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IRT vs CRITICAL DATA or RANCHO DINERO
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IRT vs CRITICAL DATA or RANCHO DINERO

  #31 (permalink)
in a meditative state...
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LS Chad View Post
Linn Software has had the same development team in place for over 18 years. That development team is putting just as much effort into improving the product in February 2014 as it did in February 1996, although now armed with a great deal more knowledge and experience. Every month, we add more value to the product. Every month, we react to changes in underlying technologies to keep the product humming along optimally. We anticipate this will still be the case in 10 years, 20 years. We don't have a "finished product" to sale you a lifetime license to, we have a continually improving product. That's one of the reasons we use a monthly pricing model. This month, you're paying for one product, next month, you're paying for a better product, and in April, even better. The product in April 1998 would be of no value to you today, so that lifetime license wouldn't be much of a "lifetime". If we tried to put a price on our product today, we would have to factor in future development and that is very difficult to forecast. I think the monthly pricing model is very healthy on both ends: it motivates the trader to cover his monthly costs and it motivates the developer to keep making the product better due to constant reliance on the monthly leases. A lifetime license is something we tried long ago. It just did not work for us and we've been very happy with the monthly pricing model for a long time. We've been doing this a long time and don't plan on stopping, and we just feel that paying monthly works best all the way around. If we had spent a year hiring someone to develop something for us, and then wanted to sale our finished product, it would be different. But the development team will be hard a work today making the product better.


Used IRT for many months, loved it, continues to be THE reference when talking about order flow analysis and continues to be one of the 3 platforms I advise when people ask me which platform to use when referring to profiling.

I also am one of those that don't like the monthly subscription.
Monthly expenses are already too high, and even though $80 a month not being an issue here, it adds to other new monthly expenses that you some how have and after a while it starts to weight on your bank account.

Chad is a great guy, a professional, but I couldn't disagree with him more on this subject.

Looking at Linn Software perspective I think it's a much more profitable model than the lifetime license one. If we look at Multicharts or Ninja which charges $1500 for their lifetime license, from the day they sell a license, all upgrades are free to the client.
So we can say that from that day their income for it ends whereas IRT, with a monthly subscription, generates a non ending monthly income for Linn.

In the case of MC and NT, since they license their platforms to brokers, we can say that ends up compensating the lifetime license model whereas IRT, as far as I know, the only source of income is from the monthly subscriptions from their clients.

So when comparing a monthly to a lifetime license, in terms of platform upgrades they should be identical. There's no reason why the upgrade model should be different between models.

A monthly subscription is a business model that Linn adopted and that's fine. Some people prefer to have monthly subscriptions others prefer to pay a lifetime license.

I just think the reasons Chad mentioned in his post makes no sense.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die

Last edited by arnie; February 26th, 2014 at 10:01 AM.
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  #32 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.linnsoft.com 
Milton, GA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT, MarketDelta
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From a users perspective, I can certainly understand why a lifetime license might be an attractive option, especially for a product that has a long history of continual development. And we would certainly never say never (more on this later)....

But there are plenty of examples of products for which one-time payments makes a great deal of sense: a car, a house, dinner at a restaurant. Those product are finished. What you see at purchase is what you get. You have an agreed upon price based on exactly what you get at time of purchase. There are other product for which this makes less sense....products which continue to develop and which continue to require a great deal of resources to maintain the products level of viability, reliability, functionality. Example of this might be phone service, cable service, dental care, health care. You're not gonna go to AT&T and pay then $2000 for a lifetime of service and data. You're not gonna go to your attorney and give him $3000 for a lifetime of representation and legal advice. I feel the development, support, and service we provide month makes our product a good fit for this category.

That being said, I would never say never. And we are open and receptive to any and all opinions on this. If there was an option to buy a lifetime license of Investor/RT or MarketDelta, what would you be willing to pay? Do you think the payment of that lifetime license should include future upgrades? If not, what is the recommend method for pricing for upgrades? Let's say a user bought a lifetime license today of version 11.3.1. He's then locked into 11.3.1 but in 12 months, he wants to upgrade to version 11.8.2 and get the latest work. Would he pay the equivalent of 12 months of monthly licenses to get 11.8.2? We welcome your feedback on this.

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  #33 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.linnsoft.com 
Milton, GA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT, MarketDelta
Broker/Data: DTN IQFeed
Favorite Futures: ES
 
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Posts: 150 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 2 given, 135 received


Another important angle on this is support. It's very difficult to support a product where the user base is using 30 different version of the software. A number of options that were not available in 10.1 are now available in 11.1. A number of things that might now work in 10.1 work just fine in 11.1. Keeping up with what was added or what was fixed from version to version from a support perspective is a tall order. We like all of our users to have the latest and greatest at any given time. It's what's best for the user and it's what's best for us. It gives you access to everything we've done, and it makes it much easier for us to give you the best support.

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  #34 (permalink)
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LS Chad View Post
Linn Software has had the same development team in place for over 18 years. That development team is putting just as much effort into improving the product in February 2014 as it did in February 1996, although now armed with a great deal more knowledge and experience. Every month, we add more value to the product. Every month, we react to changes in underlying technologies to keep the product humming along optimally. We anticipate this will still be the case in 10 years, 20 years. We don't have a "finished product" to sale you a lifetime license to, we have a continually improving product. That's one of the reasons we use a monthly pricing model. This month, you're paying for one product, next month, you're paying for a better product, and in April, even better. The product in April 1998 would be of no value to you today, so that lifetime license wouldn't be much of a "lifetime". If we tried to put a price on our product today, we would have to factor in future development and that is very difficult to forecast. I think the monthly pricing model is very healthy on both ends: it motivates the trader to cover his monthly costs and it motivates the developer to keep making the product better due to constant reliance on the monthly leases. A lifetime license is something we tried long ago. It just did not work for us and we've been very happy with the monthly pricing model for a long time. We've been doing this a long time and don't plan on stopping, and we just feel that paying monthly works best all the way around. If we had spent a year hiring someone to develop something for us, and then wanted to sale our finished product, it would be different. But the development team will be hard a work today making the product better.

Thanks Chad,

I do work in software development myself in institutional banking software development, and I do understand that the product life cycle means delivering a product to market that can then be enhanced and improved upon with experience and technological optimization / bug-fixing etc. And also that the cost of development is also often underestimated by the end consumer(s), and you have to make a living at the end of the day :-) completely agree with you there.

Also, in my professional space I've noticed the tendency in recent years for pricing models in software moving into an on-demand space (e.g., costing per core, per job, per usage - more granular essentially). Certainly that creates a clear cost transparency for the consumer. Most of the time it can be cost effective, for example I'm using cloud for risk grid compute power and we only pay for the time we use. Saving a lot of cash compared to traditional setups.

However, a pricing model for the retail market is only marketable (to me) if itís at the right price point, as I do see it as an fixed investment as opposed to service subscription (like for example a broker or data Ė which literally is a necessity). To be fair to you, I actually think that your service is decently priced compared to some out-there Iím looking at. I've seen there is certainly a premium in tools due to (i) fees passed on to user from CME monthly licensing for this sub-market of order flow tools, as well as (ii) undeniable development costs. Perhaps that prices me out of your product..

Personally my preference is to buy rather than rent :-) even though I certainly understand why youíve gone down that road. That is unless I can see a highly unique selling point/quantum leaps in functionality month-on-month that I can't do business without (I liken that to broker/data level of necessity Ė and even for those Iíd look to find a broker that gives me the same functionality at the best cost). From a personal p.o.v. monthly fixed costs can quickly add up hence Iím happier owning a product and being able to write down my expenditure as I earn rather than having the burden of a high cost that forces trading activity every month. I don't want to offend you by saying that but as a consumer I'm just being frank. Really do respect the hard work that goes into software having worked in development myself.

Any reviews of Chadís product for me guys?

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  #35 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Futures Experience: Advanced
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LS Chad View Post
From a users perspective, I can certainly understand why a lifetime license might be an attractive option, especially for a product that has a long history of continual development. And we would certainly never say never (more on this later)....

But there are plenty of examples of products for which one-time payments makes a great deal of sense: a car, a house, dinner at a restaurant. Those product are finished. What you see at purchase is what you get. You have an agreed upon price based on exactly what you get at time of purchase. There are other product for which this makes less sense....products which continue to develop and which continue to require a great deal of resources to maintain the products level of viability, reliability, functionality. Example of this might be phone service, cable service, dental care, health care. You're not gonna go to AT&T and pay then $2000 for a lifetime of service and data. You're not gonna go to your attorney and give him $3000 for a lifetime of representation and legal advice. I feel the development, support, and service we provide month makes our product a good fit for this category.

That being said, I would never say never. And we are open and receptive to any and all opinions on this. If there was an option to buy a lifetime license of Investor/RT or MarketDelta, what would you be willing to pay? Do you think the payment of that lifetime license should include future upgrades? If not, what is the recommend method for pricing for upgrades? Let's say a user bought a lifetime license today of version 11.3.1. He's then locked into 11.3.1 but in 12 months, he wants to upgrade to version 11.8.2 and get the latest work. Would he pay the equivalent of 12 months of monthly licenses to get 11.8.2? We welcome your feedback on this.

It's all about the features Chad, if I see a suite of tools that I cant live without I'd try them then buy. I do think that I would want upgrades included (in an ideal world). But certainly I wouldn't pay a repeat fee of the same value every year (e.g. 2k, or 3k annually) as you've mentioned. Even for the best product if it was at that price I'd think twice about the value of doing that - I don't think I could justify it. However a model I've seen before, is a lifetime fee, and a reduced fee for updates.

But that's just my 2-cents.

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  #36 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.linnsoft.com 
Milton, GA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT, MarketDelta
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Posts: 150 since Apr 2010
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sands, if there is anything specific you are looking for that you'd like me to show you in the software, let me know.

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  #37 (permalink)
in a meditative state...
Portugal
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts, Jigsaw
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LS Chad View Post
If there was an option to buy a lifetime license of Investor/RT or MarketDelta, what would you be willing to pay? Do you think the payment of that lifetime license should include future upgrades? If not, what is the recommend method for pricing for upgrades? Let's say a user bought a lifetime license today of version 11.3.1. He's then locked into 11.3.1 but in 12 months, he wants to upgrade to version 11.8.2 and get the latest work. Would he pay the equivalent of 12 months of monthly licenses to get 11.8.2? We welcome your feedback on this.


I understand what you're saying.
On the business side it makes more sense for a company in constant development a monthly subscription, no question there, especially if that is their main way of income.

Offering a lifetime license without free upgrades is like shooting your own foot. Don't even think about it. That does not exist anymore. Lifetime license is all included, all upgrades for the entire life period, hence the lifetime license name.
For a company to offer such product it needs to find some alternative way of income to support it.

A couple of years ago it would be the norm for companies to charge every 3 or 6 months a fee for each upgrade but customers started to complain and companies were forced to adapt and offer the upgrades.

Personally I always thought your business arrangement with Market Delta quite restrictive to you guys. Different companies, the same platform but Market Delta gets the higher income side of the business, the footprint and the broker connection though IRT now also offer broker connectivity through MD.
But then again, why pay what MD charges per month to have footprint and broker connectivity when there's a platform that offer all that at a much lower rate?

I apologize for being here as if I knew how to run a business.
You guys should obviously do what is more cost effective to you and only you.

We as users just need to do our analysis and compare what is more cost effective for us.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #38 (permalink)
in a meditative state...
Portugal
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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sands View Post
Any reviews of Chadís product for me guys?

Hi @sands

Like I said, I'm not using IRT anymore but I can tell you that IRT is a great product even with its idiosyncrasies.
Every trader using other platforms with order flow tools is always comparing those tools with IRT's since they are always one step above the competition.

Chad is that guy that is always there ready to help.

If I become half a percent smarter each year, I'll be a genius by the time I die
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  #39 (permalink)
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arnie View Post
Hi @sands

Like I said, I'm not using IRT anymore but I can tell you that IRT is a great product even with its idiosyncrasies.
Every trader using other platforms with order flow tools is always comparing those tools with IRT's since they are always one step above the competition.

Chad is that guy that is always there ready to help.

What exactly is the edge in functional terms in your opinion?

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  #40 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.linnsoft.com 
Milton, GA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT, MarketDelta
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Posts: 150 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 2 given, 135 received


Arnie, I don't think your question was addressed to me, but let me give you a brief viewof what makes us stand apart. Over the years, we've taken ideas and turned them into indicators. We've then taken those indicators and continually infused them with innovation and functionality until there's just not much they can't do. And we do this all ourselves internally instead of relying on 3rd party development. This allows us to make sure it's done right AND it's done efficiently and runs efficiently. A few key examples of this are the Session Statistics Indicator, Profile Indicator, and Volume Breakdown Indicator. All three have a mountain of functionality built into one indicator and one small dialog. Take a look at this image to give you an idea of the options Session Statistics provide. Just about any time-based statistical combination imaginable is available. And we offer 150 built-in indicators as well as the ability to write your own, but these are just a few of the more popular and robust ones.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


The Session Statistics Indicator was originally added simply to give users a way to plot the Initial Balance (Highest High of First 60 Minutes of Session), and it grew from their as the ideas and suggestions started flowing in.


Last edited by LS Chad; February 26th, 2014 at 01:53 PM.
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