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Volume Profile and MTPredictor
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Volume Profile and MTPredictor

  #1 (permalink)
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Volume Profile and MTPredictor

I know that some traders like to use mtp and another method and then look for confluence. MTP has even had joint webinars with the "flux" guys showing how the two can work together.

I'm happy with just using MTPredictor, but have also been reading some of the threads on Volume Profile. So I was a little excited when I saw a setup on the NQ this afternoon right on the VPOC. Obviously, one trade does not make a system but was curious to see if anyone else has looked at the two methods (elliot wave / fibs / abc corrections and the use of volume profile.

Let me know if you think the two can benefit each other.

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MTP

I am finding MTP works so well with so many other indicators,especially support and resistance. Take a look at using it with the APA waves. It has been interesting.

Love the site Big Mike.


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mtp synergies


Hi Chez,

I was interested in your post. I Started with mtp some years ago but was constantly frustrated by the number of times I would get taken out of a trade by a couple of ticks right after the signal. In the end I stopped using it as I just couldn't make it work for me. I then came across Wyckoff and that led to VSA. Understanding springs and upthrusts, particularly, as well as the Creek resistance and Ice support explained a lot! I keep meaning to go back and re-assess mtp armed with this additional knowledge as I am sure it would compliment it well.
Just thought I'd mention it in case you were unfamiliar with Wyckoff/VSA as you might like to explore that avenue. At the end of the day it's all about keeping it clean, simple and profitable!

Best
David

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click03 View Post
I am finding MTP works so well with so many other indicators,especially support and resistance. Take a look at using it with the APA waves. It has been interesting.

Love the site Big Mike.


@click03, what is APA waves? Is that another indicator? If so where can it be downloaded? Thanks

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flipper26 View Post
@click03, what is APA waves? Is that another indicator? If so where can it be downloaded? Thanks

@flipper26
You can search for apa zones - i think that is meant. I haven't looked into these zones yet.

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I have never been able to effectively combine anything with MTP - zones, volume bars, VSA, Profiles. But Order flow is showing some promise.

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Deucalion View Post
I have never been able to effectively combine anything with MTP - zones, volume bars, VSA, Profiles. But Order flow is showing some promise.

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Hi Deucalion,

I recently dusted off my MTP out of curiosity. I started with MTP about 3 years ago, but could never get consistent profitability with it and got too p**sed off with constantly being pipped out of what would become good trades. I subsequently discovered Wyckoff and through that VSA and realised that MTP was struggling to deal with springs and up-thrusts. I then came across Cumulative Delta Volume analysis via FulcrumTrader's webinars on this site. I now trade delta, but use Wyckoff to frame price action and VSA is always in the back of my mind.
I dusted off MTP out of interest to see if the DP zones would be useful as an adjunct for Wyckoff in targeting likely areas to look for reversals when delta divergences occur and to give an idea as to target levels to watch. I can't say I've any conclusions intra-day as yet as it's a pain running a 3rd platform (I run IRT and NT7 but have the MTP stand-alone) on the one pc due to data feed restrictions and it's only been a few days so higher TFs will be a longer term proposition. The MTP software can be uncannily accurate at times though.
I'd be interested in your thoughts/impressions and I'd be happy to compare and contrast if you are interested in so doing.

Best
David

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 -1812)
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SisyphusStone View Post
Hi Deucalion,

I recently dusted off my MTP out of curiosity. I started with MTP about 3 years ago, but could never get consistent profitability with it and got too p**sed off with constantly being pipped out of what would become good trades. I subsequently discovered Wyckoff and through that VSA and realised that MTP was struggling to deal with springs and up-thrusts. I then came across Cumulative Delta Volume analysis via FulcrumTrader's webinars on this site. I now trade delta, but use Wyckoff to frame price action and VSA is always in the back of my mind.
I dusted off MTP out of interest to see if the DP zones would be useful as an adjunct for Wyckoff in targeting likely areas to look for reversals when delta divergences occur and to give an idea as to target levels to watch. I can't say I've any conclusions intra-day as yet as it's a pain running a 3rd platform (I run IRT and NT7 but have the MTP stand-alone) on the one pc due to data feed restrictions and it's only been a few days so higher TFs will be a longer term proposition. The MTP software can be uncannily accurate at times though.
I'd be interested in your thoughts/impressions and I'd be happy to compare and contrast if you are interested in so doing.

Best
David

LOL, so MTP seems just like the stone, condemned by the trading Gods, seemingly uphill?

I would hate to say that MTP does not work in these decimalized markets, because this year I have been sub standard all this year, but ironically, it has been MTP's much bigger wins that have kept me afloat. It helps to watch the volume around the DP zones. DP's played on high TF

And more or less, the volume and market structure will give clues to me whether a DP or automatic signal should even be considered. You said it yourself, MTP will signal several potent formations, so the idea is good, the trick is to identify how to stay in that idea without getting pipped out.

You can use limit orders near the ATRs, or a moving average or watch the volume to play it, something to refine the idea, thats all. I found using ATRs is a good way (but it might force you to stay out of the market a lot, as one misses alot of trades). So far, like I said amongst all the things I have tried, OF seems to show me promise. And I use NT addon.

MTP is the basis of my trading, and its such an elegant way of framing the market - like poetry. It is often wrong, but when its right, its beautiful. I will never forgo it, when its right, it makes my week or month in a single trade. So I can live with being 50% wrong.

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Deucalion View Post
LOL, so MTP seems just like the stone, condemned by the trading Gods, seemingly uphill?

I would hate to say that MTP does not work in these decimalized markets, because this year I have been sub standard all this year, but ironically, it has been MTP's much bigger wins that have kept me afloat. It helps to watch the volume around the DP zones. DP's played on high TF

And more or less, the volume and market structure will give clues to me whether a DP or automatic signal should even be considered. You said it yourself, MTP will signal several potent formations, so the idea is good, the trick is to identify how to stay in that idea without getting pipped out.

You can use limit orders near the ATRs, or a moving average or watch the volume to play it, something to refine the idea, thats all. I found using ATRs is a good way (but it might force you to stay out of the market a lot, as one misses alot of trades). So far, like I said amongst all the things I have tried, OF seems to show me promise. And I use NT addon.

MTP is the basis of my trading, and its such an elegant way of framing the market - like poetry. It is often wrong, but when its right, its beautiful. I will never forgo it, when its right, it makes my week or month in a single trade. So I can live with being 50% wrong.

That's the first time I've heard MTP described in terms of a poetic analogy - mine has frequently been rather more in the old Anglo Saxon 4-letter word vocabulary, typically having just been ticked out of another 10+R trade!

Nice idea with the ATR. If you've not encountered delta vol, but interested in order flow, I would strongly recommend you watch Fulcrum's webinars. Attached is a very messy working chart - I'll clean it up later if you're interested - tho' no MTP with it I'm afraid.

Top pane: 1440 tick with wave volumes (a nod to Weis)
2nd pane: cumulative delta volume (trades lifted on bid vs ask)
3rd pane: order book 'pressure' (ie limit order trades)
Aqua and fuchsia lines key low and high delta. yellow lines are reg and hidden divergences between delta and price.

Price at 1406.75 - the mark-up bar from 1404 gets the sellers from 1407.5 to puke taking the delta higher than the prior high, but no follow-thro' buying occurs and price makes a divergent lower low. 5 bar pull-back and then an up-thrust to test the high but little buying as shown by the lack of rise in the delta and order book. 3 bars later a lovely wyckoffian mark-down bar sets price off to 1397.75. Sideways churn and a MU bar sees price chop upwards but no buying on the delta and order book. Finally the sellers from 1399 puke at 1401/2 and we get a short squeeze to 1407 but we fail to make a higher high and delta is slightly lower than prior high showing shorts are starting to hold (strong hands) and the order book is significantly lower. From that point on you can see the pressure from the order book limit orders. The divergence built down to 1402 from longs holding from 1403.5 results in a pop to 1405.25 but fails to bring in any break-out buying and price rolls and the longs start to puke. etc etc.

Loads of longs puking into the close now. If you watch carefully where and when certain levels are established you can often get an insight into when they will hold or puke eg the 1406.75 puke of the o/night longs that tried to push the market up just after yesterday's close.
You can use renkos instead and they will give clear buy/sell signal bars but sometimes you can get an earlier entry using tick bars where you get a clear volume-backed mark-up/down bar which would be lost with renkos. Unfortunately MTP stand-alone doesn't handle tick charts which makes it a bit harder to compare apples with apples viz. MTP
Just added an updated chart.
As an aside, if you use - or anyone reading this - median lines I noticed the other day that Shane Blankenship (Tim Morge's partner) has a really good free webinar at IB from Nov 8th in which he demonstrates his 'Pendulum pull-back' technique for locating potential pull-back price zones using MLs. Anyone who follows Morge/Shane will be familiar with this technique.

Hope that's of interest, if a little long-winded! Best get back to my rolling or Damocles will get me!

SS

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 -1812)
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SisyphusStone View Post
That's the first time I've heard MTP described in terms of a poetic analogy - mine has frequently been rather more in the old Anglo Saxon 4-letter word vocabulary, typically having just been ticked out of another 10+R trade!

Nice idea with the ATR. If you've not encountered delta vol, but interested in order flow, I would strongly recommend you watch Fulcrum's webinars. Attached is a very messy working chart - I'll clean it up later if you're interested - tho' no MTP with it I'm afraid.

Top pane: 1440 tick with wave volumes (a nod to Weis)
2nd pane: cumulative delta volume (trades lifted on bid vs ask)
3rd pane: order book 'pressure' (ie limit order trades)
Aqua and fuchsia lines key low and high delta. yellow lines are reg and hidden divergences between delta and price.

Price at 1406.75 - the mark-up bar from 1404 gets the sellers from 1407.5 to puke taking the delta higher than the prior high, but no follow-thro' buying occurs and price makes a divergent lower low. 5 bar pull-back and then an up-thrust to test the high but little buying as shown by the lack of rise in the delta and order book. 3 bars later a lovely wyckoffian mark-down bar sets price off to 1397.75. Sideways churn and a MU bar sees price chop upwards but no buying on the delta and order book. Finally the sellers from 1399 puke at 1401/2 and we get a short squeeze to 1407 but we fail to make a higher high and delta is slightly lower than prior high showing shorts are starting to hold (strong hands) and the order book is significantly lower. From that point on you can see the pressure from the order book limit orders. The divergence built down to 1402 from longs holding from 1403.5 results in a pop to 1405.25 but fails to bring in any break-out buying and price rolls and the longs start to puke. etc etc.

Loads of longs puking into the close now. If you watch carefully where and when certain levels are established you can often get an insight into when they will hold or puke eg the 1406.75 puke of the o/night longs that tried to push the market up just after yesterday's close.
You can use renkos instead and they will give clear buy/sell signal bars but sometimes you can get an earlier entry using tick bars where you get a clear volume-backed mark-up/down bar which would be lost with renkos. Unfortunately MTP stand-alone doesn't handle tick charts which makes it a bit harder to compare apples with apples viz. MTP
Just added an updated chart.
As an aside, if you use - or anyone reading this - median lines I noticed the other day that Shane Blankenship (Tim Morge's partner) has a really good free webinar at IB from Nov 8th in which he demonstrates his 'Pendulum pull-back' technique for locating potential pull-back price zones using MLs. Anyone who follows Morge/Shane will be familiar with this technique.

Hope that's of interest, if a little long-winded! Best get back to my rolling or Damocles will get me!

SS

Appreciate the time you have taken. CD seems indeed to pointed out a good div there. Unfortunately I have a conceptual issue with CD as a an arbitrary accumulation of volume, and the way it is constructed (despite Fulcrum's use of resting inventory...it works for him... different strokes for different folks I guess). It just doesn't seem to appeal to me.

Next is IRT, as little as I like Ninja, I like IRT even less. Your granularity is neat, but if you went a TF larger, like so.......you would see what I was seeing.....and we are so stretched, that a new breakout is hardly the most likely outcome. Trend strength is clearly flagging, and a new breakout will likely end in a DP anyway, I was simply playing the top end range for shorts on the smaller TF using OF to spot aggressive sellers, which was clearly evident today

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