faster than Win 7 (not amazingly faster, but certainly quicker for me).

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The day before black Friday I picked up a new dell Inspirion laptop at Best Buy because they have a 30 day money back on that item . The new Dell has 8 gigs of ram which is double the ram I have in my old Inspirion and it also has a quad core and my old has just a double core . My old dell has always has a fresh copy of windows 7 that I install mysell because I format my hard drive about every 5-7 months to keep it running fast as possible.
Anyway after 5 days of using my new Dell and after removing all the bloatware I could find it actually has at least double the lag to open and close programs as my old Dell has. The next test for me was to run some walk forward optimizing in Ninjatrader, I do think it ran it a tiny bit faster although on a few of the more complex strategies It would still freeze my computer and I would have to do the old cont/alt/del method to close down Ninjatrader.
I decided well I gave windows 8 five days to wow me but it made me hate it so now its time to put a clean non OEM copy of Windows 7 in this new laptop and see if it the lag disappears. Found out you cant format your hardrive and install 7 once windows 8 has been installed there due to the new interface in it. Since I cant re-format with 7 and windows 8 is such a recource hog I will be returning my new Dell.

Quantismo

I looked all over the web for some trick to install 7 to replace 8 if anyone has done it let me know
Thanks

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I looked all over the web for some trick to install 7 to replace 8 if anyone has done it let me know
Thanks

If it makes you feel better my other old computers (4) running WindowsXP outperform my newer i7 monster computer hands down. Seems like Windows gets worse with every new revision.

I am seriously thinking about buying an Apple desktop, although everything I have is MS material.

Cheers!

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Well my performance issue disappeared, so I'm not sure what it was.

Ninja & windows 8 is running just peach now.

I don't even miss the start button any more...

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DionysusToast View Post
Well my performance issue disappeared, so I'm not sure what it was.

Ninja & windows 8 is running just peach now.

I don't even miss the start button any more...

Do you see any benefit to windows 8 over windows 7?

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#1 makes Bill Gates piles more cash..
#2 makes the kids that stare at apps all day feel warm and fuzzy..
#3 for those that have the touch screen they can feel like they have the worlds biggest phone...
#4 makes me appreciate windows 7 alot more !!


hehe, just the few I could think of off hand...

Quantismo

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futuretrader View Post
Do you see any benefit to windows 8 over windows 7?

hmmmm - not really so far. Task Manager is nicer...

I sort of like the Metro interface, having your apps on a pop up screen you can open with one click.

Other than that, it's windows 7 with lipstick.

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DionysusToast View Post
hmmmm - not really so far. Task Manager is nicer...

I sort of like the Metro interface, having your apps on a pop up screen you can open with one click.

Other than that, it's windows 7 with lipstick.

More like a big boobjob.

* Much faster text Rendering
* Hyper-V rocks Finally also on Client.
* Storage pools. Great.

Lot of under the hood Advantages. Moved all my Servers over except some virtual machiens that insist on 2008R2 (TMG mostly - my Firewall). Never looked back

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I have clean installed Win 8 Pro from Win 7 last night.
Despite of some negative reviews on desktop friendliness I like Win 8.

Here are few links to make look & feel like Windows 7:

Classic Shell | Free software downloads at SourceForge.net

WinAero: Downloads / Software / Tiny Windows Borders

WinAero: Aero8Tuner

WinAero: Close Threshold for Metro Apps


How to make Windows 8 look like Windows 7 | Reviews | CNET UK

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I have used AEOMI Patition Assistant for cloning to use Samsung 120GB SSD840 as System partittion (65GB) and Documents partition for strictly for Ninja(45GB). For me EASEUS didn't clone correctly.
However AEOMI's migrate OS to SSD ( difffernt drive) worked perfectly.


Here is AEOMI link:

How to Migrate System to another hard drive (SSD/HDD) without Reinstalling Windows? | Windows 8 Forums

Aomei Partition Assistant Home Edition - CNET Download.com

Free Magic Partition Software for PC and Server OS- AOMEI Partition Assistant

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  #36 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
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My initial review of Windows 8 was I liked it. But after using it a few months I really kind of hate it. Metro Apps are worthless on a anything other than a phone or tablet so I really just use it like Windows 7 but it has quite a few annoying things even on desktop part of the interface that get in the way more than help. My recommendation is if you are on Windows 7 stay on Windows 7

I use some programs to make things more like windows 7. But kind of dumb to buy windows 8 then use software to make like windows 7 by removing some of the irritations. I think Microsoft really messed up by not allowing irritating things to be turned off without third party software.

Sorry for overuse of the word irritation but I am not kidding there are some real irritants in windows 8.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #37 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Paris
 
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Posts: 1,247 since Oct 2009
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Actually you can make Windows 8 look like Windows 2000 (best UI ever ;-)) by modifying WindowsMetrics key and Fonts key.
I can detail more if interested.

Left: W8 with ClearType
Middle : W8 without Cleartype
Right : W8 with WindowsMetrics and Fonts keys modified .


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  #38 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: AMP/CQG
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Here is ...... but uncheck the box to enable showing in video.......


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  #39 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
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Trading: CL
 
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Creating Win 8 ISO files in USB Flash Memory stick,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no more cd burn,,,,,,,,

Make Bootable ISO File of Windows 8 Pro After Upgrading

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  #40 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
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I use these in win 8.

Downloads - Compact Tray Meter

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  #41 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraCharts
Trading: ES, 6E
 
Posts: 123 since May 2011
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I just want to share my experience.

I have a laptop which I upgraded from Win 7 to Win 8 and I can't install NinjaTrader 7. The problem is that I need to enable .NET 2.0 and 3.5, and for some reason, no matter what method I use (I've tried 4 different methods) to try to install/enable .NET 2.0 and 3.5 I always get an error. Without those components, I can't install NT 7. So what I might end up doing is reinstalling Windows 8, but this time from scratch, instead of updating from Win 7 as I did before. My desktop has Win 7 and it doesn't have any issues. So I'm thinking maybe something with the upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8 is what is making it difficult for me to enable the .NET framework and therefore cant get NT 7 to install.

So I wouldn't say it's a NT issue, but more of a Win 8 issue.

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  #42 (permalink)
Boca Raton, FL
 
Experience: Advanced
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Broker: Optimus Futures / Rithmic
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 27 since May 2013
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Lmess View Post
I just want to share my experience.

I have a laptop which I upgraded from Win 7 to Win 8 and I can't install NinjaTrader 7. The problem is that I need to enable .NET 2.0 and 3.5, and for some reason, no matter what method I use (I've tried 4 different methods) to try to install/enable .NET 2.0 and 3.5 I always get an error. Without those components, I can't install NT 7. So what I might end up doing is reinstalling Windows 8, but this time from scratch, instead of updating from Win 7 as I did before. My desktop has Win 7 and it doesn't have any issues. So I'm thinking maybe something with the upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8 is what is making it difficult for me to enable the .NET framework and therefore cant get NT 7 to install.

So I wouldn't say it's a NT issue, but more of a Win 8 issue.

I'm sorry to hear your system is having some trouble! Is there a specific error it's giving you?

To share my experience on Windows 8 / NinjaTrader 7, everything has worked perfectly from the get go. I've had Windows 8 since the developer preview and have used it exclusively for NinjaTrader 7 since the developer preview was released. I'm now on the latest consumer version(bought it for the $40 promo price!), and still haven't had any hitches yet. I regularly use vendor-licensed indicators as well as Kinetick/Rithmic data feeds.

I should also mention that I use Windows 8 within Parallel's Desktop on my Mac.

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  #43 (permalink)
Chiang Mai Thailand
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Broker: IB/IB, AMP/CQG
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 129 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 23 given, 53 received

I have had issues with windows 8 updates and security patches--i had to roll back 3 updates to get it that ninja would open again.


anyone else has problems with updates??

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  #44 (permalink)
Boca Raton, FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Optimus Futures / Rithmic
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 27 since May 2013
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asiaexpat View Post
I have had issues with windows 8 updates and security patches--i had to roll back 3 updates to get it that ninja would open again.


anyone else has problems with updates??

Hello asiaexpat,

I actually ran into this a while after I made my previous post. I had downloaded some updates for Windows 8 and then NinjaTrader wouldn't open up. No splash screen, or anything.

It turns out there is one, single security patch that caused it. I simply uninstalled this patch: "Security Update for Microsoft Windows KB2836988"

After I did that everything was good to go. For anyone who runs into this you can follow these instructions:
  1. Press your 'Windows' button to get to the metro interface
  2. Start typing to search for 'View installed updates'
  3. You'll have to highlight 'Settings' on the right hand side
  4. Click the 'View Installed Updates' option
  5. Locate 'Security Update for Microsoft Windows KB2836988"
  6. Select it and then choose 'Uninstall'
  7. Restart your PC
  8. Start using NinjaTrader again

I'm not sure what this security patch covers, but I haven't run into any issues since rolling it back, nor have I run into any other Windows 8 & NT compatibility issues aside from this one.

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  #45 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
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Details on that KB:

Windows 8 and Windows Server 2012 update rollup: May 2013

Mike

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  #46 (permalink)
Chiang Mai Thailand
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Broker: IB/IB, AMP/CQG
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 129 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 23 given, 53 received




KBKB2836988 Resolves a lot of WIN 8 issues. Too bad we can't apply it. No guidance from Ninja or update from Ninja that addresses this issue. Or is there??

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  #47 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Paris
 
Experience: None
Platform: NinjaTrader
 
Posts: 1,247 since Oct 2009
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I used compatibility mode
Not running anymore after latest update on Win8 - NinjaTrader Support Forum

No news from NT except "please uninstall security patch".... Except it's flagged important so it gets reinstalled....

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  #48 (permalink)
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
Fort Lauderdale
 
Experience: None
Platform: Optimus Flow, NT8. TS
Broker: CQG, Rithmic
Trading: ES
 
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Posts: 811 since Oct 2009
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Hi guys I'm getting ready to buy a new laptop and as soon as it's available I'll order a thinkpad w540. My question is do I get it with windows 8 or stick to windows 7? Primarily I use it to run Ninjatrader.
-the last post here was in august so if anyone can offer any insight I would greatly appreciate it!

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  #49 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Paris
 
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No problem with Ninja and W8 or W8.1

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  #50 (permalink)
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
Fort Lauderdale
 
Experience: None
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gomi View Post
No problem with Ninja and W8 or W8.1

great thank you @gomi !

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  #51 (permalink)
NY
 
 
Posts: 90 since Sep 2009
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wahn View Post
I have clean installed Win 8 Pro from Win 7 last night.
Despite of some negative reviews on desktop friendliness I like Win 8.

Here are few links to make look & feel like Windows 7:

Classic Shell | Free software downloads at SourceForge.net

WinAero: Downloads / Software / Tiny Windows Borders

WinAero: Aero8Tuner

WinAero: Close Threshold for Metro Apps


How to make Windows 8 look like Windows 7 | Reviews | CNET UK

One year later and with the advent of Window 8.1 meanwhile, is there are any other tweak in order to get Win 7 behavior and GUI with Win 8 rigs?

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  #52 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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A few tricks I use to have a Windows 2000 (no segoe)-looking Windows 8 computer


1. Metrics

Before upgrading to W8, export the HKCU\Control Panel\Desktop\WindowsMetrics key
Reimport it in W8 (after having backed it up of course)

This will allow
  • To set the default font to something else than Segoe (I use Tahoma from the basic style in W7)
  • It will will set your windows borders to standard Windows size, not the huge W8 ones


2. Disable Segoe UI

I used to delete the font mappings in the registry but it has some side effects

Now I use MacType ( mactype - Ultimate font Rasterizer for Windows - Google Project Hosting ) to remap Segoe UI to Microsoft Sans Serif using font substitution.

It allows to substitute default font in applications allowing it (Office 2010), while keeping the font on the system for the apps needing it (task manager, Office 2013) etc..


3. Replace Explorer

I always felt that starting with Vista/W7, Explorer was being dumbed down (how to I find all source files named *.cs containing some text ????, impossible using W7 explorer)

I use Directory Opus as a replacement



Once you've done that you have a pretty decent W2000 experience on your W8 system

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  #53 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: CL
 
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Posts: 101 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,800 given, 62 received

Win 8.1 has been installed for almost 3mos...

So far no troubles at all with NT7 v20....

I don't use Tuneup Utility anymore instead started using Iobit's Razer Game Booster
to disable some of window background applications to free resources without affecting to
the full function of NT7 and Chrome.
Also Advance System Care has been uninstalled but Auslogic Bootspeed V6 added.

With Game Booster You have options to disable Windows applications but to enable back
(such as print spool and Window language IME) you need system restart.

So all printing is done after trading or use Teamvierwer to print out from 2nd PC after transferring
files thru Teamviewer.

Cheers,

wahn

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  #54 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Paris
 
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Another cool thingy that was removed in W8 is the "Previous Versions" tab on files, that allowed you to access up to 63 previous of your files stored in VSS snapshots.

But you can still access the tab by using network access, ie \\localhost\c$

To create a snapshot, you can use vhsadow.exe too lfrom Microsoft.
in a script :
vshadow -p -scsf c:

And tada, new snapshot of c drive, accessible in Previous Versions tab....

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  #55 (permalink)
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
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Trading: CL
 
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Posts: 101 since Sep 2010
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I've found Monitor Off Utility works in Win 8.1 .

Dekisoft - Downloads

wahn

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