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NinjaTrader or Multicharts
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NinjaTrader or Multicharts

  #71 (permalink)
Elite Member
California
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 50 since Dec 2011
Thanks: 101 given, 51 received


Big Mike View Post
I was using the Sierra Chart DOM after I left NT and went to MC, before MC had their own DOM. Then the beta's came out of MC7 with the DOM, and I used it for a while. I ran into some problems unfortunately, so I stopped using it and went back to the Sierra DOM which I like better. Those problems were later fixed but I've just been too lazy to go back to MC dom, SC is nice and I am used to it.

@manualtrader should link to the Project Management requests he created (bug reports) so we can see the status of the bugs and if anyone else has reproduced them. I would imagine if such a bug was reproducible it would receive the highest attention at MC.

Mike

MC support people reproduced these problems, and they think it is normal, and just because there are not many people complained about this bugs, so they do not want to put the effort and time to improve it. For billr, it is very simple, you can use trial version of MC, and use Master Strategy and you can get the same problems I got, and it will make the trade very hard. Here is the bugs I posted on MC forum,


MC is a great charting software, that's why I switched from NT, but there are a lot of bugs in ATM trading, which makes it very very difficult for real time trading, and I contacted Andrew, Henry, Katrin, Roman, and they all GREAT people trying to help me. Here are the ATM trading problems:

1. Master Strategy Targets does not work properly. I have Master Strategy auto attached to orders with three Profit Targets, if the entire order quantity is not filled one time, the profit targets will be wrong. For example, if 300 shares filled in three times, they will give you one Profit Target instead of three.
2. Master Strategy Profit Targets do not work when you add second position. If you had one position with three targets, when you add second position the same as the first one, it only adds the second position quantity to the third Target. For example, if you had 300 shares position with three targets, 100 shares @$51, 100 @52, 100 @51, when you add 300 shares more, you are expecting 200 shares @51, 200 shares @52, and 200 shares @53, instead it gives you 100@51, 100@52, and 400@53.
3. Master Strategy mixes all profit target for different orders. For example, if you entered order 300 shares at $50, the you have three targets per master strategy, 100 share @51, 100 shares @52, and 100@53; then if you entered second order 300 shares with three targets, such at $52, $53, $54, and the master strategy will combine the second lot targets with the first lots, and did the same with stops.

All these bugs make me so frustrated when I can't manage my trades corrrectly. I know many people are doing auto trading, but MC should not ignore the bugs in manual trading, because all new traders will start with manual trading, once they tried MC, they will go to NT for solution, NT handles ATM very well.

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  #72 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,352 given, 83,231 received

@manualtrader, what are the links to where you filed the bug reports?

Mike

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  #73 (permalink)
Elite Member
California
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 50 since Dec 2011
Thanks: 101 given, 51 received



Big Mike View Post
@manualtrader, what are the links to where you filed the bug reports?

Mike

Hello Mike,

I have not filed a bug report yet, only contacted their support team and post the bugs on their forum. Their reply told me their software works correctly even we can't use it to trade correctly.

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  #74 (permalink)
Elite Member
Laguna Beach, CA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Still Deciding
Favorite Futures: CL, 3x ETFs
 
Posts: 2 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 0 received

Thanks much to Jonson & billr for the feedback.

As for Jonson's remarks on MACD etc. as lagging indicators, I know that is the case, but I was trying to give a simple example to show that my strategy goals are on the simpler side vs. complex side (I am an indicator minimalist). OTOH, I consistently make .10-.20 on trades @ 5-10 contracts using simple indicators such as MACD. This will not win me any trading contests for sure, but it more than pays the bills!

TIA if any others have suggestions on the preferable platform for ease in setting up auto trading CL using a combination of off the shelf indicators and IB. Sierra Charts has also come up as I've read as well but it is hard to gauge its strengths vis-a-vis autotrading.

So, again thanks for the thoughts and feedback. This forum is an amazing resource.

Cheers and Happy 2012 to All!

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  #75 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.multicharts.com 
Columbus, Ohio, US
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts
Broker/Data: Multiple/Multiple
Favorite Futures: ES, EUR/USD
 
MultiCharts's Avatar
 
Posts: 168 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 74 given, 170 received


manualtrader View Post
MC support people reproduced these problems, and they think it is normal, and just because there are not many people complained about this bugs, so they do not want to put the effort and time to improve it. For billr, it is very simple, you can use trial version of MC, and use Master Strategy and you can get the same problems I got, and it will make the trade very hard. Here is the bugs I posted on MC forum,


MC is a great charting software, that's why I switched from NT, but there are a lot of bugs in ATM trading, which makes it very very difficult for real time trading, and I contacted Andrew, Henry, Katrin, Roman, and they all GREAT people trying to help me. Here are the ATM trading problems:

1. Master Strategy Targets does not work properly. I have Master Strategy auto attached to orders with three Profit Targets, if the entire order quantity is not filled one time, the profit targets will be wrong. For example, if 300 shares filled in three times, they will give you one Profit Target instead of three.
2. Master Strategy Profit Targets do not work when you add second position. If you had one position with three targets, when you add second position the same as the first one, it only adds the second position quantity to the third Target. For example, if you had 300 shares position with three targets, 100 shares @$51, 100 @52, 100 @51, when you add 300 shares more, you are expecting 200 shares @51, 200 shares @52, and 200 shares @53, instead it gives you 100@51, 100@52, and 400@53.
3. Master Strategy mixes all profit target for different orders. For example, if you entered order 300 shares at $50, the you have three targets per master strategy, 100 share @51, 100 shares @52, and 100@53; then if you entered second order 300 shares with three targets, such at $52, $53, $54, and the master strategy will combine the second lot targets with the first lots, and did the same with stops.

All these bugs make me so frustrated when I can't manage my trades corrrectly. I know many people are doing auto trading, but MC should not ignore the bugs in manual trading, because all new traders will start with manual trading, once they tried MC, they will go to NT for solution, NT handles ATM very well.

manualtrader,

Let me address the issues you described in order. Again, these are not bugs but rather particularities of implementation.

1. The described problem appears if the parent order is partially filled (not entire order quantity filled at once).
The default timeout is 1000 ms (1 second). The strategy fixes the current available amount of contracts 1000 ms after the first fill.The workaround for this is to increase the default timeout in the registry editor.

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\TS Support\MultiCharts\TraderServer

You need to create a new DWORD value called "OrderPartFillTimeOutMSForATM" and set the data value in milliseconds in Decimal system. The timer restarts after each next partial order fill.

2. We understand your point. This functionality can be implemented in different ways. This question is still open and we understand that current behavior can be improved. Aa a workaround, you can rigt-click on each Profit Target and Stop and change quantity manually (+100 in your example).

3. Exit strategies are applied to the entire position in MultiCharts. We follow the same logic NFA followed when prohibited to have multiple open positions in opposite directions. From our point of view there is no point in displaying 20 different Profit Tartgets.

MultiCharts - Raising the Trading Standard.
Please send me a private message if you have any further questions about MultiCharts
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  #76 (permalink)
Elite Member
san francisco, ca
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
 
Posts: 45 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 41 given, 26 received


MultiCharts View Post
Another question - what is the difference between inputting C# code directly into NT, and writing a C# DLL and using it from MultiCharts' EL? Is there something that can be accomplished within NT that cannot be used in a DLL?

Big difference is that the mind shhift between languages and approach. If I am switching between EL an C# I have to a) know both and b) architecturely think through where to do what etc. With a single C# environment it is a single "canvas" so as to speak


Last edited by dnof; January 7th, 2012 at 10:41 AM.
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  #77 (permalink)
Elite Member
san francisco, ca
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
 
Posts: 45 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 41 given, 26 received


Quoting 
3. Security. Your C# code is not secure, and this is a fact. C# is managed code that runs on .NET that is compiled into machine code during run-time. All scripts contain the source code and your ideas are actually in the open, while you think they are secure (the most dangerous combination of all).
To gain more security, you need to use C++ because that compiles into machine code before use. Such code is more protected and needs to be disassembled to gain any information about it. Same thing goes for EasyLanguage Read-Only mode in MC – it exports machine code that is also version-secured. Disassembly of code is inherently difficult; it essentially requires the code to be rewritten based on visual observation, guessing, and a few hints disassembled 1’s and 0’s. Overall, security of managed C# and machine code cannot even be compared.
time limit NinjaScript protection - here is some more discussion on C# protection. Some third-party tools make it more difficult to read the code by adding certain “confusion” points, but an experienced programmer can easily follow the logic and would have no trouble rebuilding the code. You need to recognize that the C# code is still there – the managed code needs to be there to execute in run-time. Here some more commentary from NT’s website that says the same thing- How To Password Protect The Code On Ninja - NinjaTrader Support Forum

This is only relevant if you selling / distributing your code - which most if not all do not. Most trade privately where your primary security is the private network in which your machines reside, and your host based security posture. Also Billions of $$ of software is shipped today as C# and .Net based code so this is a really not an issue for very large sophisticated software house and is just irrelevant when comparing platforms.

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  #78 (permalink)
Elite Member
NY, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT/IB TWS
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 946 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 813 given, 443 received

NT all the way.

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  #79 (permalink)
Elite Member
Studio City
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: ZN, ES, GC
 
Posts: 51 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 1 given, 37 received

I tried MC, but could not stand the convoluted way to change time frames within a chart. In NT, you just type "2m" for instance in the chart and get a 2 mns chart (if I missed something there, please enlighten me). Does not sound like much, but when you are trading, it is a big deal. Also, one of the great advantages of NT is the superb work by the far larger developer community. I have yet to hear of anyone being able to use Gomi's excellent compilations in MC successfully. As far as stability, I have used NT now for three years, it has never crashed on me. But then again, I am careful not to load badly written indicators and have a very powerful machine. And the monthly licensing fee in NT is cheaper for a product that I think is superior. So NT all the way for me.

P.S.
The elitist attitude in the responses given by the MC vendor is an added turn-off. None of that dismissive language from NT. Ever.

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  #80 (permalink)
Elite Member
london, UK
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT7
Favorite Futures: TR909
 
Posts: 58 since Aug 2010
Thanks: 41 given, 34 received



crosscreek View Post
P.S.
The elitist attitude in the responses given by the MC vendor is an added turn-off. None of that dismissive language from NT. Ever.

mm i agree, MC are not the most professional in their forum comments.

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