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-- Big Mike, Site Administrator
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Let me start by saying I haven't read all the thread.
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I believe that spiritually the grimy will always fail.
The thesis of you site - as I understand it - was people helping people. So therefore it is more about good energy.
Those who developed and share their work thoughts and ideas do so in this spirit to help each other. Many have spent countless hours of their time giving. There are great examples of this. I recall a problem I had and @ trendisyourfriend posted something he had paid to have programmed for him. Beth posted hundreds of pages in her journal. @ sharky, @ cory, @ Fat Tails, @ LukeGeniol @ redratsal @ Gabriyeleand so many others have given freely and generously of their time, knowledge and effort.
What about new people?
If the come to your site and feel note I said feel that this guy is only interested in my money - why would they go elite? If there is little of value on the free side then why would they bother to stay? You must nourish the free side if you want your site to flourish - for the members who give, give freely.
I know that I have spent countless hours taking the time to detail ideas in posts (perhaps with much success LOL) but I take the extra time, attention and detail to make my posts professional. If they find value to the reader then I am well paid for I have served my fellow man.
I do not ask for money for my time and effort -thanks would be nice but that is gravy.
You had a tablet contest - teach your technique. I gave, what I felt, was valuable input to improving the contest because you asked for it. (such as each person posting a summary of what the would teach - so readers could go to the threads that interested them as their time to read is limited -- as FT so correctly pointed out when you asked why so few voted). This effort was to help you. Help you make a stronger site - and as a by-product more money for you.
-------------- The work and time and effort in programming by the members is given.
But are the indicators the only value to the site? NO!!!
Ideas methods and discussion are very important.
You can't buy success in trading. You can't slap on an indicator, turn the handle and pump out money. It just doesn't work that way. You know this - we all do.
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There will always be those who try to take the easy route to money - go to the site -get some indicators and repackage and sell them to the naive. They - like other grimy, low-moral, people will fail. But the Good Omnipresent Divine will take care of that.
--------- Clumsy measures won't work but what they will do is ruin the energy of your site.
You are only looking at it from "defense against the stealing bots" in my humble opinion.
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I have a better solution for:
"Right now, too many "bots" are downloading our indicators and posting them on other sites as their own. Right now, too many real people register "fake" accounts because they can't even be bothered to spend 30 seconds to type in correct info when they register, all because all they want is to download something and likely never participate further in the site.
I previously tried enforcing a 10 post minimum for downloads, but all that did was have people create 10 junk posts. So that isn't going to work."
.(ok lots of typing -probably a waste of time. so I'd better stop)
(In passing I totally agree with sharky's "if I want to post a free indicator or if I want to post and elite indicator why can't I?"
I believe 'pay to play' works, and would support it's implementation in the case here, placing all downloadable content in the Elite section. I do believe that those whose intent is of a devious nature, will pay for the privilege and still behave the same way, and if that happens, then the effectiveness of the Elite section will become diluted eventually. You might consider creating one additional level above Elite, as it pertains to downloads only for content that would be considered by Mike and/or others of his choosing, to be more of a confidential and code sensitive nature and price that level accordingly - just to create one more economic barrier to those who wish to behave poorly.
So...I am not elite member..yet. But making all downloads only for elite traders makes sense. There are too many people registered here and you simply can't watch all of them. So - if I would need to download anything I think there are many possibilities how to do it. For example I can ask politely the person who created the stuff I want to download and maybe he will send me link (its up to him than if he think he can trust me). Or I can simply buy elite membership. So I think it is definitely a good idea to lock download sections to elites only!
I've been reading a lot of these posts with interest. I think a lot of you though are still missing the point.
As someone that does contribute code, I am fully aware that someone might use my code in ways I may have or have not imagined, including
- copy it, call it their own, and sell it as a trading system
- use it to successfully improve their trading
I am fully aware of these "risks" when I have chosen to upload it.
There are reasons when I choose NOT to upload something, such as
- Someone might copy it, call it their own, and sell it as a trading system and maybe I want to reserve the right to do that myself so I want to keep it a "secret"
- Someone might use it successfully in their own trading, but if too many people do the the supposed "edge" it will no longer work for me
- It is complex and I don't want to be bothered with customer support issues/private messages from other futures.io (formerly BMT) members
If someone is going to use my code to start a business, I say more power to them. They are doing something with it I either chose not to do or didn't think would be worth the time. I am fully aware that these quacks will not attribute anything to my work, but they may be somewhat justified in their negligence because they will probably make modifications and enhancements that might make it almost unrecognizable from my original code. Also, the steps of taking an indicator or strategy gleaned off a forum and turning it into a (viable) commercial product takes (a lot of) work.
In the open source software world, innovation is often spurred on by other's works. Open source developers are dealing with these sort of issues all of the time. Their remedy is to choose how they want to license the software to the world (GNU, MIT, Apache, etc) and that's their choice. Some people/companies that break those licenses have been sued and sometimes lost, having to pay up to millions of dollars in damages.
So maybe futures.io (formerly BMT) just needs to offer different licensing agreements to the uploaders, and let the contributors battle it out in the courts if someone has broken the license agreement. I'd hate to turn off the spigot of generosity and innovation. One thing developers could do is put the license agreement the software is licensed under as comments in the header of the code.
Plus, and this is for Mike, futures.io (formerly BMT) gets serious Google juice from these public downloads. Just Google "Ninjatrader {x}" where {x} is the name of an indicator, like roonius' "Slingshot" indicator. futures.io (formerly BMT) often ranks high on these searches. It'd be a shame to lose so much juice. On the other hand, maybe Mike just doesn't want to deal with 30+ new members a day, and like he said, if he could find a way to filter out scammers and BS-ers to protect the content's quality then he'd be all for it. So how else can scammers be filtered out? It's an age-old problem when managing online communities like this. In the end, it usually takes human moderation and vetting to do it.
Pay per download. Elite only downloads. There are soo many sites/forums with free downloads, especially for Metatrader, but soo few for Ninjatrader. There are sooo many indis available, how many can one person use? I personally only use Two, although I have downloaded and tried many,many, would I have done so if I had had to pay to get them, probably not.
Thank you to all of you cleverer than I people who have the ability to turn their thoughts into indis, but if you do not want your intelectual property stolen then why post them in the free section, although, if I wanted to make capital from your property, $50 would be a small price to pay when you consider how much it costs to have an indi written.
Is anything that is available actually that Unique that a similar version can not be found elsewhere, look at the so called proprietary systems, most of their components come from within the free domain anyway. And just about everything is a rehash of someone elses ideas that have been around since electronic trading started.
I am a Ninjatrader Trader and use this forum for that purpose. I do not post because I do not presume to have the knowledge to pass on to others, I rarely comment because there are enough people with opinions on all the forums. The Ninjatrader support forum solves my problems, usually quickly.
Why am I here? I paid $50 to get access to an indi that was not available in the free area.
like to say that this Forum is very helpful and i like it very much. $50 would be a small price for all the imputs, i get by reading the threats. Thanks for all.
Regards from Germany with my broken english... :-)
Dear Big Mike,
I have tried to read all the posts.
And the majority are prepared to pay to become elite members.
Now how did I find your forum. I was directed here by Google.
I think I was looking for info on a book ."Trading in lion country"
And I think your forum had the info.
But if I was asked to first pay $50, I would have moved on.
There are dozens of trading forums and they desperately need new posts , new ideas,every day, to remain popular.
That means they need new members, continuously. As I type this there are 12 members and 13 guests on this thread.
Your "closed elite forum "will slowly petter out.
The same people are talking to one another . There is no new blood No new stupid questions. And the answers become stale.
I would probably pay to stay a member.
But I think you should retain the status quo.
Kind regards
bobc
