Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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This is a public notice that AMP GLOBAL CLEARING aka AMP FUTURES TRADING has filed a lawsuit against futures.io (formerly BMT) regarding posts on futures.io (formerly BMT). This is not the first time AMP TRADING has used attorneys in an attempt to manipulate what is shared on the site.
Attached to this thread you will find PDF copies of court documents. I plan to post further public filings as they are filed with the court.
Unfortunately, attempts to settle this dispute have so far not produced a resolution.
This means I am preparing to go to trial. I will be fighting to preserve the rights of posters on futures.io (formerly BMT) to freely express their opinions and share their experiences.
Due to this, I am starting a fundraiser campaign to raise money and support the fight.
I will provide instructions shortly on how you can send funds, stay tuned.
PLEASE NOTE, CONTRIBUTIONS TO futures.io (formerly BMT) ARE NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE.
Today the judge issued the ruling, an excerpt is below (bold and underline are mine):
Order: For the reasons stated above, Defendants' motions to dismiss Plaintiffs First Amended Complaint pursuant to 5/2-6-19 and 5/2-6 15 are sustained. Plaintiffs …
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
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I have added a button to the top of futures.io (formerly BMT) pages that says "Support our legal defense fund". If you would like to support our legal defense fund, you can click on that button and it will take you to PayPal.
You can enter any gift amount you like from $1 to $14,000.00. This gift is not tax deductible.
I know I can count on the support of the community, so thank you in advance.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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At the March 10 hearing Judge Flannery notified us that the case had been transferred to another judge within the same division. Therefore, we re-noticed the same two motions to be heard before the new judge on March 17.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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The hearing was held on March 17, 2014. The parties agreed to a briefing schedule regarding Big Mike Trading's Motion to Dismiss the Complaint. AMP's response is due April 21, 2014, the reply is due May 12, 2014 and the hearing is May 20, 2014.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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After requesting a 5 week period to respond to futures.io (formerly BMT)'s Motion to Dismiss the Complaint, AMP filed a motion requesting 14 additional days to file its response.
Their "Motion to Extend the Time to Respond to The Motion to Dismiss" is attached.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
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Hi guys,
I was hoping this lawsuit would over by now, but unfortunately it is not.
I want to thank all of you that have helped with the fundraising efforts in respect to the legal expenses incurred for defending against AMP.
As of this post, we have not raised enough funds to cover the legal expenses incurred. I will stop the fundraising should we get to the point where the funds raised are approximate to the funds spent.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
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I apologize that in the above post the PDF document has a "black" thumbnail. This is a software error that has been occurring on a large number of PDF's on the forum, and cannot be resolved until a new software update. If you click on the black thumbnail, you will download the PDF document which is in fact totally legible.
For this reason I embedded each individual page of the PDF above.
As of this posting, the funds raised by donation are not equal to the expense of the case. Thank you to those that have made a donation and to everyone for their support.
I would like to once again thank everyone that has made a contribution to our legal fund. Once the funds raised are approximately equal to the costs of the case, I will post a notice in this thread.
I had read every page of the various filings, and my (uninformed) opinion was that the complaint had no merit, but I'm glad that the judge thought the same.
It's good to have this nonsense no longer hanging over futures.io (formerly BMT).
Well done.
Bob.
The following user says Thank You to bobwest for this post:
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
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Trading: Futures & Crypto
Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,468 given,
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It is good when justice prevails. And the judge agreed in the strongest sense, by issuing the dismissal with prejudice. AMP cannot re-file the suit, so all this should finally be behind us.
It's a big win not just for futures.io (formerly BMT) and our community, but for the entire industry. It's nice to be recognized for standing up and fighting for what is right.
That's really good news indeed...congrats on your (and finally futures.io (formerly BMT)'s) win Mike!
"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
The following user says Thank You to Daytrader999 for this post:
The way AMP tries to throw its weight around and their general arrogance and unethical behavior is disgusting. I hope news gets out about this through the various online trading communities. Hopefully new traders looking for a broker will think twice about who they want to do business with when considering AMP.
Diversification is the only free lunch
The following 6 users say Thank You to DarkPoolTrading for this post:
Optimus takes the good, the bad and the ugly..and responds to people even when criticism prevails, and that is how a firm should behave. I don’t like people who sue because they spend their resources on BS instead of advancing their firm. Mike, congrats and hope that this case will set precedence in the legal world
The following 5 users say Thank You to Jfairtrade for this post:
Congrats. I have been following this carefully. Especially since this was taking place in my hometown and familiar with all firms involved. I hope this sets a legal precedent to protect free speech on forums, and honest reviews/replies. As well as deterring larger firms who will blatantly threaten the little guy with legal action in order to make them bend to their will. Mostly out of fear that they will lose and have to fight a giant. On a personal level, great going to take the fight to them, win or lose that was a gallant step. But winning makes it all the sweeter. As a member of the forum, glad futures.io (formerly BMT) is the way it is and has the balls to keep it that way.
The following 6 users say Thank You to treydog999 for this post:
Congrats Mike! I'm sure it's great to get that weight off of your shoulder. Time to move forward. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to futures.io (formerly BMT) 5.0!
As a certified shorthand reporter (I create transcripts like those higher up in this thread), we never like to see these cases resolve or settle (big grin) because it means fewer pages for us folks, but in this case, I'll make an exception ;-)
Hap
The following user says Thank You to Hapster for this post:
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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What thread? Be specific. I have a strong feeling you've not read all the posts and don't have all the facts.
As for sponsors, if you spent a minute searching you would find threads where reviews are posted. Even for site sponsors. And those reviews can be both good or bad, so long as they are genuine. Stop trying to create drama.
Some vendors resort to creating fake accounts and disguising their identity, posting fake reviews. Then they get banned. Some of them don't take it well and act like 5 year olds who had their toys taken away. They go to other websites and whine and cry, and naturally they don't tell the while story about their fraud or deception, or even that they were banned. Instead they just make shit up about the site and try to confuse the issues.
AMP acts like they don't know why they were banned, but it's just an act. They were told, and they also receive the message each time they try to use the site. All of their duplicate accounts also receive that message. It's also documented in the threads for anyone to read and reach their own conclusions.
You should really be careful who you give your allegiance to.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
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From ET user Pekelo, posted on ET:
I wanted to address this, because it is completely false.
AMP was banned a long time ago, years I believe, well before the post you mention took place. Your facts are completely false. They were banned due to their actions and behaviors on the site, after they were given MULTIPLE warnings. After they were banned, they created more accounts (a violation of our terms). I won't go into details, but lets just say what they did on those accounts was more than reason enough to ban them again and again.
The judge and the law disagree with you. Since the complaint was about AMP, it does have to do with trading. Do you work for AMP or something or are you just that naive in general? If you read the transcript, you will see the judge specifically questioned why Stone wasn't sued. You can read AMP's response and judge for yourself.
@Big Mike, while it does serve a limited purpose to respond to these kinds of posts, you shouldn't let it get to you, or spend much energy on it. This could be like an unlimited game of whack-a-mole; whack one and another one pops up.
You're right, and AMP lost the suit. The judge found nothing at all in it that stood up. You would think it would be hard for someone to either misinterpret or misrepresent that, but evidently some people will.
So yes, whack some of those moles, maybe, but the record does not need to be set straight. It is perfectly straight. After a short while, it is obvious that anyone not understanding or misstating that record is either never going to be convinced, or isn't really all that sincere in what they are writing anyway.
The judge gave the verdict, and that is the final word on all this.
Bob.
The following 9 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
I'm a lawyer in CA, and I'd sure go for it given the state of the CDA law at the time and the stupidity of the JOnes v. Dirty World district court opinion. There's also malicious prosecution:
A malicious prosecution claim “can lead to a more expansive recovery than sanctions, [but] it is also substantially more difficult to navigate successfully,” Mr. Mann and Mr. Haarlow wrote. “To state a claim for malicious prosecution, a plaintiff must demonstrate that (a) he or she won a ‘favorable termination’ of the suit; [t]he defendant brought it (b) without probable cause but (c) with malice, and (d) the plaintiff suffered arrest, seizure of property, or other special damage beyond the normal expense, time, or annoyance arising from an ordinary form of legal controversy.”
In any event, congrats. No AMP business for me, this seemed vindictive.
The following 5 users say Thank You to trader1272 for this post:
futures.io (formerly BMT) HAS WON, AMP HAS LOST. GAME OVER.
It's a shame it took so long. Actually it's a shame they couldn't have just sued Stone instead, but I guess as they put it "he has no money.,.., I can chase that cherry 'til the cows come home."
funny how the world works
R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
The following 3 users say Thank You to Itchymoku for this post:
I have a very hard time wondering why people dont just mind their own business. It is child mentality to have the need to "want to be heard", the need for seeking attention, being at the center of the world and everything revolves around me. I know because I have one at home.
This guy is posting his views on another forum that obviously is a competitor to futures.io (formerly BMT) and his anticipated response to his post is obvious - agreement. The virtual world fuels this behavior even more since people are no longer sitting in front of each other and saying things directly - instead they are taking jabs while shielding themselves behind anonymous names. Cowards and spineless is the category that comes to mind. So much that is said on forums and the virtual world in general that will not be said if the parties involved would be face to face. Very few people have principles and stand by them no matter what and very few have the guts to say what they do and do what they say no matter what. You have demonstrated that Mike. I agree with @bobwest on the whack-a-mole metaphor. Let it go.
The following 5 users say Thank You to Hulk for this post:
Trading: Index and Bond Futures and Options, Stocks and Stock Options
Posts: 14 since Jan 2012
Thanks: 14 given,
15
received
I have red with attention every line of the documents you have posted, either on futures.io (formerly BMT) and AMP' side. Non just for curiosity, but because I always try to base my personal opinion on solid ground rather than word of mouth. So that if I make a mistake I can't avoid to make, I do it in good faith.
Of course I am glad the judge has closed the case in your favour, so that nobody gets damaged too hard. Even more I like that the decision seems to be very close to the wisdom of who's not familiar with legal technicalisms. I mean, common sense makes me say they pushed this issue too far, showing a quarrelsome attitude most people don't agree with. Finding out that the law (even if it's not my country's law) confirms that view, make me feel good.
The following 3 users say Thank You to Beefheart for this post:
Well, Mike, I went over there and read every post (to date; I'm not going back).
Not everything that was said was objectionable or wrong, and some posters supported you. I do think that the main critics got the point at issue wrong, which is that the person who runs this kind of site is not responsible or liable for what a poster independently posts. The judge was really clear that AMP had no case, and that there was nothing else at issue, and said so.
There also was some stuff that I don't agree with, but shrugged off. Life's too short to care about some things, and some opinions....
There was, however, one guy who had joined over there in "July 2014" and who had 7 posts (I counted 5 of them on that one thread.) He was foul-mouthed and rudely critical of you. It's obvious that he had just opened an account there in order to do these posts, and had an ax to grind and no scruples about how he ground it.
On futures.io (formerly BMT), the guy would have been banned the first time, for being that rude to anybody. It was an eye-opener to me; I obviously have led a sheltered internet life, being used to site administration that doesn't put up with that kind of thing.
No idea who he is, but I do expect that he's been banned from here (otherwise why the beef?), and I think he has just proved that it was a good idea to do so.
Bob.
The following user says Thank You to bobwest for this post:
craptastic's posts are, well craptastic! I think I'd rather read /b/ than have to read the rest of that thread. Man they are really vindictive. Looks like that's Amp's stronghold considering the number of amp ads they have on the site.
R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
The following 3 users say Thank You to Itchymoku for this post:
Congrats Big Mike! For the money, from what I can tell of the rest of the world, just whip up 1 or 2 indicators with a lot of bells and whistles (Don't forget the arrows and alert for Fat Tails) and you'll be all set !
Seriously though, thank you for defending the rights of the investment / speculator community and providing such a sound island in the middle of a world full of sharks.
The following 5 users say Thank You to tracer888 for this post:
ET is a damn asylum and bone is the most arrogant person on ET when i had a set of conversation with him,as far as his opinion about the lwasuit is concerned,i`d say this..... 1:11Welcome to Prime Time! - YouTube
I'm not sure why you consider the need to continue to defend yourself. You were sued, you vigorously defended your position and won the case in front of a judge in a court of law. That's all that matters.
I think digging out posts from other forums and responding to them here is beneath you and a waste of energy. It's time to move on and focus on more positive things. Go and build that nice house, sit on the beach and kickback.
There is nothing more to say apart from Congratulations!
The following 7 users say Thank You to djkiwi for this post:
Excellent post. Mike there will always be folks that don't like you (same for all of us). Please don't subject yourself to their negatively by seeking them out. If they succeed in provoking you, then they win. Don't let them!
The following 9 users say Thank You to BeachTrader for this post:
@Big Mike....first of all I want to congratulate you on your victory in the courts.
I was involved in a lawsuit myself where a disgruntled employer decided to sue me for breach of confidence and I naively got on my high horse and took the bit in my teeth(I was innocent but did not realize he did this for fun and being a bastard) I won the pretrial, he won the appeal and it died there never going to court (he knew in a real trial he would lose and I was tired of the process) but those battles cost me about $20,000, some self esteem and a good portion of what was left of my marriage. SO...I know the stresses and strains of the process and I also know how it messes with one's head.
Yours is without a doubt the best stock forum. I am very much a minority in this community but the quality of people using your website is such that I never felt that I did not belong here. You don't allow backbiting and intolerance .... and I appreciate that more than you can know. I have participated in probably 4-5 other forums over the last decade...some of which were (as it turned out) were simply pumpers themselves who tolerated only stocks that they were pumping (they gave out a news letter 2 hours into trading). I like the variety of this site though I have put my foot in it on occasion knowing little or nothing of futures and options trading . I like the ability of explaining my thoughts and ideas through my journal. Finally I like the international quality of the members.
As others have said before me.... IT IS OVER.... time to put it behind you and focus on investing and trying out interesting ways to make this already great site better.
Well done Mike, hope it wasn't too stressful. I refrained from posting about my experiences with Amp during the case, and there is little point since it's water under the bridge now, suffice to say the reports on your website on their customer service were highly accurate.
"The primary thing required to obtain what you want from life, is simply the will to pursue it, and the faith to believe it is possible." - Author Unknown
"The ability to maintain discipline and stick to the rules is the hallmark of the experienced successful trader" - Curtis Faith
The following user says Thank You to PositiveDeviant for this post:
Wow just read the transcript, better than reading an action novel, thanks.
If you can, what is the Total Court Cost divided by the number of Active users on Big Mike Trading?
Having this would give active users a better idea of what each "Active User's" fair share should be if they want to contribute or to contribute a second time as it appears there is still a money deficit regarding this court case.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,468 given,
98,283
received
Somewhere around ~ 17k, I haven't got the final invoice yet for July's billable hours.
It's hard to give a "users" number. 50k members, 8k visit daily. 133 have thanked post #1 of this thread, 37 have posted in the thread. There are too many wild cards, best to let everyone come up with their own figure if they want to contribute to the legal fund.
I don't know about U.S. law, but if they lost aren't they liable for all costs? Why do you have to pay costs for something where you are clearly not at fault? Doesn't make sense to me.
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
Posts: 50,004 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,468 given,
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In the US we do not have a default "loser pays" law. If we did, it would dramatically improve our legal system overnight...
My layman's understanding is that I would need to sue AMP to recover costs. It is something that hasn't been ruled out. I would like to see the "justice" in having them pay for the expenses they created, and would love to then be able to reimburse people who contributed to futures.io (formerly BMT)'s legal fund from the money recovered from AMP.
That said, it is not something I am presently pursuing. I reserve the right to change my mind of course.
Platform: "I trade, therefore, I AM!"; Theme Song: "Atomic Dog!"
Trading: EMD, 6J, ZB
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009
things turned out the way they should have!
in legal terms, when someone is told their case lacks merit, is a far greater slap in the face, than just losing...
so much for their hollow or empty barrel, since that is the latest phrase being bandied about...
what is good to know, is what we have supported, will continue!
futures.io (formerly BMT) is a constant source of information, I am glad that this is still the case, and fairplay to you Mike standing up to this challenge.
Cementing the future development of trader information, for traders globally who use this site, its great news.
Harry
The following 2 users say Thank You to harry737 for this post:
Even though I do not visit futures.io (formerly BMT) as much as I used to (not trading actively right now) I have to say I was delighted to read the post from Mike that the lawsuit had been thrown out.
It proves that David can beat Goliath and that reason can prevail. I will ever be grateful to Mike and his fellow members that gave me so much information and support in my early days trading and am happy that many more will continue to reap the benefits of such a great forum.
Well done Mike
All the best.
Never stop learning - never stop applying the knowledge.
The following user says Thank You to RTR1701 for this post:
While we're all glad of the outcome, lety's not forget how much it cost Big Mike. There's a link to making a donation at the first page of this thread. I'm making a donation NOW!
JD
The following user says Thank You to jdrower for this post:
I knew you would win -- for some reason part of me told me that you would win and you didn't have to worry about it!
Thank GOD the judge had INTEGRITY and knew that AMP was BSing. Can't believe AMP would kind of "stoop that low" really in a business that is all about the people - you know. It is not like they are in the Shipping business that is all about the boats and the containers. They are in the broker / people business and they kind of dis-respected a TON of people.
The CEO of AMP should publicly apologize to both Mike and ALL of futures.io (formerly BMT) for that dis-respect because they basically threatened with taking futures.io (formerly BMT) away from everyone here if there lawsuit would have been big enough. You know..
That is aggressive action and they were in the wrong -- so they have to admit that... come to terms with that .. learn from that and then publicly apologize to everyone here in futures.io (formerly BMT) for that.
Some will accept the apology ... some won't .. but everyone would respect the gesture (*as long as it is real of course) and it would be a step in the right direction. That is the correct way to run a business.
Also Mike -- I divided the 53,000 members by the 17,000 lawyer fee AND it just came out to 32 FREAKIN CENTS! Just 32 freakin cents if everyone gave just 32 cents right now... that would be done and over with. :O
You may have to start something like a small a kickstarter and everyone just gives 32 - 50 cents and in like 30 mins that would be over... Just talking out loud basically. You know.
Because the awesome programs already made by Fat Tails, Gomi, Cory, Resvat (*spelling) , vvhg -- are all worth ALLLLLLOOOOT More than some measly 32 cents.
You could also make it better - by maybe offering a small booklet/pdf telling something like your story as a trader and things you went thru as a trader with maybe the platforms that you use and why.. for new traders that are starting out -- they would definitely give 1 or 2 dollars.. maybe more.. You don't have to say your system just give some good tips for REALLY REALLY NEW traders. That would be worth at least a buck to the new traders for sure.
Do that Kickstarter style .. and I think this could be handled.
Cheers !
The following 4 users say Thank You to OpalDragon for this post:
It's always heart warming to hear stories of the "small guy" winning against the "machine"...thank you for fighting the good fight and giving traders such an open and honest forum for sharing information! Thanks, Mike!!
The following user says Thank You to Jillzy for this post:
To date there have been approximately ~200 contributors to the legal fund.
I also want to point out that a small number of those ~200 contributors have donated a large amount compared to the average. I believe the biggest was around $500 (I would need to check, but pretty sure). Excel is telling me the average is about $50.
Congratulations Mike ! Thank you for standing by your principles, and doing so in futures.io (formerly BMT) style ! I cannot fathom how Amp thought to gain form getting in a petty scrap like this ? Now that Ninja has entered the brokerage business, I'm guessing it's easier than ever for Amp customers to head there, fuelled by a small mindedness few will want to put up with.
I wish you the best and thank you for being a class moderator, developer, interviewer and trader!
The following user says Thank You to Shamal for this post:
First of all I join other colleagues giving my congratulations and above all, my support to the original motivation; fight for the defense of freedom of speech, thoughts and experiences.
I would also like to dump a few ideas (european notation sometimes and perhaps not proper words, my english is not bilingual):
* As futures.io (formerly BMT)F is logical and honestly asking for financial aid and as futures.io (formerly BMT)F has direct incomes from the users ($100 elite members), it would be nice to recieve a bit more information from futures.io (formerly BMT)F.
We know some things but scattered and thanks to questions from colleagues. It would be nice a clear and complete information from futures.io (formerly BMT)F as a starting point; general costs, incomes, status, etc.
From my side it would be perfect if futures.io (formerly BMT)F were even a way of living from itself (from users, sponsors, etc). Perfect!, it will be beacuse its value that really really has.
But at this point, doing things well IMO, it would be desirable to share some information as starting point as I said. I think it would be very much better if every body knows more informed if we have to say "Mike, you have to take up the membership fees", or "Mike, for some circumstances, we are not talking about some cents or a few dollars for this case, it would be reasonable talk about $25 or 50", or maybe we conclude that in fact the goal is $1 and an extended campaign of awareness among users.
So, it's important to fix a good goal. And plus, attending this, among other things, there won't be this important and unnecessary imbalances (people donating $50 or $500).
* With the information gathered so far, as some colleagues get, it seems that with about 1 - 5 dollars from the regular users, we cover this issue, and perhaps a bit more. It is also important, always IMO, a frecuently feedback about the goal covering state, and also about the mean and the imbalances.
* Assuming as good the 1 - 5 dollars goal from the regular users, among those I meet not long ago, and rescuing the issue of why "if they lost aren't they liable for all costs?", and as Mike said: "My layman's understanding is that I would need to sue AMP to recover costs".
I have to say that I would donate $10 very very much more comfortable if we go ahead trying to recover the costs from the looser because it would be finishing the job and because we have to take this opportunity to also win equal future lawsuits.
* In principle information only, but as we analyze in the forum good places to live, I suggest to open a round to analyze how best existing legislation under which a forum like futures.io (formerly BMT)F would be put to work.
This is a victory for all of us and our ability to speak our minds. It is not clear to me whether or not this result stands as a precedent that could have important consequences beyond futures.io (formerly BMT). Maybe someone here with a legal background has better insight into this. Hopefully, it does.
Because of the importance of this victory, not only to futures.io (formerly BMT) as an entity, but to each of us, Big Mike should not have to pay out one red cent to legal fees. As @OpalDragon so eloquently points out, it doesn't take much from each member to accomplish this.
This "exercise" has emphasized the one important "flaw" in the futures.io (formerly BMT) Forum and that is, that you can only it the "Thanks" button once!!
Thanks Mike,
HDT
The following user says Thank You to HighDesertTrader for this post:
@fourtiwinks - I agree with you. Also donated some time ago - a small donation by each is not much for the hours of learning and community provided from here.
The following user says Thank You to dnof for this post:
Gratz! It's kinda funny if you think about it. IMO, the plaintiffs did far more damage to their rep by engaging in this lawsuit than the posts by the defendant and the contractor could possibly have done. People get all caught up in hate and anger, they lose their minds and they act irrational.
You'd think trading would be an industry that really clamped down on the whole irrational anger/go-nuts stuff. Folks engaging in that sort of thing would fail one way or another. But apparently not, strange. Maybe they compartmentalize their lunacy.
I'm sure it's great to get that weight off of your shoulder. Time to move forward. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to futures.io (formerly 
GAME OVER.
AND it just came out to 32 FREAKIN CENTS! Just 32 freakin cents if everyone gave just 32 cents right now... that would be done and over with. :O
