I wonder how we would have reacted if the Japanese had wanted to build a Shinto shrine & cultural center 2 blocks from Pearl Harbor - oh, say sometime around November or December 1949 ?
I don't believe Islam is any more evil than some of what we've done in the name of Christianity over the centuries, but a little sensitivity wouldn't go amiss here. Learn from OUR examples! Islam is not immune to zealots and crazies any more than Christianity is. Evil religion? No. Evil people? Some of them. Some of them just like us.
Look at all the crazies we've got. Just tune to any of the "cryin' my heart out for Jesus, won't you please send in your donations right away so we can keep this wonderful message goin'" TV channels anywhere in the country, any night of the week.
It's become my understanding over the years that the original purpose of all religions was to help people become more aware of the Divine presence within us, that binds us all together. The problem is when one particular group KNOWS they have the correct answer and the rest of us are found sorely lacking. And WE have to be punished/ostracized/subjugated/demeaned/ignored, etc., until we come around to THEIR way of believing. As if God only loves ONE group of people!
If you find yourself in a conversation with someone who is convinced he or she has THE ANSWER - run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. No one has a hot-line to God!
For centuries, it was the message of Christianity that had to be carried to the heathen. Now it's Islam's turn. What makes us think that THAT will turn out any better.
I think religion should be personal. Period. Stop trying to force our personal beliefs on others with differing beliefs. That goes for Islam, too!
Is there ever going to be a time when it would be ok to build this Islamic cultural center (with a prayer room in the building) 2 blocks from ground zero? Not sure. I am relatively sure that now is not that time. Check back with us in 25 - 50 years.
After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
One thought I have right now...I'm not sure the American people know who they're at war
with. There are many groups out there. During World War II if someone in the U.S. publically
supported Hitler I'm sure they would either go to prison or be executed for treason. What
if there is a mosque somewhere (where ever ) in the U.S. and someone speaks well of
Hezbollah for example. I thought I heard a while back that they legally operate within the
U.S. If that's true it's crazy.
In the grand view of things this mosque isn't a big issue. I think if New Yorkers oppose it long
enough and hard enough it might be stopped.
( P.S. Let's hope this war is actually over in 25-50 years. And we won. )
Last edited by stephenszpak; August 26th, 2010 at 10:17 AM.
I have no religion. I m born as Hindu. I do have respect for all religion and at the same time i dont to any.
Now , Thing which bothers to me is Islamic terrorism around the globe. India has been suffering from it since 1979 as a part of proxy war from neighboring nation Pakistan ( Which is first islamic country also Most favored nation by USA ) Same as other countries , in India politicians r corrupt and their vision doesnt go beyond their vote bank.
But for me A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST.
There is no way America can win and still leave Hezbollah intact. All
Muslim terrorist organizations must be destroyed, or we can't survive.
(Obviously I've gotten off-topic here to some extent. I do think it's
important to understand the names that our enemies go by. Sometimes
those names are mentioned by Muslims, positively or negatively,
especially in places that they gather. Like mosques of course.)
In 1999, Hezbollah was placed on the US State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. After Hezbollah's condemnation of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the USA, it was removed from the list, but it was later returned to the list....
...The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization";
The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez and published in a Spanish newspaper on Jan. 15 2008. It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate the message to the rest of Europe - and possibly to the rest of the world.
REMEMBER AS YOU READ -- IT WAS IN A SPANISH PAPER
ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez
I walked down the street in Barcelona , and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz ... We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.
The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.
And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and
poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.
They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.
And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.
What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe .
A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.
Absolutely No Profiling! Pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. These events are actual events from history. They really happened! Do you remember?
HERE'S THE TEST
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by: a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
12. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered (brutally beheaded) by: Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
14. And now we can add: In 2009, 31 people wounded and 13 American Soldiers murdered on base at Fort Hood by a Major that was known as...You guessed it - A Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40.
No ... I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves - if they have any such sense.
As the writer of the award winning story 'Forrest Gump' so aptly put it, 'Stupid is as stupid does.'
The following user says Thank You to tigertrader for this post:
Firstly, I believe this has been shown to NOT have been in any Spanish newspaper. No citation of what paper is ever given, and there isn't even any evidence of the author having existed outside of this post, which appears to have originated at a right-wing, pro-Israel, anti-communist, Spanish language website called Gentiuna. Nevertheless, let's discuss the claims of it.
There's no argument that the holocaust was terrible and much was lost in losing those people, but this is not a situation of trading one for the other! The Muslim's had nothing to do with the holocaust, and it occurred over 50 years before these problems in Spain. When was a choice made to get rid of the Jews and replace them with Muslims? But let's draw a nexus between them anyway, because it will increase the anger towards them. Remember, also, that simply bec. this was written by someone in Spain doesn't mean that it's any more true or accurate than if it were written by an American. It's one man's view and opinion of the situation, and I'm sure there are people on both ends of the poles on this issue in Spain. We're hearing one of them. And the credibility of its claims go WAY down when there are outright lies in it.
... because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and
poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.
There's a good argument against bringing in 20 million of ANY people, so I'd say that could cause a problem. Although it apparently doesn't have to be addressed due to the fact that, according to Pew Research, as of 1996 there were 650,000 Muslims in Spain. http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf Unless over 19 million entered the country in 1997, the time between 1996 and when this "article" was "published" in January of 2008.
20 million....650,000. Same thing, give or take 19.3 million.
And according to this website post, inherent in being Islamic is being stupid, a criminal and having an unwillingness to work? There are 53 million Muslims in Europe, and 1.5 billion in the world, and they're all stupid, and unemployed because they're lazy and criminals?
They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.
Approximately 1% of the population has done that? Really? And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.
What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe .Again, no choice was made by Europe to exchange the Jews for Muslims. A red herring.
No ... I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people...snip... Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves - if they have any such sense.Aside from choosing to leave out any acts of terror that were committed by people outside of that demographic, it does SEEM to make an argument for profiling. Except for the fact that it's wrong about the reason why we don't do it. It has nothing to do with not offending anyone, and that Federal Justices want to thwart common sense. The policy is there because it's the law, based on our constitution. Now, if you want to make the argument that we should change that, that's fine. But when most of these views are expressed by people who constantly invoke the names of our founding fathers, and believe in strict constitutional constructionism as our judicial philosophy, and they rail against activist judges who deviate from that, it seems quite odd that they'd now want judges to rule against what the constitution says.
And if we want to profile, just be aware of the other side of that coin. Not just the people who are innocent and yet are made to undergo searches strictly based on their... well, not sure what it will be based on, as I don't really know how you can tell a Muslim, unless they're wearing traditional fundamentalist attire. In which case, if they ARE a terrorist and we are searching those people, ya think they might not dress that way? Or maybe we just check people coming from certain countries and of a certain age and gender, as this post suggests. But then they'll recruit non-Arab people, you know, say, like a British citizen (Richard Reid) or Nigerian (Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab). Which can lead us to a false sense of security, believing that we're safer than we are since we're targeting the right people. And of course the practicality issue, of how long we want to wait in line to while the extensive screening that's successful in Israel is done, such as interviewing those suspected people. We have VERY different air traffic issues here than there. Anyway, sadly, solutions are never as simple as they may seem.
The following user says Thank You to JackJ for this post:
It all goes back to the two types of Islam theory. We, in the West have
the Islam we like. A Muslim goes to work, does his religious stuff including
reading the Koran etc. This is the Islam we like. It's harmless to the rest
of us. Then there is the other Islam. The lslam that throws acid into women's
faces and wants Israel and any country that supports Israel destroyed.
We REALLY don't like this Islam.
In the West we think 'our' Islam is correct.
In much (though not all) of the world from western Africa to Indonesia,
our version of Islam is considered false and unacceptable.
The founding fathers wanted us in the U.S. to have Freedom of religion.
They never imagined any American having a religious belief that included
the destruction of America itself! Millions (though not all) of Muslims globally
want America destroyed. American Muslims that support terrorist groups
can't be tolerated.( I'm not a monster. I worked with a Muslim man in the 80's.
Never had a problem with him.)
There are many terrorist groups. Some are backed by entire countries, like
The US estimates that Iran has been giving Hezbollah about US$60–100 million per
year in financial assistance. Other estimates are as high as $200-million annually.
I do agree with what u wrote earlier. But as long as religious freedom is concern in India ( the country where i born n brought up ) . I guess its as same as USA or any other country. India is very versatile in Religious manners. Even though Majority belongs to Hinduism but the best of the Islamic sculptures and mosques r built in India. Buddhism ( which is largely followed in china, japan , Korea n many countries ) was born in India. And its growing in synergy with other religions over here.
We have Hinduism , Islam , Buddhism , Christians , Jews or any other religion u name. Not sure who posted that image but India is Secular in terms of religions. ( Infact as per Islamic policy, and growing population of muslims across the country , Its tough for them to be called minority anymore. But politicians cant give away their votebanks and which implies all around the world where democracy exists. )
At the same time i cant be that sure about other south asia countries. Some r secular while a country which born with Islamic country ( Pakistan ) does not have same liberty for other religion like India. I do appreciate USA for being a secular country. This is how things should be.
I don't think it is totally valid, as I get into it now.
I'm not a world traveler and I generally go by what wikipedia
says. I probably should re-think their status at this point.
Info below is from link.
taking into account both governmental restrictions on the freedom of religion and social hostility related to religion.
light yellow: low restrictions
dark yellow: moderate restrictions
orange: high restrictions
red: very high restrictions
todo: improve color coding. this is an overlay of two datasets, see p. 28 of report.
Data for 50 most populous countries:
high to very high
Iraq, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Israel, Burma
Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Yemen, Turkey, Algeria, Russia, Uzbekistan, Maldives
moderate to high
Eritrea, China, Malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam, Morocco, Ethiopia, Kenya, Mexico, Nepal, Nigeria,
Ukraine, Germany, Thailand, France, Tanzania, Congo, Philippines, Ghana
low to moderate
USA, Spain, Uganda, Venezuela, Italy, UK, South Africa, Colombia
Taiwan, South Korea, Scandinavia, Peru, Mozambique, Brazil, Poland, Argentina, Canada