Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Trading: Futures & Crypto
Posts: 50,018 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,479 given,
98,326
received
All,
I am contemplating a major / drastic change to the behavior of all downloads on the site. The change would be to make all downloads Elite Only. I mean all downloads, in posts, threads, downloads section, everywhere globally. The only exclusion would be images (screen shots), but all other file types would be available only to Elite Members.
I have mixed feelings on this, so wanted to get some feedback from the users to consider as well before making any decisions. The main reason for the desire to change is to protect the work and to protect the value of the community.
Right now, too many "bots" are downloading our indicators and posting them on other sites as their own. Right now, too many real people register "fake" accounts because they can't even be bothered to spend 30 seconds to type in correct info when they register, all because all they want is to download something and likely never participate further in the site.
I previously tried enforcing a 10 post minimum for downloads, but all that did was have people create 10 junk posts. So that isn't going to work.
It seems the best way to protect the collection of downloads the users have worked very hard on, is to restrict access to only those who are serious about trading.
It certainly doesn't have to be Elite only, but the only other realistic option to implement is the minimum post requirement. If I change it to say 50 (instead of what we tried before, 10) then maybe it would prevent people from creating 50 spam posts just to download something, but still allow people who are serious about trading - but for whatever reason aren't Elite members - to still download. But the problem is, 50 posts is far, far more than what most people have (unfortunately), so such a requirement is likely to just piss off a lot of people.
The desire to change is not about increasing Elite sign ups. In fact, lately I have been wondering if futures.io (formerly BMT) is getting "too big" as we've started to attract some of the trolls from other sites and sometimes some of the posts are getting unfriendly lately. I am fighting this very hard as I am sure you are as well. We all want futures.io (formerly BMT) to remain a unique place, a place where everyone is truly here to help, and not start arguments, call each other names, or other troll like behavior. So this might mean making futures.io (formerly BMT) a more exclusive place where only serious traders are welcome.
Now obviously, just because someone pays for Elite membership does not automatically mean they are a serious trader. But they are probably far less likely to be a trouble maker while paying for the privilege to be here.
So a move of making all downloads Elite only might stunt our growth in terms of new user sign ups to the site, but that is fine with me if it means that what growth we have is of a higher quality and caliber user. I don't want to make the requirement solely based on post count, because there are far, far too many people who do not post much but are still working very hard to improve their trading. These people have signed up for Elite status to help support the site, and I think that entitles them to receive the downloads without a minimum post requirement.
Anyway, so there it is. Some of my many thoughts on the matter. Please share yours. I'm hoping to get a good mix of replies from both Elite Members and non-Elite Members.
I'd like to thank everyone very much for the replies so far.
I want to make a few things very clear:
1) I am not entertaining any "pay per download" approach.
2) There will not be any extra charge for certain "extra" use of the site or extra functionality, etc, for Elite Members, this was never up for discussion. Elite Membership means you have all the site offers.
3) I am not entertaining any increase for Elite Membership fees at this time, and even if at a later date the fees were to change, all existing Elite Members would be grandfathered in naturally.
4) Verifying peoples identity via phone call is impractical and is not being considered. Over 30 new people sign up daily. A percentage of these people won't even list a nearby City, State or Country they live in, or they won't even list a valid email address. Asking for a phone number will probably give a large percentage of people heart attacks, and if not, I would certainly have one myself trying to call everyone and explain why I am calling. This is not an option.
That said, here are a few more thoughts:
a) Implementing Captcha's doesn't work, Captcha's don't prevent spam - they only annoy users.
b) Asking users to put their work in certain sections of the forum has more or less not been successful. As someone said, "people will be people", and that by in large means they aren't going to follow rules - they will just do whatever is easiest. What this means is by default, the most file sharing occurs in the open forum because it is simply easier. Even though the overwhelming majority of the contributors are Elite Members.
c) So far, regarding the non-Elite Members who have replied to this thread in opposition for changing the site to an Elite Only download configuration --- these members have very rarely posted or contributed anything to the forum. I understand that some people do expect everything to be free or given to them, especially on the internet, and object to anything other than that approach. But the overwhelming majority of these people have shared very little to nothing with the community, they only take. I'm just looking at the numbers. Obviously there are exceptions. When looking to make a decision for the greater good of the entire community, I am mainly interested in doing what is best for those who are active givers or sharers in the community.
d) Copyrighting code, implementing GNU licensing, obfuscating indicators, etc -- these things sound good until you try to understand what is actually involved. First, the people stealing the code could care less about copyrights or licensing. Second, obfuscating code is dangerous and goes against the nature of open sharing (even open sharing within the Elite Only community) because you can't see the code, you can't easily manipulate it or expand upon it, etc. Third, implementing a licensing system like a Vendor where everyone has to be licensed to run an indicator is impractical.
e) No change will stop or correct all the problems. But I'd like to at least curtail it. The general consensus is, when people "pay to play" as someone said, they are more likely to be civil and appreciative towards one another, which fosters a better community atmosphere. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe we've demonstrated this is the overall case.
OK, that said, I am still thinking everything over and reading each post. I've not reached any decisions except with regards to the above.
I would like to hear more from non-Elite Members. I realize I can't please everyone, but since the change is going to affect you the most, I'd like to hear more from you. In particular if you are active on the forums (lots of posts, lots of sharing, have received lots of thanks -- but have chosen to not become an Elite Member) I'd like to hear from you.
----- EDIT: ADDED TUE 9/6/11 1:11PM EST -------
Moderator Notice
I want to once again thank everyone for their feedback.
Based on the feedback I have received, I have made a change to the Downloads section of the site just now. You must now be an Elite Member to access any of the Downloads within the downloads section.
We will see how it goes, and the next step will be to make a similar change in threads so that only Elite Members can download attachments from within posts or threads. After a trial period, I will look to re-organize the Downloads section to eliminate the "The Elite Circle" section within the downloads area, dispersing it instead into the platform categories that exist.
I am unsure how long the trial period will last. I will play it by ear.
1) This will not effect our Google indexing. The pages are publicly visible on the Download section, just not publicly accessible. The exception is the category "The Elite Circle" which is hidden. As mentioned above, after the trial period I will look to disperse this section since the entire Downloads area will be Elite only.
2) To those who suggested a point-based system or a limitation on the number or frequency of downloads, I am sorry to say it won't work. This is because people will just attempt to create duplicate accounts to get around the block.
3) To those who say I should just increase the number of ads on the site if I want more money. To that I say "no thanks", I don't want more ads on the site, and the changes proposed had nothing to do with generating revenue. I already turn away about 80% or more of requests to advertise on the site. This is because of something I like to call integrity, and not allowing "get rich quick" type ads on the site or companies with poor reputation. Also, the desire to improve the site is not fueled by money. I want futures.io (formerly BMT) to stay pure and on point as it is today, full of helpful traders, and not become overrun with trolls like other trading sites. I believe this change to restrict access is a good one in this regard.
---- ADDED WED 9/7/11 11:15AM EST ----
Moderator Notice
Hi guys,
Once again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback. I'll be closing this thread now as I work to implement the changes previously discussed.
I do want to specifically bring up one last point, regarding those who believe this change won't effect the stealing of our stuff. I strongly disagree. With a 20 year background in IT, and as site admin, I clearly see a "path" or a "connection" between the bots or low-paid foreign labor on the site that have a specific purpose of downloading content and specifically indicators to simply place on their own websites, or blogs, in order to drive keyword traffic to make money on advertising.
By making these items unavailable to the general public, it will, in my eyes, eliminate the majority of the problem.
Yes, there are still those who are in the trading business who will purposely become an Elite Member with the intention of stealing our code, and that is unfortunate and disturbing. But, I believe those cases are relatively rare compared with the near non-stop daily amount of stuff being stolen and duplicated otherwise when everything is freely accessible.
So all I can do is act in the best interests of the majority of the forum in the best way I know how. It is impossible to please everyone, but the majority of people in this case are happy with the decision and support it. As for the minority that are not, I am sorry, but it is impossible to please everyone.
A great move.Passionate traders in futures.io (formerly BMT) go out of their way to help each other and to only see their great work is taken away...can i say stolen from futures.io (formerly BMT), packaged up and sold as their indicator.
Lets make it to Elite only members.
However, how would this stop them from becoming Elite members and abusing the privilege of being a member of futures.io (formerly BMT).
thoughts
sharmas
The following 10 users say Thank You to sharmas for this post:
Maybe allow one to download after they themselves contribute an indicator or something of substance evaluated by the mods ? Something equal to or greater than the relative value of what they would be entitled to at least in the download section . All content here is valuable in my opinion but unfortunately theres individuals and entities that seek to profit from the hard work of others without contributing themselves .
Mike, I think you would be justified in implementing this. Although I haven't been the largest poster by any means, mainly because at times I feel I don't have much to contribute, but in the 2 years I have been associated with futures.io (formerly BMT) I have thoroughly enjoyed the type of community you have here and with all the various trading forums out there, this is by far the best I know of. So, I think your idea of making downloads an Elite requirement will more than likely alleviate some of the problems that you have addressed. Just my 2 cents.
Jeff
The following 9 users say Thank You to jdella for this post:
IMHO, I say open the threads to all; in the spirit of learning. You need an Elite membership to download indicators. If you want to play, you have to pay.
The following 17 users say Thank You to Tiberius for this post:
the download function doesn't work until someone clicks the "thanks" button first. The lack of manners on futures.io (formerly BMT) is .................... well, gee wiz your momma................
The following 19 users say Thank You to Tiberius for this post:
I feel strongly that if we make downloads harder to get only quality people who go forward with down loads. By harder to get I think futures.io (formerly BMT) should make them pay for tools.
Now amount is not as important but should be large enough for one to think more then once before just coming and taking tools from futures.io (formerly BMT). I know some would disagree with me. On the other hand when money are in stake people would pay attention.
Thank you
Gregory_TickVix
The following 4 users say Thank You to tickvix for this post:
Why did it take this long??? I'm by no means the biggest poster on futures.io (formerly BMT), but I've been wondering about this very subject since I joined in 2009. Implement it Big Mike, that's my vote.
Rick
The following 14 users say Thank You to trs3042 for this post:
Yes downloads should be elite only. I like that idea. It really bothers me when I see my stuff show up on other websites and people have to pay for them and the gall of it...they don't even change the name or description. I don't even have a commercial website selling my stuff and they theoretically make money off my work.
I know making downloads doesn't protect us 100% but it would sure make it harder for the unscrupulous.
The following 6 users say Thank You to MWinfrey for this post:
That which troubles you troubles me as well...along with other concerns about who is posting what in a public forum. Much is credible but there is a lot of low or no cred stuff catching support from time to time.
My personal view is that I would like to protect my "secrets" so that my methods and indicators stay effective. That is delusional for two primary reasons. First it is naive to think that Im the first, only, smartest or most disciplined trader to ever think of that. Second, if a posted method gets ten downloads it will be implemented ten different ways...each including the downloaders own bias (which is usually wrong). So in general there is little harm in posting most of a strategy or an indicator with general rather than specific settings.
The other side is that almost everyone that comes here comes seeking. Often there is no protocol for sharing, seekers take and very few post real content. That is a parasitic relationship and it sucks, agreed.
Would it be possible to allow the original contributor to control who can and cant download their work? Someone could allow "open" download while someone else might want only colaborative partners to download their work?
I do agree that all members should have to "join" with their wallet past a very basic view of the front page. It does seem like most do go for elite status. Requiring that may eliminate data miners and trolls.
The following 2 users say Thank You to wldman for this post:
I am not an Elite member, have made 0 posts, have been a "lurker" since I've joined, have downloaded a couple of indicators and some market replay data. But I thoroughly enjoy the site - the knowledge, the camaraderie, the willingness to help struggling traders like myself, the overall environment. Do what you have to to keep it that way.
Personally, I like the idea of Elite-only for downloads since I have more questions than ideas/solutions at this point. Seems to be the most fair and reasonable.
Thx
The following 3 users say Thank You to Morpheus for this post:
Should be fairly simple, you simply have to figure out the payback...
- Will giving downloads for free attract more members and therefore more advertisers?
Or
- Will this not impact your advertising revenue and therefore increase your revenue through subscriptions?
It's never easy to tell, so just try one option. If it adversly impacts your revenue, then change back.
IMHO, it may be a good idea to contact the top indi contributors directly and take a quick survey about what they think.
Case in point, I've noticed that Fat Tails opts to post his indis in the non-elite section. I'd hate to think of a situation where Fat Tails and other quality contributors like him are no longer compelled to share their work.
The following user says Thank You to Haverchuck for this post:
It is simply not possible to please all the people, all the time.
This site has cost and it has revenue.
Some people will see the revenue part as Mike being an evil vendor.
Personally, I think Mike should make a few $$$ from the site. On the other hand, a lot of people think he should give his time for free. There are people that will get very upset if he doesn't. The contributors you mention could be in either group.
It's a tough call. In the grand scheme of things though - it's small potatoes. If Mike can't decide, he should flip his lucky quarter.
Look, the guy is entitled to allow the market for his site to determine what or if he requires financially in return for what he puts in. 50$ for a "lifetime" elite access is the same as free guys. Anyone that won't or can't pay that should not have capital at risk in the markets.
The following 2 users say Thank You to wldman for this post:
This is a market...really the last true bastion of Capitalism in the World. Do you really think that a "system" or indie seller if they where even 60% legit, could make more money selling their "method" than they could trading it? That is pure angry male bovine dung!
A "trader trainer" OMG I'd like to arm bar that guys arm right off then either choke him with it or beat him over the head.
Those guys are ALL chartatans (sic) they wage war against the weak in an attempt to use their dreams to leverage the last few dollars out of the unknowing.
It is for sale because the author can't trade it? Or the author can't trade it more effectively that what he can steal by selling it to the unknowing. Trader trainer...my buttocks!
Again, this makes me want to share or journal everything I can. Trader trainer! Im so out of balance now I think the only way to recover is to go fishing.
I have mentioned this before that if a trader (or wannabe trader) does not see value in this great site, then there is nothing more to be said about that. A few thoughts that come to mind:-
1) Let's have the threads open for reading but downloads restricted to Elite - this will allow "general viewership" of the site (and evaluation of interest) and therefore gets the advertisers happy, but at the same time ensures a better profile of members who are in the real meat-and-potatoes of things.
2) Let's poll the current non Elite members and see how many of them are willing to pay the miniscule amount to become Elite (and enjoy not only fabulous downloads, ideas, etc. but also the humour from folks like 'ThatManFromTexas). This poll will quickly give us an overview on what the interest level is.
3) BM has put in an enormous amount of work in getting the site started; a lot of folks (and it's a long list) have developed and shared indicators, trading ideas, etc. It truly riles me no end to see these become the latest product to be sold by the snake-oil salesmen. As a community we need to protect ourselves, and if that means $50 then it is a negligible amount in the bigger picture of things.
In short, Go For It!!
The following 2 users say Thank You to Bengaltiger for this post:
haven't read all the posts in this thread but as far as I'm concerned if you start
restricting downloads more than you already do aka the 'elite' section you can
forget about me remaining a member
if you want money get some advertisers
you're sounding like one of those Chinese sites that requires either money or
contributions before a member can go up a level in order to download something
if you've ever contributed something for the greater good and then see it sold by someone when they have NO right to do so, then you can understand where this is coming from. i don't see mike as wanting or needing more money at all. i think he is wanting to protect what is our's and i commend him for that effort.
The following 6 users say Thank You to MWinfrey for this post:
I think those valuable things are in elite sections allready, like GOM and Fatails. webinars and methods.
I think salt is all information in this site.
I can understand Mike you.
But I think it won't help. People pay 50$ for that, if they want distribute BM forum indicators, and try to make bussiness.
I have seen web page which is charging 500$ for BigMike indicator set.
What if U give indicators for free ? and keep the Forums and the webinars all elite only .. ? Indicators on there own aint gonna change anything .. and frankly for me the $$$$ is not in the indicators . But in the ideas that we all share .. y not make the whole forums and the webinars Elite only .. Indicators created by the members .. without the input or without the idea of the member created would not help ..... i think that will create a major change .. ? Just my one cent .. please this was not meant to disrespect any one's work just something to think about .. Happy trading all.
Best Regards
Jinhar
The following user says Thank You to jinhar for this post:
IMO have two different account types. One for elite and one for downloads only. The downloads only group should be much cheaper than the elite. Maybe someone might start out as a download only and pay $10 or whatever and then later on decide to go elite, making a total of $60.
In terms of expense. An Elite Membership for a lifetime is only equal to some webservice one month's subscription fee. There is another site about thinkorswim scripts charge $75 lifetime and I still think worth it(no names, as futures.io (formerly BMT) policy). And this forum is worth miles more than the one I mentioned.
In terms of value. I have been studying many weeks from the futures.io (formerly BMT) forum. The time I put in really reflects the value the forum has. I am really enjoying spend the time in reading thread, and watch webinars. This is gradually become my No. 1 trading education resource, at least for now.
If people are serious about trading, spend sometime in the careful reading and thinking, then some moderate expense in education is a must. A Elite membership is a good way for filtering the noise from the web.
I often read in the threads, that some indicators are "elite only" and people have to go through the hassle to remind this to each other or relocate the file locations. That could be a time wasting procedures for all of the elite members. As elite member, we all want to have a smooth navigating experience. Overall, we want this to be a nice trading home/lounge, (I believe this is also one of your original purpose to set up futures.io (formerly BMT)), then setting up this elite filter is good way to protect elite members "home feelings".
your proposed change, i think is not going to help in the context of above desires.
As u pointed out "Protection" is prime concern. Lets assume...i am a XYZ vendor and i steal hard work
from here and sell in multiple times....can any increase in elite minimum donation or shifting download
in elite only, stop me...?....simply no...i will pay higher and will continue silently....cant be protected. And in
fact doing so will simply magnify effect of point (1) and (2)....it sounds like.." Ok , i hv paid, nor disturbing any one...niether posting any thing...just downloading...thats what for i paid..."...how can this way stealing stop
and participation increase....?
It will simple change the meaning of "elite" tag from "elite" to "buyer"....nothing more.
Might need different solution...IMHO.
Harvest The Moon Nest The Market
The following 2 users say Thank You to devdas for this post:
I thought this was a good idea about two years ago.......at which time I moved all of my donated indicators AND new threads that I started to the elite section.
The following 2 users say Thank You to Jeff Castille for this post:
Appreciate your work and feel mad that people abuse it. Is there anyway to put in a tag in the script, that only futures.io (formerly BMT) user could use? I am not a programmer, but guess this is doable. Also could use it to trace any abuse.
The following user says Thank You to ilikeread for this post:
As a new member who is still deciding what to do, my thoughts might be useful.
I have downloaded Big Mike's futures.io (formerly BMT)_Trading_Journal and some .pdf's. Much thanks!
I have no interest in downloading indicators.
Perhaps very important: I have been watching the active threads and have not seen ANY interesting elite trading threads go by. Does not seem to be much going on in there. Of course, that may also be because I am a price action FX trader who probably does not belong here.
I do not want my handle highlighted in red or yellow or any other special color. I will get a new handle if mine turns red.
I like the idea of not having my posts on Google.
$50 and the means to send it is not a problem for those of us in the developed world, but it may be a problem for many outside.
as far as indicators created by futures.io (formerly BMT) members, sure good idea.
but what about those indicators "stolen" from somewhere else? I'm "guilty" of that. a friend found a good indicator, he gave it to me and I posted it here. stuff like that. and that person (who created the indicator) could say the same thing: I made that indicator and now futures.io (formerly BMT) is selling it (through elite membership).
anyway I believe the opinion of people like @dorschden, @Fat Tails and @gomi etc would really help.
The following 2 users say Thank You to Silvester17 for this post:
I think it is a good idea. But like other members already mentioned, it will not stop people from posting or selling futures.io (formerly BMT) indicators somewhere else.
In any case no indicator will make you money trading. It's all between our ears, and that cannot be posted anywhere, lol.
The following user says Thank You to meyer99 for this post:
of posts in this thread and others today that lead me to think that private colaboration within small groups might be the best way to share things that are sensitive. I will say that some of the tools in my bag are there because other guys posted them. In many cases they had to be decloaked, but if they where "good" that was a snap.
Now some of those elements are "coded in" to larger indicators and strategies. Im not sure how I feel about those being blasted out to the world and Im not sure how guys who I've worked with in the past would like it either.
I will say that if I posted general stuff that everyone already has access to that was simply organized a certain way that I'd have no problem who did what with it. The other side is if I had something I created that was significant, unique, and useful, I'd tend to keep that more private. If someone took that and packaged it for sale there is a chance that they would regret their own birth.
I personally do not mind, if the downloads are elite or non-elite. I think they will find their way to dubious websites anyhow. If I post something, I assume that it is available for everybody sooner or later. My return on investment are comments, which in turn allow me to improve my trading tools and learn about other trading concepts. The return on investment has been excellent, and it is not really dependent on elite or non-elite status of downloads.
I think that the problem lies elsewhere. The forum ows its existence to the entrepreneurship of @Big Mike. It is not easy to animate and maintain such a forum, and I think there are two main concerns
-> covering the cost of running the forum through member's contributions or advertising revenues
-> maintain the quality of the forum
I believe that the second point is crucial As the forum has quickly grown, navigating the contents is more difficult than it has been before. There are more and more threads, which simply repeat discussions that have already taken place elsewhere. Not easy to steer the forum through that development.
The question whether the downloads should be elite or not, is more a financial one. Some of the contents needs to be elite, otherwise nobody would pay for the membership. I would not have done it either, if all content had been freely available.
The following 6 users say Thank You to Fat Tails for this post:
that first paragraph is really good insight. Open colaboration. Frustrating sometimes though, at least for me. Does Mike have a revenue problem relative to the work he puts in? Maybe a free section, a basic membership (now elite) and then something more above that? If I could get the coding help I need I would absoultly do that. Have a great weekend fat tails.
BigMike, looking beyond your download question (yes, of course), I wish you/the site had some way to pursue those who pirate members work for resale. And if that meant a general member fee or a higher Elite fee to maintain a legal slush fund for such times, I'd be all for it. What is offered here is worth far more than what is charged. You've created something remarkable and unique... most any means to maintain it the way you want is justified to my mind.
My only further thought would be to give a free pass though to those who are such remarkable contributors, like Fattails, Perry, Jeff, Mike W, Wizard, Cory, etc.
The following user says Thank You to casey44 for this post:
I will jump on the bandwagon with you all too I guess. I don't post much as I am learning more about price action (and spending a lot of time with cjbooth in his trading style ).When I started out in the forums this year, I too was an indicator addict (always thought the indicators had the answer). I bought packages and always thought I'd found the answer (naive mistake that was) and downloaded a heap of them from this site as well. There were then a number of indicators I saw appealing to me in the elite section, and decided $50 was worth the money. In hindsight, funnily enough, it turns out indicators have nothing to do with me be successful or not. The webinars and the information shared among forum members on various ways of trading, and tweaks for improving profitable methods (not systems) was where the real gold was. Sure, indicators can help confirm entry and exit points in the martket, but they don't make the money on their own (thanks to cjbooth for this insight). If it wasn't for the help and insight of the information (threads and webinars) here, I would still be downloading indicators looking for that "ah ha" moment. As the saying goes, "the devil is in the detail". My interpretation of that phrase in this instance is the money making "ah ha" moments that make us profitable traders won't be in the indicators as such, but int the written and spoken words we share among one and other. My two cents worth would be to keep the website as is as far as downloads are concerned (though, without description), and privatise the threads and webinars themselves, as this is where the real worth is. You can throw all the "best" indicators in the world at me (without description on its use) and it won't do a darn thing to improve my trading. But, you pull me aside privately, and collaborate on how best to use it in relation to the market, and I might get somewhere. The best instruction I have received thus far (and very grateful for it) is from cjbooth (in regard to NOT relying on indicators). Sorry to ramble, but I thought you'd like a point of view from a former indicator addict. I still keep a lot of indicators on my computer in case I find another USEFUL way of interpreting the market with them. Whatever you decide, Mike, I'll be around for a long time to come. Traders HELPING traders is what it's all about. Do with the indicators as wish.
When the government fears the people, you have Liberty. When the
people fear the government you have Tyranny."
- Thomas Jefferson
The following user says Thank You to taylor for this post:
i also agree and glad that fatty posted above.. the whole taking indies to other sites will not stop with a complete membership. what got me to join the elite club was the webinars(could be because the indies i wanted were already free, thanks fatty!). this is one of the things i think you should do allot more of.. more webinars.. the ones with vendors, brokers, softwares are nice. you get to see what they off and they give away deals for their services, you do a good job with them. the ones you do with real hard information from people from the forums(fatty, perry, etc..) are the ones you should try to do more of.. those are a major attraction in my mind.
if the the devs mostly like the idea i say go for it. like i said, it wont stop the spread of the indies around to other sites but it will bring a higher class clientele which benefits us all.
dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see
As others have said, I don't think an Elite membership requirement is going to stop indicators from appearing on other sites. Once an indicator or (more importantly, I'd say) an idea is posted, it's out there in the world, and will take on a life of its own if it has any validity. (There's also the gray area of indicators that have subsequently been tweaked and then put up for sale - at what point does that become acceptable?) In any case, we know that the real value of this site doesn't lie in the indicators, but in the forums themselves.
I'm more concerned about the other issue Mike mentions, the size of the site and the kind of posters it now attracts. Requiring Elite membership might help that, and if so, I would be all for it. Another possibility might be to put a cap on the membership number - and perhaps requiring a minimum number of posts within a set period in order to continue the membership.
minimum number of set posts may no go down so well, as people like me spend more time trading (and learning how to trade for that matter) than posting on the forum. But the idea of capping the membership numbers because of it's size...now that's not a bad idea at all.
When the government fears the people, you have Liberty. When the
people fear the government you have Tyranny."
- Thomas Jefferson
having never run a site like this, i was somewhat surprised at the bot issue (only somewhat). been a member since over the summer and while i havent been compelled to post or contribute as yet, my impression of the site is one of significant value. i have attended several webinars both live and archived. read thru some of the posts but havent had the need to download anything. i tend to do my own thing, trolling more for ideas and perspectives than anything else. in my view when something requiring an elite membership comes along that i just cant live without then the $20 or $50 contributions are a no brainer. if the bots and posers are this much of an problem then elite membership is a very small price of admission. real trading noobies will soon find where value lies thru their own price discovery.
The following 2 users say Thank You to wray for this post:
For what it's worth.....I did not mind at all paying a fee for access to this site....
(I did spend a bit of time initially prowling around the forum before deciding to join).
I am not an active "poster"...(I post occasionally and read a lot).....but I do code indicators for folks and make modifications for futures.io (formerly BMT) members. Requiring Elite membership for downloads does not seem to be an overly burdensome requirement.
Sort of like having locks on your doors, it will stop all but the most determined folks from trolling through and getting stuff.
As for the general "tone" of the communications, one of the things I liked most about futures.io (formerly BMT)...(after the content of course)...was the fact that 'flame wars' and the general nihilistic "nothing-about-trading-works" aura of other sites, was not in evidence on futures.io (formerly BMT). Several trading sites are so negative that after the first 30 minutes, I start to wonder if anything on that site is useful.
Allowing limited free access to some forums and information is probably useful,
but paid memberships for access to indicators, access to recorded webinars, and access to the more details forums, seems appropriate.
This may not be a popular statement, but based on the quality and volume of the content of futures.io (formerly BMT),
I'm sort of thinking that a modest yearly membership fee might be in order....
(don't yell at me...it was only a thought )
Along with others, I doubt that requiring a small fee to join the Elite group is likely to deter someone intent on taking another's work to try to profit from it by selling it. Although I haven't posted many indicators that I have written, if I thought someone would be interested in them, I would share gladly. This has been my practice over the years, whether for Ensign, Worden Bros., or NinjaTrader. I really don't care and Intellectual Property laws are nebulous at best. Plus, what would be the gain in suing someone. We might as well accept that there are scoundrels in this world and just avoid them. Frankly, I think most indicators are not particularly helpful and that people have to find their own method and approach that fits with their personality and trading style. I like those that have some statistical basis (BB's) or common, fairly consistent, market "reaction" as the 20sma appears to; also those which show a historical perspective to previous price levels such as CCI and Stochastics. That's why I don't bother to upload my indicators. They are simply variations on those and unlikely to really provide much to anyone else.
Further, I don't think that providing payment ensures quality of members although it might reduce the number of casual and temporary participants.
Re: having an Elite group... first of all I really dislike the term "Elite", but that aside, I do find the Elite members more consistently thoughtful and serious. What about having an application for membership process wherein someone must be voted in or out by the membership? That approach would bring about a number of thorny issues... like how many members must respond and by when; who makes the final decision (Mike? moderators?).
Re: the download restrictions; there are times when an indicator or strategy is a work-in-progress and perhaps not ready for prime time. How would indicators in this status be shared if not attached to a post until complete? Could there be a special category in the download form to designate it such so that a user knows and can limit a search or list to just those deemed complete?
Re: code "snippets" - I would love to see a place for code snippets in the download section where ideas and techniques could be shared such as Monpere's use of the windows clipboard to communicate between an indicator and a strategy (
Instead of having the $50 go to the forum, why not a nominal fee of $5 per download which is credited to the writers paypal account. That way there is an insensitive to create and disinsensitive for bots without paypal accounts.
what about all the members who paid for a lifetime membership who thought they paid for unlimted use and downloads and now u want to start charging more for use..? this idea sounds like the way cell phone companies operate now a days.. ie is ur unlimited cell service really unlimited?(aka throttling)...
dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see
Ŋ\_(ツ)_/Ŋ
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
The following user says Thank You to madLyfe for this post:
Mike will choose to start charging per download or per view. I might be missing it, but the main question seemed to be getting some of the information behind some type of protection. I thought maybe secondary was the point about cba for Mike personally as Im sure it is a major effort to maintain the page.
Individuals who are going to "mine" resource will do that to a cost level that almost meets their revenue from the mined info. Seeing some packages listing for $700, indicates that the break even analysis might put equivalent membership dues out of reach for many legit viewers and contributors.
Some combo of every member is a paid member and the understanding that totally open sharing for some items may have to give way to "private" sharing of some type.
I don't have an opinion about whether to make all downloads Elite only, but perhaps a better way to screen new members than by number of posts would be screening them by number of thanks instead. Then they'd have to at least make helpful posts not spammy ones.
I have always liked the 'thanks' feature of this forum and thought that it helps encourage helpful posts.
The following 3 users say Thank You to GoldStandard for this post:
Ya Big Mike, it's time to SEAL the Borders from the Lilly Liberal Socialist Commie types. These Parasite types just want to infiltrate this Great Forum and TAKE something for NOTHING!!!
Remember, this is LABOR DAY weekend, Trader's here in futures.io (formerly BMT) work Very Very Hard on their systems...and their labor should NOT be in vain!!!
:bmt-rocks:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
I like Cory's idea of the user having to type in a random system generated code in a security box prior to download completing. Either that or limit down loads to paid elite members only.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci
Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
The following user says Thank You to PandaWarrior for this post:
Mike,
I think making all downloads "elite" only is a very good idea. Especially given how reaonable ($50 lifetime) the cost is. You"ve structured the price in a way that makes it both affordable and also requires someone to at least put forward some good faith on their part. I also think that it is a good structure that you have with the seperation of "public" and "elite" forums. I have recently joined the board and it did not take me long to realize the value of both content and community that exists here.
Thanks,
Sean
The following user says Thank You to trade65 for this post:
Changing downloading to Elite wont help you solve the problem.. The ones that are downloading & reselling the Indicators will pay the $50 to continue what they were doing best... Mike I seriously think You are promoting Different Platforms (Ninja,Tradestation,SC etc.. ) the owners should be paying you for supporting their platforms by creating Indicators on your website for traders to download... whereas stopping Illegal downloading & distrubiting of futures.io (formerly BMT) Indicators, why dont all the programmers that code the Indicators add some extra code to the Indicator that allows the indicator to run only on one computer at a time after its downloaded & cant be shared.... Im pretty sure it can be done.. I dont doubt the programmers that are here supporting futures.io (formerly BMT) are less talented then the rest out there...
But another question comes to my mind, why would someone wanna pay extra money to others when they can get it here for $50 if you know what i mean...... Mike I Think your server expenses should be paid by all your sponsors & you should completely free your website for everyone... I think these big fishes(Platforms) should be paying for all your expenses & hard work for promoting their stuff.....
I think futures.io (formerly BMT) should completely be FREE for everyone.... this way people wont be going elsewhere to buy indicators that were here once shared by other members....
Mike I think you put in endless hours to maintain this website & you should be respected for doing all that by being paid, cause time is money.... & we all know the importance of it.....
a lot will disagree with my opinions.. but in the begining of your post you asked everyones input, so I decided to speak my mind...
In the End whatever you do... remember futures.io (formerly BMT) is your baby & everyone will respect your decision..
I feel the indicators and strategies which have been coded by the programmers here should be put in elite section, those indicators which are shared on other forums like Ninjatrader suppoort forum should be kept in the common section.
If the programmers dont want their work to be stolen and sold on other sites, they should secure the code by some means...clisecure/obfuscating the code/DLL etc.
If the programmers want their work to be sold, obviously there is a provision to post your own website address below the username and a separate vendor section.
Platform: Sierra Charts, Investor RT, Ninja Trader
Broker: VanKar
Trading: NQ
Posts: 527 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 583 given,
1,245
received
Mike
I think making downloads an elite only function is a good idea. If you could use the security code idea others have talked about, I would add that in as well. This site is the best that I know of, and anything that you can do to improve it is a good move.
My focus is on:
1. Avoid the opening chop.
2. Honor stops
3. Ensure reward > risk on all trades
Mike I agree. Make email verification with a valid phone number a requirement. I can't see doing much more than that without hurting some of the current members onsite.
Changing to elite only downloads may be a good idea, but it wont stop people from stealing/selling stuff. The people that are doing that, will gladly pay the fee to get in and take what they want. It will certainly help with bots though.
Anything that was put up as non-elite though is really fair game, and no one should have an expectation that someone else is not going to take it and run with it.
Great topic and from my own standpoint I saw futures.io (formerly BMT) and realized what a great place it was immediately and wanted to contribute and did so within my first hour on the site. I have not posted alot because I am in learning mode and still absorbing alot of what is on the site.
One thing I would like to see for elite members is the ability to download the webinars. This may already be the case and I just don't know how. I am usually trying to access them from my laptop when I have free time and am on a weaker internet connection at that point. It would be nice to be able to D/L the webinars and take them with me.
That said, whatever you need to do to protect the integrity of the site is what you should do. I think I agree that 50 posts is a lot of posts. But if they don't wish to support the site by contributing then they should support it in other ways in return for all thats offered here.
Best regards and I am so happy to have found this place.
Mike, I agree with your thoughts on allowing downloads by elite members only. Although I am not an avid poster and am not outspoken on boards, we do have to start somewhere. If someone is unwilling to pay the reasonable membership fee, one would have to question their sincerity as a trader and desire to know more rather than just to see their thoughts (whether good or bad) in print. I, for one, hate to read through numerous posts just to find one morsel of worthwhile information. Just my thoughts.
Of course NOTHING is going to completely stop all abuse of people's indicators, but it might slow it down.
Just like any other type of countermeasure..... seat-belts don't stop all roadside casualties, nor are chaffs a guarantee to re-direct a missile aimed at a fighter plane. But they are at least 'some' measure of protection.
That's all this would do, is possibly slow-down or deter some people from abusing the download section. Probably better than not having it.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a clear an ideal solution for the problem but sincerely hope you will come up with one that insures the survival of this truly excellent forum. I'd like to add my thanks for all your continuing hard work in creating and maintaining it.
I am new to this forum. This is one of the very few good forums I could find on the internet. More rigorous sign up verification, telephone, unique security code for each login. You generate the code from the smartphone via a software you can only download if passing the first verification step. Much like google's 2 step verification login.
Best Regards
The following user says Thank You to realbrush for this post:
My vote would be to go ahead and make all downloads for Elite only. I'm brand new to the board and just returned to trading after about a 6 year hiatus. Due to this I haven't posted anything because I don't feel like I have anything to contribute just yet, so I would vote against tying the downloads to a certain number of posts.
In some ways, I would recommend that you not do lifetime memberships and instead charge $50/year. Given the content you're working on, I think it justifies itself. The recurring fee ensures that you have people that are serious about trading and being a part of the community and would maybe provide some more dependable revenue to cover site expenses and finance further improvements/additions (hopefully).
My two cents and my first post... On second thought, perhaps this post is only worth one cent.
In my opinion the problem is not easy to solve. I am the best example. I havenīt been posting anything yet, but the simple reason is that I am not a good trader. More than that I do not have a clue of programming (and at last my English is not very good). On the other side I am very thankful for the work of all the guys that support this forum with their postings and programmings and learned a lot. In my opinion Mike is right when he wants to make downloads available only to Elite members, there are really too much people that do not have any respect for the work of others. I would rise the cost of the membership, it is worth more much than $50.
I like this forum very much and wish that it survives.
People spent way more money on useless books, software, indicators etc.....
Thanks to the great work of everybody on this site, threads and indicators have been created which are
interesting and new. In order to protect the site and the group a mandatory membership for downloads
is a very little price.
After all the financial markets have hopefully not changed that much in the last years, that suddenly 50 bucks
can be an issue even worth discussing, if spending it will help you to make better trades.
To take it one step further, why not make it a club and charge a yearly fee or letīs call it a little thank you to Mike
for his consistent hard work on this site!
If one is a consistent contributor and feels that he should/can not pay, the club could donate "scholar-ships"
I agree that downloads should be "elite only". I think there should be a minimun annual fee of $50-$100, too, especially for us newbies who have nothing to contribute at this time.
Thanks, Mike.
I have never posted anything. If it is not worthwhile and would add some benefit, why waste the space and everyone's time reading something of no value. I have mostly used this site as "consumers Report" of trading systems that are sold, to get an idea of what other people think about it. Boy does some bashing and negative stuff go on there.
So I guess its your site and you should do what you feel is right, and I will just have to agree to whatever you decide.
). This poll will quickly give us an overview on what the interest level is.
Is there anyway to put in a tag in the script, that only futures.io (formerly 
).When I started out in the forums this year, I too was an indicator addict (always thought the indicators had the answer). I bought packages and always thought I'd found the answer (naive mistake that was) and downloaded a heap of them from this site as well. There were then a number of indicators I saw appealing to me in the elite section, and decided $50 was worth the money. In hindsight, funnily enough, it turns out indicators have nothing to do with me be successful or not. The webinars and the information shared among forum members on various ways of trading, and tweaks for improving profitable methods (not systems) was where the real gold was. Sure, indicators can help confirm entry and exit 
dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see 
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
Some sort of additional qualification would be nice in order to gain access to such a brilliantly wrtten collection of trading indicators.
