CBO on Tobin Tax - "Don't do it!' - News and Current Events | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading

CBO on Tobin Tax - "Don't do it!'
Updated: Views / Replies:475 / 1
Created: by Quick Summary Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors – all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you don’t need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Thread Tools Search this Thread

CBO on Tobin Tax - "Don't do it!'

  #1 (permalink)
Quick Summary
CBO on Tobin Tax - "Don't do it!'

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) explored the consequences of a Tobin tax, after it was asked to throw in its two cents in regarding proposed legislation, H.R. 3313 / S. 1787. The proposed new law has a very catch title:

“Wall Street Trading and Speculators Tax Act”

Who wouldn't like something like? For a country that (A) is desperate for revenue and (B) whose populous hates financial fat cats, speculators, monstrously paid bankers, and ridiculously paid hedge fund execs, a transaction tax is an easy sell.

I’ve taken grief on these pages with my position that taxes are a necessity. “Zero” is not the right number. The only questions are who pays and how much. With that said, it’s hard for me to push against a transaction tax. But I’m against this. The costs will outweigh any benefits that are created. I think the CBO agrees. Some bits from the report (Link):
For a transaction involving a stock, bond, or other debt obligation, the tax would be 0.03 percent of the value of the security.
Gee! Only .03%! Hardly worth noticing! Actually it is. Based on recent turnover the cost of the tax would be $1.7mm every day for those trading AAPL. For GE and BAC, it comes to a rake of $327k and $425k, respectively. That’s real money.

The argument will be put forth that the tax is only a few pennies. A long-term buyer of AAPL would have to pay a total of only 24 cents to buy/hold/sell a share. For BAC, it's only 3/8th of a cent (.0032).

The transaction tax on Government bonds will only be applied to maturities over 100 days and not applicable to any new issuance. So if you were looking to park $100k in T notes for a year, you could avoid the tax by participating in the government’s auctions. That’s stupid. No one will do that. People will call their brokers and it will cost them an extra 30 bucks to own the Note.

The US bond market is very complex. It has nothing to do with retail demand. A substantial portion of the $10T of Treasury plus $7T of Agency paper is in perpetual float. I estimate that at least one third of the outstandings have no permanent home. It sloshes about the globe based on a variety of macro forces. How many times do they “slosh” in a year? Much more than you might think. The number is a minimum of 5Xs. (I think it is around 7Xs, it could be as high as 10Xs) Using the low estimate, the annual float turnover impacted by the tax equals $25T. That teeny weeny tax would therefore suck $8 billion out of the market. That’s a very big deal. The CBO sees this pretty clearly:

Securities that are traded frequently, such as Treasury securities, would be more affected than securities that are traded less frequently.
The proposed transaction tax would lay waste to the HFT crowd. Their spreads are far too small and their volumes too high, to not have their business models get crushed by a Tobin tax. Many will cheer, myself included. But a sudden death of the algo computers would be very destructive.
The tax would also decrease the volume of transactions and would make some types of trading activity—such as derivatives transactions to manage risk and computer-assisted high-frequency trading—unprofitable.

This is about the money and how much one keeps. So every effort will be made to divert trading activities outside of US tax jurisdictions.
Traders would have incentives to avoid the tax either by trading offshore or by creating new financial instruments that were not subject to the tax.

As the trading activity goes outside of our borders, so will all those traders and their high paying jobs. Also would go the thousands of back office/ support staff that goes with this.
As foreign holders of U.S. securities moved their transactions abroad, more of the market could go with them, which could diminish the importance of the United States as a major global financial market

All taxes have consequences. A Tobin transaction tax would be no exception:
In the short term, imposing the transaction tax would probably reduce output and employment.

Beyond the first few years the tax’s net impact on the economy is unclear.
Unclear? This is pretty clear:
The transaction tax would raise the costs of financing investments to the extent that it made transactions more expensive, financial markets less liquid, and management of financial risk more costly.

A net change in the amount of investment would in turn affect GDP and employment. In the short term, a decrease in investment would lower demand for goods and services and thus reduce output and employment.

Reduce output and employment? Just what we need.

These consequences are not the ones that worry me. I’m concerned with liquidity. What will happen when 50% of short-term trading is eliminated? The CBO has an answer for that:
The tax might discourage short-term speculation, which can destabilize markets and lead to disruptive events (such as the October 1987 stock market crash and the more recent “flash crash,” when the stock market temporarily plunged on May 6, 2010)
How might the markets welcome a transaction tax? I say this would get a huge thumb’s down. If you believe that wealth in 401Ks drives the economy (I do), then this will bring (another) recession. The CBO agrees, sort of.
Initially, the transaction tax would reduce the value of existing financial assets, because investors would not be willing to pay as much for assets that had become more costly to trade. That reduction would produce an immediate—though probably small—decline in wealth for people who owned financial assets when the policy was enacted.

Note: The CBO are a bunch of bean counters. They have not the slightest idea what the markets may do if this tax was enacted. When they say the consequence to assets values will “probably be small” they are making it up. (A Wall Street broker is not allowed to say things like this. The outcome is not predictable)

This is not a tax on speculators and guys who wear white spats on Wall Street. This will impact all the pension and savings plans:
The transaction tax would also affect the funding of state and local pension plans ($3 trillion as of June 2011). Besides initially reducing the value of their existing assets slightly, the tax would raise transaction costs for pension plans. Both of those effects would increase required contributions to the plans.

Note: There’s that “slightly" thing again. Shame on the CBO for soft peddling the risks.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see that a transaction tax becomes a political football in the next election. Obama will support it. The Republican candidate will oppose it. If the election were tomorrow, Obama would handily beat either Newt the Fool or Mitt the Suit. Unfortunately, I think a transaction tax, and all the bad things it will bring, is in our future.


Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

More on ZeroHedge...

Reply to share your thoughts on this current event.

  #2 (permalink)
Just a boy
Auckland, New Zealand
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: Whatever moves in my timezone
Posts: 1,806 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 3,168 given, 1,383 received

Surprised there is little comment on this

I am surprised there is not more comment on futures.io (formerly BMT) about this potential tax and a similar one in Europe.

A couple of months ago I did some rough calculations based on an article I read where it quoted a likley tax rate, what instruments it would apply to and how it would be applied. From memory my calculations showed it would make scalping futures contracts on a daily basis unprofitable.

In other words it would seem to kill the industry most of us are trying to participate in and some of us are relying on for our main income.

For me it is probably not all doom and gloom:

a) I still have not given up my full time job, partly because I am nervous about the impact of something like this on trading income; and

b) I am not a USA resident as I live in New Zealand and I believe that if the USA and Europe go down this track, then the UK and Asia will not. This I believe will lead to the further development of the futures markets in those two areas, hopefully giving me an alternative place to trade.

Is anyone else similary concerned about such a tax, especially our US and Europe members - or have I read it all wrong?

Reply With Quote


futures io > > > > CBO on Tobin Tax - "Don't do it!'

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Wyckoff Hunting for Great Risk/Reward Ratio w/Gary Fullett

Elite only

Digging into the Details of iSystems w/Stage 5 & iSystems

Jun 5

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"The Inmates Don’t Know It’s An Asylum" Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 December 11th, 2011 10:30 PM
CBO Report - "We should subsidize more mortgages" Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 November 16th, 2011 12:10 PM
Silvio Berlusconi: "We Don't Want Elections. We Want To Govern" - Tens Of Thousands O Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 November 6th, 2011 07:10 PM
Gov. Rick Perry: 'I Don't Care' If Flat-Tax Plan Helps the Wealthy Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 October 25th, 2011 11:40 AM
The video the Bipartisan "compromisers" don't want you watch RM99 News and Current Events 0 August 3rd, 2011 08:06 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:11 AM.

Copyright © 2018 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2018-05-23 in 0.09 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP