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Preliminary discussion - please participate - Certified Trustworthy Vendor program
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Preliminary discussion - please participate - Certified Trustworthy Vendor program

  #51 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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mattz's Avatar
 
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I would like shed some light on the implications of the development of such a vendor program. After reading all posts, and as expected we had a variety of opinion.

There are those with a "pitch fork" mentality, and those who are are practical who say this kind of program wont help, those who don't want it because they are here to learn and finally we had also a vendor who showed a legitimate concern over the implications of such program.

So the additional question I would have is this: Would the addition of such a vendor review section contribute to the overall quality of posts and the attraction of professional members that would share their trading knowledge?
The life of a forum and sustainability depends on the core quality of posts, and the attention of those who have traded for a long time.

Forum views come from mostly readers, and not from those who participate. If we infest this site with the same old, same old, this forum could lose those who could come and add valuable content. It is quite an effort and undertaking to write market analysis and those who do that want to do it on a quality site to see that their efforts are rewarded.

I wish I could say that vendors reviews bring quality posts, but they never do. Sometimes I think that people put long posts together because it became popular to call someone a scam, receive 10 thanks and now you are "IN". I sometimes don't know whether people understand the implications of what they write and how it stays on Google...forevevr.

The growth of futures.io (formerly BMT) came as a result of a number of factors: the willingness to help one another on technical matters, deep discussions of methods, money management discussions, comparing technologies, etc. For the sake of all traders, this is a mentality and culture that has to stay. It became a place of comfort where someone could say "Hey, I can ask anything" and get a good answer. A resource where the main man , BM just asking for people to be courteous while trying to help one another. I only wish to see this growth continuing, and not lose member over content that might not improve the quality of traders.

I identify with Mike in trying to improve the quality of the industry, but after doing this for a very long time, I can conclusively say that those who have common sense use it, and those who don't use their wallets.
If I say to someone don't look for brokers with lowest margins because it could ruin your trading account, some look at it at me shattering their dreams while others look at as a constructive element that could help over the life time of an account. It's all perspective.

When I started as a broker, the feeling I had was that there is 1 educator for every one hundred brokers, now there are 1000 educators on every broker and if you have a camera and you tube channel, then you are in the game. To try and fight it, is impossible.

Everything I say is in good spirit as I always had the ability to put myself emphatically in the shoes of others.

Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #52 (permalink)
Identify Evaluate Execute
Mercer Island WA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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Mike, I think your intentions are good but there are a few caveats:

1. Legal Implications

By providing a vendor with "certified trustworthy" status suggests you are endorsing them which could result in frivolous lawsuits you have to waste time and money defending. If a group of futures.io (formerly BMT) members spend $5k each for "certified trustworthy" vendor's course and the vendor steals the money first one in the legal firing line is futures.io (formerly BMT). In that instance the "certified trustworthy" title could become worthless overnight and the reputation of futures.io (formerly BMT) suffers as a result. Bear in mind the vendor will likely put the "certified trustworthy" stamp on his website which increases exposure.

If you want to go down this route then maybe soften it. I'd get rid of the word "trustworthy" as a minimum. You might want to also check your liability insurance to make sure this is covered. At the end of the day you will never know a vendor is "trustworthy" no matter how much due diligence is carried out. Look at Bernie Madoff.

2. Vendor types

As a minimum "system" vendors should be unable to participate in my opinion. The reality is most "system" vendors are failed traders using failed systems. Many merely repackage the system into something sexy and sell the failed system to others. If they were successful they wouldn't be trying to extract a measly $50 a month from customers and deal with all of the headaches.

So in essence futures.io (formerly BMT) members will be funneling their funds into losing systems from "certified trustworthy" vendors instead of a wider group of junk products. The result is the same. Money is wasted buying the system and then lost trading the system. The trader then realizes there is no get rich quick scheme in trading and starts putting in the work to become a successful trader.

So the "type" of vendor is important, more on education and less on "system".

3. Administration

Once there is word on the street you are offering this "certified trustworthy" status you could be inundated with many vendors applying. Who will do all the work? You already seem stretched. Taking security deposits, arbitration process etc etc. Sounds like a load of work for little reward.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the current system. You ask what people want, they vote then you find a vendor that you believe is credible and ask them to present. In fact, you have done an excellent job on the presenters so far.

Cheers
DJ

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  #53 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts.NET, S5, Ninj
Broker/Data: AMP, S5, IB
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mattz View Post
So the additional question I would have is this: Would the addition of such a vendor review section contribute to the overall quality of posts and the attraction of professional members that would share their trading knowledge?
The life of a forum and sustainability depends on the core quality of posts, and the attention of those who have traded for a long time.

What makes you think the idea of the program is to attract quality posts as opposed to provide a value added service? The indicators on here such as the GOMI stuff, may or may not attract quality posts but they sure save people a lot of money.

This place does not have to be one-tracked.


mattz View Post
Forum views come from mostly readers, and not from those who participate. If we infest this site with the same old, same old, this forum could lose those who could come and add valuable content. It is quite an effort and undertaking to write market analysis and those who do that want to do it on a quality site to see that their efforts are rewarded.

Why would this be a plan to 'infest the site with the same old, same old'? I thought the plan was the opposite, to allow vendors to stick their necks out if they wanted and be held accountable.


mattz View Post
I wish I could say that vendors reviews bring quality posts, but they never do. Sometimes I think that people put long posts together because it became popular to call someone a scam, receive 10 thanks and now you are "IN". I sometimes don't know whether people understand the implications of what they write and how it stays on Google...forevevr.

Really? So there hasn't been a single quality post on this forum by a vendor? I should hang up my hat right now!

To be honest, you should be looking at yourself as a vendor too. You sell services to traders after all.


mattz View Post
The growth of futures.io (formerly BMT) came as a result of a number of factors: the willingness to help one another on technical matters, deep discussions of methods, money management discussions, comparing technologies, etc. For the sake of all traders, this is a mentality and culture that has to stay. It became a place of comfort where someone could say "Hey, I can ask anything" and get a good answer. A resource where the main man , BM just asking for people to be courteous while trying to help one another. I only wish to see this growth continuing, and not lose member over content that might not improve the quality of traders.

Agreed - and none of that has to change in any way.

I thought this concept was fairly simple. Allow vendors to stick their necks on the blocks. If they get their heads cut off, more fool them.

It has to be a lot better than having T** B**** of *** being allowed to give weekly webinars to newbies whilst on the other hand taking 100 point losers (ES) on customers accounts he's managing. There's a couple of high profile places where they will let literally ANYONE talk to their customers. You know this Matt, you and I have discussed it on Skype.

I think having something reputable is a move in the right direction? Will it go smoothly? Maybe not but it's a step in the right direction.

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  #54 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
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BTW - I read that wrong....


mattz View Post
I wish I could say that vendors reviews bring quality posts, but they never do. Sometimes I think that people put long posts together because it became popular to call someone a scam, receive 10 thanks and now you are "IN". I sometimes don't know whether people understand the implications of what they write and how it stays on Google...forevevr.

I missed the word "reviews" in the above.

My apologies.

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  #55 (permalink)
legen...wait for it..dary
Singapore
 
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In my case, I have always used this forum as a filter when i am looking to buy any trading related products like whenever i got introduced to some products, the first thing i would do is to do a search on this forum, so from a consumer perspective, i think this program is going to be really helpful to "small guys" like me.

I don't think i got any helpful suggestion to add that is not already mentioned so i just want to show my gratitude and support for the program.

All the best.

Trading is not a game of perfect.
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  #56 (permalink)
Jedi Master
SF Bay Area
 
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BMT inviting teaching mentors


qqqqqiang View Post
In my case, I have always used this forum as a filter.

In that world, the only credible filter is "are futures.io (formerly BMT) mentors profitable?" If that can't be answered with transparency, then its no different than any other trading forum.. The only vendors that would be concerned are those that can't provide the transparency, and that's the bottom line really..

MC Hammer - They Put Me In The Mix - YouTube

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  #57 (permalink)
legen...wait for it..dary
Singapore
 
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Jedi View Post
In that world, the only credible filter is "are futures.io (formerly BMT) mentors profitable?" If that can't be answered with transparency, then its no different than any other trading forum.. The only vendors that would be concerned are those that can't provide the transparency, and that's the bottom line really..

MC Hammer - They Put Me In The Mix - YouTube

I do not mean it that way which in my opinion is a very narrow perspective to view any products as profitable for others might not be profitable for you. Rather i just want to listen to or rather read about other people's opinion about a particular product, both the good, like how it helped them or how it fit with their methodology(this is seldom talked about which is a shame.) and the bad, like there are better alternatives or maybe its crap.

And of course this is not the only place where i will do my research but it is the forum where i will place more weight on and trust more than the others.

With all the information about the good and the bad, i will have enough information to make a judgement call whether or not the product offered is genuine, helpful and compliment my methodology.

Thats all, i care very little if other that use it are profitable or not(if they are, all the better) but rather how helpful the particular product will be to me.

Hope this clear up what i meant.

Trading is not a game of perfect.
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  #58 (permalink)
Jedi Master
SF Bay Area
 
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qqqqqiang View Post
I do not mean it that way which in my opinion is a very narrow perspective to view any products as profitable for others might not be profitable for you.

That's how every unprofitable teaching vendor and their sponsors will answer, as they deposit your check..


qqqqqiang View Post
Rather i just want to listen to or rather read about other people's opinion about a particular product, both the good, like how it helped them or how it fit with their methodology(this is seldom talked about which is a shame.) and the bad, like there are better alternatives or maybe its crap.

For products I agree.. for teaching mentors, you can get that type of input from every other trading forum often thru disputes between both traders that will not be profitable with any method and the vendors that can't get their own methods to make money.. lol After all, the goal is to make money right? there's no need for futures.io (formerly BMT) to add value there..

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  #59 (permalink)
legen...wait for it..dary
Singapore
 
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Jedi View Post
That's how every unprofitable teaching vendor and their sponsors will answer, as they deposit your check..

So do profitable teaching vendor but profitable or not, it doesn't make the sentence false.


Jedi View Post
For products I agree.. for teaching mentors, you can get that type of input from every other trading forum often thru disputes between both traders that will not be profitable with any method and the vendors that can't get their own methods to make money.. lol After all, the goal is to make money right? there's no need for futures.io (formerly BMT) to add value there..

Even for teaching mentors, i went through the same process. I have researched for a few months before i decide to commit my money. I read posts that are bad, saying that they are trying to cheat money or that they are unprofitable therefore turning their business to teaching instead and the good where the traders that learned from them are featured in magazines or posts that state that they really benefited from their mentoring. All kinds of posts that you can imagine.

I kind of think that this is similar to trading where you can gather all the information(VIX, TICK, TRIN, Market profile, Volume Profile, Indicators, DOM, etc) that you want but you will never have enough so you need to make a good decision based on the incomplete information that you have. So i guess in trading term, you insisting on only using the profitable/unprofitable as an indication is just like trading solely based on the RSI overbought/oversold signals.

So I got my incomplete information and i made my decision. I do not regret as my mentor is not helping me to be profitable, he is helping me to improve my skill as a trader whether i will be profitable or not, it is entirely up to me. I also do not know if my mentor is profitable or not nor do i care. What i am concerned with is that now i know what to work on to improve as a trader.

In terms of how futures.io (formerly BMT) adds value which is my assumption for which i may be wrong, I believe is that the program is not about making every single forum members profitable but rather to provide better information about vendors for the members(or public) to help them make better decisions and also maybe to save them some time of researching(if any).

I agree that there are dishonest vendors out there that are out to cheat you of your money so won't this program help to weed out most of the dishonest vendors which it seems like it is what you are concerned about.

I can't speak for everyone but in my case, I believe that it will definitely add value for me should i want to purchase any trading related products in the future.

Trading is not a game of perfect.
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  #60 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Valletta Malta
 
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The honorary guild of snake oil salesmen are going to be creaming their pants in anticipation !

Whilst its refreshing to see the industry wide problem of vendors being discussed in a sensible and thoughtful fashion, If you implement it, I swear to god I'll have to become a vendor simply to abuse it, its a business opportunity that would be too good to resist. I won't be the only one either !

I know its technologically easy to achieve, and there's a demand, but the implications if and when it backfires (and it will) won't be pretty.

Inviting vendors onto a trading forum is like inviting vermin into your home, there's enough examples out there that shows the result of vendor infestation, do you really want to end up with the same problems ?

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