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Webinar: NinjaTrader Advanced Topics with Raymond Deux, Oct 4 2011


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Webinar: NinjaTrader Advanced Topics with Raymond Deux, Oct 4 2011

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  #1 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Hi guys,

Raymond Deux, the President/CEO of NinjaTrader, will be back on Tuesday October 4th @ 4:30PM Eastern US.

If you attended the last webinar with Ray, you'll remember a lot of members were asking some rather advanced technical questions. So Ray and I decided to try and do an entire webinar presentation that just focuses on answering questions from members.

In addition, Raymond has decided to donate a prize: (1) NinjaTrader 7 Multi-Broker License, valid for six months (a $495 value). The prize will be raffled off during the webinar.

I'll update this thread in the coming days with the link to register for the webinar.


EDIT Oct 4 2011:

Tip


The recording for the webinar is available here:

https://futures.io/webinars/oct4_2011/one_on_one_president_ninjatrader/




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 dtman 
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Can we ask programming style of questions? Or would that be to boring?

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 Big Mike 
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dtman View Post
Can we ask programming style of questions? Or would that be to boring?

Yeah no programming help or how to's, attend tomorrows webinar for that.

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  #4 (permalink)
 andrewtrader 
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I am live license holder of NT for a while already and was working with NT7 developing different strategies and indicators for my own research. However I must say NT gives up to Multicharts for almost everything. I really like data collection, workspace, pluggable trailing stop strategy solutions, per chart data and many other interface enhancements MC has readily available as these are necessity for everyone trading. However with unknown NT update/release strategy looks like many enhancements many traders demand are postponed (or maybe even not considered) indefinitely.

I am not trying to flame here but would like to suggest calm constructive action as we are community that still trust in NT and use this product, so maybe we could influence development direction of NT exposing what we are not happy about. I suggest people to compile list of major (functional and architectural) deficiencies of NT and present this list to CEO as community's voice. This is our opportunity, let's not waste it!

My list:
- standalone data collector similar to QuoteManager MC has, that could run and collect price data independently on any machine and serve price data to charts, or backtesting strategies locally or via network;
- backtesting/optimization is standalone, separate program that doesn't freeze/crash NT while fetching historical data, etc. Backtesting should have batch job and pause/save, load/resume job capabilities.
- historical bid/ask data for CD volume studies;
- per chart data feed; (for example I want to have two simultaneous charts of EUR/USD, one receiving data say via MBT, another via Dukas);
- customizable undocable toolbars with ability to assign actions to buttons, some actions duplicate context menus (say drawing tools), other - user defined, like dataseries switch, indicators on/off, etc. To me, this feature is single most important (and quickest) change NT can do with almost minimal effort that immediately lifts NT to new usability level.

Personally I think NT is understaffed with programmers who could work with interface enhancements between major releases. Because if we look at change log, we see that minor releases that come at average every 2 months have bug fixes, sometimes data feed driver enhancements. And we get interface upgrade with major releases only that come every... 2-3 years?! If this trend will continue NT will loose half of it's audience within next year.

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 MrYou 
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andrewtrader View Post
Personally I think NT is understaffed with programmers who could work with interface enhancements between major releases.

In defense of NT.....As was mentioned in his previous seminar....some features (such as the ones you mentioned) are not minor "interface enhancements" and require major code changes and/or gutting of NTs code base. For most users in a production environment, more than likely, this would introduce too much risk for potential bugs or unstable software. In other words, you might need to see it as a "major rewrite" from a developers perspective vs "interface enhancements" from a users perspective.

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 andrewtrader 
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MrYou View Post
In defense of NT.....As was mentioned in his previous seminar....some features (such as the ones you mentioned) are not minor "interface enhancements" and require major code changes and/or gutting of NTs code base. For most users in a production environment, more than likely, this would introduce too much risk for potential bugs or unstable software. In other words, you might need to see it as a "major rewrite" from a developers perspective vs "interface enhancements" from a users perspective.

well, data collector engine, backtesting - yes, you are right, but user interface usability enhancements such as say customizable toolbar, etc? Common, toolbars would take 5 days for me, and for professional programmer that's maybe 2-3 days Anyway MC staff somehow manages to provide continuous upgrades with larger feature set... So no excuse here.

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 Big Mike 
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Let's not beat up Ray before he even takes the stage... Ray has always openly answered all questions, feedback and criticism, I am sure this time will be no different.

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 Big Mike 
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Also, @NinjaTrader will be giving away a six month NinjaTrader Multi-Broker license during the webinar! Thanks Ray

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 Big Mike 
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Webinar is starting in a few minutes.

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 Big Mike 
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Great webinar

Lots of questions answered, lots of ideas discussed for NT8, plus a prize raffled off ...

Hope you guys enjoyed it. I will post the recorded version of the webinar sometime tomorrow most likely.

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 Big Mike 
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Tip


The recording for today's webinar has been posted:

Webinar: One-on-One with the President of NinjaTrader




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 shodson 
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Thanks Ray for your time. I thought your answers were well thought, insightful, fair and felt that you really care about providing a good trading ecosystem for users and partners. I'm looking forward to NT8, whenever that is (don't give a date until you're sure you can meet it!!!!)

Along that line, however, BigMike had a good question about different builds like a lot of other products, though you see this more frequently in the open source world. It would be interesting to have nightly builds available that are unsupported by Ninjatrader support. However, I see the risk if someone decides to live trade with an unstable, nightly build/beta, then blames you/NT for losing money. For that reason and others it might not make business sense to provide unstable, unspported builds. Maybe the nightly builds could have live trading turned off so people can still use the other features without the risk of losing money. Just my $0.02.

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shodson View Post
Thanks Ray for your time. I thought your answers were well thought, insightful, fair and felt that you really care about providing a good trading ecosystem for users and partners. I'm looking forward to NT8, whenever that is (don't give a date until you're sure you can meet it!!!!)

Along that line, however, BigMike had a good question about different builds like a lot of other products, though you see this more frequently in the open source world. It would be interesting to have nightly builds available that are unsupported by Ninjatrader support. However, I see the risk if someone decides to live trade with an unstable, nightly build/beta, then blames you/NT for losing money. For that reason and others it might not make business sense to provide unstable, unspported builds. Maybe the nightly builds could have live trading turned off so people can still use the other features without the risk of losing money. Just my $0.02.

You are very welcome and also a thank you to you and all of the others who took time out of their busy schedule to listen to me speak. I enjoyed sharing my thoughts about NinjaTrader.
Thanks also for sharing your thoughts on nightly builds.

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 kulu 
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@Big Mike

I don't know if this was discussed during the webinar or not (I listened to the webinar). Why does NT7 not execute any OCO or other orders after my computer goes to sleep or is shutdown? For example, in Metatrader, I can place my orders, go to sleep and if price moves through my stop or entry, my trade is filled.

I am sure there is a more technical explanation for this. Is it because in Metatrader, you are always logged and connected, whereas in NT once your computer is off, you are not connected anymore. I hope my question makes sense.

Basically, I would like to place my order, go to sleep and have my orders executed regardless if my comp goes to sleep or not.

Thanks

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@ Big Mike

I don't know if this was discussed during the webinar or not (I listened to the webinar). Why does NT7 not execute any OCO or other orders after my computer goes to sleep or is shutdown? For example, in Metatrader, I can place my orders, go to sleep and if price moves through my stop or entry, my trade is filled.

I am sure there is a more technical explanation for this. Is it because in Metatrader, you are always logged and connected, whereas in NT once your computer is off, you are not connected anymore. I hope my question makes sense.

Basically, I would like to place my order, go to sleep and have my orders executed regardless if my comp goes to sleep or not.

Thanks

In short, if OCO orders are supported server side then you can shut NinjaTrader off. If they are managed client side, you need to keep NinjaTrader running.

You can see if your brokerage technology supports server side OCO orders here - Where do your orders reside? - NinjaTrader Support Forum

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 kulu 
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NinjaTrader View Post
In short, if OCO orders are supported server side then you can shut NinjaTrader off. If they are managed client side, you need to keep NinjaTrader running.

You can see if your brokerage technology supports server side OCO orders here - Where do your orders reside? - NinjaTrader Support Forum

Thanks for your response. So are you saying that this is not a ninjatrader issue (for lack of a better word)? More of a brokerage technology (Mirus/ZenFire) issue?

Thanks

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Thanks for your response. So are you saying that this is not a ninjatrader issue (for lack of a better word)? More of a brokerage technology (Mirus/ZenFire) issue?

Thanks

No problem. What I am saying is that that OCO support is provided either natively by the brokerage technology if not, its simulated on client side.

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 andrewtrader 
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Big Mike View Post
Great webinar
Mike

really?!!

personally I am very disappointed after this webinar. That was poor webinar with lot's of defensive marketing talk and empty promises. Evasive, non direct answers, [looks like] intentionally missing question point.

This webinar could have been open talk between NT and community in a way "yes we know we are lagging, but this is how we are going to fix features and improve ties with community". But it turned out to be "there is nothing wrong, nothing happening and we planning to do something the way it's comfortable for us, oh here is candy by the way".

In short after this webinar we know that: we will have improvements in NT8. That's it. What a "blessing". What exactly, how exactly, when, etc. remains to be guessed.

Features/Release cycles:
NT independently chooses what features should be important for us. Release cycles are unknown what means if NT chooses to implement some features on it's own without consulting community we could be stuck for years waiting some improvements. It's like waiting for solution and after years of waiting - surprise surprise we get not what majority expect.
Another point - if X company wants to base it's solution around NT and it's long term investment X company wants to know release cycles and direction of NT development. Otherwise it's like buying "a pig in a poke".

Community/relationship:
NT doesn't respect it's user community and is stuck in 15year old proprietary philosophies to protect something that is obvious. NT doesn't understand that it makes product for users and real asset is happy user community. While many companies step forward and engage in two way transparent communication giving users some degree to influence final product, NT remains closed and feeds us with marketing b.s. and shining future promises without any terms, priorities, votable wishlists, etc. In this way NT developers lost touch with reality and real demand going themselves independently.

Let's acknowledge NT is strongly lagging behind number of other trading platforms. That is obvious to anybody working longer in trading business, people on futures.io (formerly BMT) moving to another platforms, even Big Mike himself. NT's major advantage (AND disadvantage at the same time) is C# scripting. We can tolerate feature lag for a while and make workarounds, but I don't think community will tolerate empty hung in time promises, defensive marketing b.s. like in this webinar and "we know better what you need" attitude from NT. That's food for thought for NT's BOD.

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 bukkan 
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andrewtrader View Post
really?!!

personally I am very disappointed after this webinar. That was poor webinar with lot's of defensive marketing talk and empty promises. Evasive, non direct answers, [looks like] intentionally missing question point.

This webinar could have been open talk between NT and community in a way "yes we know we are lagging, but this is how we are going to fix features and improve ties with community". But it turned out to be "there is nothing wrong, nothing happening and we planning to do something the way it's comfortable for us, oh here is candy by the way".

In short after this webinar we know that: we will have improvements in NT8. That's it. What a "blessing". What exactly, how exactly, when, etc. remains to be guessed.

Features/Release cycles:
NT independently chooses what features should be important for us. Release cycles are unknown what means if NT chooses to implement some features on it's own without consulting community we could be stuck for years waiting some improvements. It's like waiting for solution and after years of waiting - surprise surprise we get not what majority expect.
Another point - if X company wants to base it's solution around NT and it's long term investment X company wants to know release cycles and direction of NT development. Otherwise it's like buying "a pig in a poke".

Community/relationship:
NT doesn't respect it's user community and is stuck in 15year old proprietary philosophies to protect something that is obvious. NT doesn't understand that it makes product for users and real asset is happy user community. While many companies step forward and engage in two way transparent communication giving users some degree to influence final product, NT remains closed and feeds us with marketing b.s. and shining future promises without any terms, priorities, votable wishlists, etc. In this way NT developers lost touch with reality and real demand going themselves independently.

Let's acknowledge NT is strongly lagging behind number of other trading platforms. That is obvious to anybody working longer in trading business, people on futures.io (formerly BMT) moving to another platforms, even Big Mike himself. NT's major advantage (AND disadvantage at the same time) is C# scripting. We can tolerate feature lag for a while and make workarounds, but I don't think community will tolerate empty hung in time promises, defensive marketing b.s. like in this webinar and "we know better what you need" attitude from NT. That's food for thought for NT's BOD.


Quoting 
2. Customers cannot tell you what they need
“Apple market research” is an oxymoron. The Apple focus group was the right hemisphere of Steve’s brain talking to the left one. If you ask customers what they want, they will tell you, “Better, faster, and cheaper”—that is, better sameness, not revolutionary change. They can describe their desires only in terms of what they are already using—around the time of the introduction of Macintosh, all that people said they wanted was a better, faster, and cheaper MS-DOS machine. The richest vein for tech startups is creating the product that you want to use—that’s what Steve and Woz did.

What I learned from Steve Jobs | Apple - CNET News

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 andrewtrader 
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I am afraid you missed my points. And business people know very well what they need to make more money. It's unfortunate thou that NT users are business people too... Also following your article next step would be to "jump next curve" by moving silently to say MC and forget everything.

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 bukkan 
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andrewtrader View Post
I am afraid you missed my points. And business people know very well what they need to make more money. It's unfortunate thou that NT users are business people too... Also following your article next step would be to "jump next curve" by moving silently to say MC and forget everything.

ahh, glad you didnt say the jump will be to metastock. the next step in reality doesnt exits, but it is created by vision, innovation.and innovation does not comes from consensus. how many polls/user feedback steve jobs take before launching iphone?

no platform/software is perfect. rather i say, every users need is unique and sometimes (if not always) no one software can meet all the requrements the users. but the uniqueness of ninja lies in ninjascript. personally, whatever nt lacked, i could fill the void by simply making an indicator. i am yet to come across any other software which gave me such flexibility.

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  #22 (permalink)
 devdas 
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bukkan View Post
but the uniqueness of ninja lies in ninjascript. personally, whatever nt lacked, i could fill the void by simply making an indicator.

actuallly infact its not ninjatrader platform or ninjascript....at the heart its C#..a powerfull pro language...

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 shodson 
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andrewtrader View Post
really?!!

I think a lot of problems could be addressed if Ninjatrader spent more time making point releases (7.1, 7.2, etc) instead of working on multi-year, major releases which are giant, risk-laden infrastructural overhauls (NT8) that leave customers waiting for enhancements for dozens of months and long, bug-ridden beta cycles.

Another thing unique about their model is "pay once, get upgrades for life." Most software companies don't do this and instead, charge for upgrades on major releases but give free point releases/updates. The benefit of this is that the company is incentivized to make new major releases in a timely manner that can generate revenue, and the customer likes getting free point releases that improve the product in the meantime. Also, instead of paying a large lump sum of $1K up front for a license, you could charge, say, $299 for the software, then charge for major upgrades. This lowers the entry price but could lower the overall lifetime value of the customer if they buy just 1 version and never upgrade because they give up on trading or switch to another platform. However, you may be able to make money on the lower entry price with higher volume, but your support costs probably go up as well.

Another problem is that you have guys that don't want to upgrade and you have to support 4,5, 6+ past versions of software. That could be mitigated by end-of-life-ing older versions so you don't have to support those anymore. Also, it requires more complex source code management (multiple trunks for each major release, branches off of branches for support of point releases, etc) but it can be done, and is done all of the time.

I was surprised that for a 40-person company, 30 of them are support people. It seems like they should beef up the development staff. This could be a byproduct of their revenue model. For example, I bought a lifetime license, but odds are they will never make another dime from me even though I keep getting newer and newer versions of their software. Meanwhile, they have to provide the support that I expect from them during the lifetime of my patronage with them. I think they need a better way to extract revenue from customers to help continued funding of their support staff while at the same time properly funding R&D and innovation for newer versions.

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 andrewtrader 
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shodson View Post
I think a lot of problems could be addressed if Ninjatrader spent more time making point releases (7.1, 7.2, etc) instead of working on multi-year, major releases which are giant, risk-laden infrastructural overhauls (NT8) that leave customers waiting for enhancements for dozens of months and long, bug-ridden beta cycles.

exactly, completely agree.


shodson View Post
Another thing unique about their model is "pay once, get upgrades for life." Most software companies don't do this and instead, charge for upgrades on major releases but give free point releases/updates. The benefit of this is that the company is incentivized to make new major releases in a timely manner that can generate revenue, and the customer likes getting free point releases that improve the product in the meantime. Also, instead of paying a large lump sum of $1K up front for a license, you could charge, say, $299 for the software, then charge for major upgrades. This lowers the entry price but could lower the overall lifetime value of the customer if they buy just 1 version and never upgrade because they give up on trading or switch to another platform. However, you may be able to make money on the lower entry price with higher volume, but your support costs probably go up as well.

good points, I think most people would subscribe to idea to get improvements more often and have to pay less for initial version. Also NT could follow model to give discretionary trading features for one entry price affordable to everyone, and give additional features (like development, backtesting) for upgraded, more expensive version. Idea behind is that not every new trader is programmer or will ever want to dig into code.


shodson View Post
I was surprised that for a 40-person company, 30 of them are support people. It seems like they should beef up the development staff. This could be a byproduct of their revenue model. For example, I bought a lifetime license, but odds are they will never make another dime from me even though I keep getting newer and newer versions of their software. Meanwhile, they have to provide the support that I expect from them during the lifetime of my patronage with them. I think they need a better way to extract revenue from customers to help continued funding of their support staff while at the same time properly funding R&D and innovation for newer versions.

that's pretty obvious to anybody that they are understaffed with interface programmers. Adding one checkbox half of the forum raves about to NT interface is not a big deal for any programmer and changing object property to make for example toolbar floating is easy too. Instead they only manage to keep up with hotfixes. Also it looks completely strange for NT to ignore real commercial opportunities by refusing to add highly popular data feed connectors... So either problem is rotten brains at highest levels of management, failing to put priorities or they are short of programmers and lack of versioning protocols/workflow management.

Another thing - it looks completely strange to see all features and pretty complex NT functionality combined to one big fat program. This way for sure, if one single smallest part fails (because of say new addition community asks), whole program crashes. In contrast if NT worked more like client-server way, where different tasks are split to separate programs and they interact between each other i.e. data retrieval-storage is one program/service, backtesting - another separate program, Control Center and charting, dev. editor - again separate programs, this way each part could have it's own source trunk, probably independent upgrade cycle and adding one additional interface change or feature would not threaten whole program. Charting/interface=face of NT could be improved and beautified faster. So here we simply talk about lack of intelligent architecture from the very beginning and problems arising from that now.

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 sam028 
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andrewtrader View Post
...
Also it looks completely strange for NT to ignore real commercial opportunities by refusing to add highly popular data feed connectors...

CQG, IB, ESignal, IQFeed, Kinetick, ZenFire, MBT, Pats, TT, ...
Who are these highly popular data feeds ?
Dukas may be one of them, but that's all I can find...

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 andrewtrader 
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sam028 View Post
CQG, IB, ESignal, IQFeed, Kinetick, ZenFire, MBT, Pats, TT, ...
Who are these highly popular data feeds ?
Dukas may be one of them, but that's all I can find...

take a look how many of these support 64bit. And yes, Dukas and some others. If you look towards fx arena, you can grasp wast idea I have in mind... But for now enough golden ideas

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 tdmtrader 
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im not sure if this was covered in the webinar... but did Ray answer why Market-If-Touched orders have never been a part of ninjatrader? That is one of my biggest pet-peeves for me. Every other platform supports it yet for as long as i can remember, Ninjatrader says "It is on the list of future considerations." This is from early 6 to current versions

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 shodson 
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tdmtrader View Post
im not sure if this was covered in the webinar... but did Ray answer why Market-If-Touched orders have never been a part of ninjatrader? That is one of my biggest pet-peeves for me. Every other platform supports it yet for as long as i can remember, Ninjatrader says "It is on the list of future considerations." This is from early 6 to current versions

how is a market if touched order different from a stop order?

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shodson View Post
how is a market if touched order different from a stop order?

For example, a buy stop market order is valid above the curret market price but will be rejected if submitted below the market. A buy market if touched order is valid below the market. So, if you placed a buy limit below the market, you are filled once your up in the queue, an MIT at the same price would trigger at market once the price was touched.

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