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Elite only for ALL downloads?
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Created: by Big Mike Attachments:0

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Elite only for ALL downloads?

  #421 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Iowa City
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ??
Favorite Futures: Gold
Posts: 2 since Feb 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

This probably has already been said, but many people who wish to learn and download indicators for free often don't use them because there is a lack of perceived value. Taking that extra step to become an elite member may force a lot of lurkers who are just hoarding information to utilize the downloads to earn a return on their money spent.

I vote for elite only downloads. (Now where is my checkbook?)

<-- classic lurker type

  #422 (permalink)
Elite Member
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Multicharts, R
Favorite Futures: EUR / USD
Posts: 185 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 106 given, 98 received

Value is not in the indicators

Hi Mike

For me, the value futures.io (formerly BMT) offers is not in the indicators or strategies, but in the wealth of discussion and advice you get from seasoned professionals and (for the most part) the absence of abuse and idiot comments.

I contribute indicators and strategies. If someone wants to download these, let them as they are missing the point.

I would much rather concentrate our efforts on keeping the forum free of idiots and focused on the core topics of education, sharing experiences and knowledge amongst ourselves to make us into better traders for which futures.io (formerly BMT) is famous for and makes it such a fantastic place to participate in.


  #423 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MT4
Favorite Futures: ES
Posts: 7 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

I am new to the forum, so my thoughts are not much more than thoughts. Personaly, I enjoy the forum and the response to my posts. Truthfully, I joined because I was looking for a download (which you had - thank you). If not for my search, I would never have landed here, so I am quite grateful.
I would like to thank you for the time and effort you put into this forum.

  #424 (permalink)
Elite Member
Houston, TX
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Favorite Futures: ES, TF
Posts: 2 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

Downloads for elite status only: Yes

If people aren't willing to invest the small amount to become a complete member of the site then they probably aren't willing to invest time in the material available here.

Personally I signed up as an elite member to get to the webinars. So making the downloads another benefit to elite members is certainly reasonable. Just make sure the non-elite members can actually look at the download section though, that way they can peruse the list of great downloads and when they find something they want the can become an elite member to get it.

Thanks for asking Big Mike


  #425 (permalink)
Elite Member
Indianapolis, IN
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Currency Futures
Posts: 1 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

Good idea, anything to clean up the troll activity. I'm not much of a poster but occasionally will participate.
Keep up the good work!

  #426 (permalink)
Elite Member
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader,IB(TWS)
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: ES,6E,CL
Posts: 20 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 41 given, 1 received


  #427 (permalink)
Elite Member
Nepean, ON
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: interactive brokers
Favorite Futures: es
Posts: 25 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 30 given, 4 received

Although a lot of the indicaors are available in some form for free elswhere, others have been created by members who have dedicated a lot of time and effort to creating them and improving the forum. I would say downloads for elite members only.


  #428 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago Illinois USA
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: duh hammer!
wldman's Avatar
Posts: 2,262 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 1,060 given, 3,086 received

This seemed like a...

dichotomy to me. Either yea or nay on making downloads elite only. Mike did, I guess, ask for opinion. Mike you are getting lots of opinion, but in your revision of the original post or should I say clarification, you made your heart on this issue pretty clear.

Go ahead man, do what you think. You are gracious to consider the views of others. In doing that you acknowledge that the fourm, while you created it , is not "yours". That said the collective here, should submit to your authority and your leadership on this.

Interesting that so many want to debate so intensly a $50 dollar decision instead of trade the 100 tick moves.

  #429 (permalink)
Elite Member
Manchester UK
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MTPredictor
Favorite Futures: ES
Posts: 4 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 6 given, 0 received

So in the main, existing Elite members say yes. But you would expect that. Interestingly Fat Tails, a renown contributor, appears to be less strident ( I believe I've seen a message that leaves me with that impression ? )

Other members have not really passed an opinion.

Question : Does the site want to attract more members ? Does it want to educate ? We are all seeking knowledge. Wishing to learn. If you close the gate then how do prospective members place a value on the site and its members ? It is unlikely that a limited trial offer of membership will be of any use because of the likely restrictions to what prospective members will be able to gain access to.

Question : If members publish coded indicators then it is likely that they will have already considered how that code may be distributed and in who's hands it will end up ? Is the debate about stealing indicators ( previously offered for public use on the site ) or commercialism ?

  #430 (permalink)
Elite Member
darien, IL
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Dorman, Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: es, 6e
Posts: 5 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 14 given, 0 received

Big Mike View Post

I am contemplating a major / drastic change to the behavior of all downloads on the site. The change would be to make all downloads Elite Only. I mean all downloads, in posts, threads, downloads section, everywhere globally. The only exclusion would be images (screen shots), but all other file types would be available only to Elite Members.

I have mixed feelings on this, so wanted to get some feedback from the users to consider as well before making any decisions. The main reason for the desire to change is to protect the work and to protect the value of the community.

Right now, too many "bots" are downloading our indicators and posting them on other sites as their own. Right now, too many real people register "fake" accounts because they can't even be bothered to spend 30 seconds to type in correct info when they register, all because all they want is to download something and likely never participate further in the site.

I previously tried enforcing a 10 post minimum for downloads, but all that did was have people create 10 junk posts. So that isn't going to work.

It seems the best way to protect the collection of downloads the users have worked very hard on, is to restrict access to only those who are serious about trading.

It certainly doesn't have to be Elite only, but the only other realistic option to implement is the minimum post requirement. If I change it to say 50 (instead of what we tried before, 10) then maybe it would prevent people from creating 50 spam posts just to download something, but still allow people who are serious about trading - but for whatever reason aren't Elite members - to still download. But the problem is, 50 posts is far, far more than what most people have (unfortunately), so such a requirement is likely to just piss off a lot of people.

The desire to change is not about increasing Elite sign ups. In fact, lately I have been wondering if futures.io (formerly BMT) is getting "too big" as we've started to attract some of the trolls from other sites and sometimes some of the posts are getting unfriendly lately. I am fighting this very hard as I am sure you are as well. We all want futures.io (formerly BMT) to remain a unique place, a place where everyone is truly here to help, and not start arguments, call each other names, or other troll like behavior. So this might mean making futures.io (formerly BMT) a more exclusive place where only serious traders are welcome.

Now obviously, just because someone pays for Elite membership does not automatically mean they are a serious trader. But they are probably far less likely to be a trouble maker while paying for the privilege to be here.

So a move of making all downloads Elite only might stunt our growth in terms of new user sign ups to the site, but that is fine with me if it means that what growth we have is of a higher quality and caliber user. I don't want to make the requirement solely based on post count, because there are far, far too many people who do not post much but are still working very hard to improve their trading. These people have signed up for Elite status to help support the site, and I think that entitles them to receive the downloads without a minimum post requirement.

Anyway, so there it is. Some of my many thoughts on the matter. Please share yours. I'm hoping to get a good mix of replies from both Elite Members and non-Elite Members.


---- ADDED MON 9/5/11 9:36PM EST ----

Moderator Note

I'd like to thank everyone very much for the replies so far.

I want to make a few things very clear:

1) I am not entertaining any "pay per download" approach.

2) There will not be any extra charge for certain "extra" use of the site or extra functionality, etc, for Elite Members, this was never up for discussion. Elite Membership means you have all the site offers.

3) I am not entertaining any increase for Elite Membership fees at this time, and even if at a later date the fees were to change, all existing Elite Members would be grandfathered in naturally.

4) Verifying peoples identity via phone call is impractical and is not being considered. Over 30 new people sign up daily. A percentage of these people won't even list a nearby City, State or Country they live in, or they won't even list a valid email address. Asking for a phone number will probably give a large percentage of people heart attacks, and if not, I would certainly have one myself trying to call everyone and explain why I am calling. This is not an option.

That said, here are a few more thoughts:

a) Implementing Captcha's doesn't work, Captcha's don't prevent spam - they only annoy users.

b) Asking users to put their work in certain sections of the forum has more or less not been successful. As someone said, "people will be people", and that by in large means they aren't going to follow rules - they will just do whatever is easiest. What this means is by default, the most file sharing occurs in the open forum because it is simply easier. Even though the overwhelming majority of the contributors are Elite Members.

c) So far, regarding the non-Elite Members who have replied to this thread in opposition for changing the site to an Elite Only download configuration --- these members have very rarely posted or contributed anything to the forum. I understand that some people do expect everything to be free or given to them, especially on the internet, and object to anything other than that approach. But the overwhelming majority of these people have shared very little to nothing with the community, they only take. I'm just looking at the numbers. Obviously there are exceptions. When looking to make a decision for the greater good of the entire community, I am mainly interested in doing what is best for those who are active givers or sharers in the community.

d) Copyrighting code, implementing GNU licensing, obfuscating indicators, etc -- these things sound good until you try to understand what is actually involved. First, the people stealing the code could care less about copyrights or licensing. Second, obfuscating code is dangerous and goes against the nature of open sharing (even open sharing within the Elite Only community) because you can't see the code, you can't easily manipulate it or expand upon it, etc. Third, implementing a licensing system like a Vendor where everyone has to be licensed to run an indicator is impractical.

e) No change will stop or correct all the problems. But I'd like to at least curtail it. The general consensus is, when people "pay to play" as someone said, they are more likely to be civil and appreciative towards one another, which fosters a better community atmosphere. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe we've demonstrated this is the overall case.

OK, that said, I am still thinking everything over and reading each post. I've not reached any decisions except with regards to the above.

I would like to hear more from non-Elite Members. I realize I can't please everyone, but since the change is going to affect you the most, I'd like to hear more from you. In particular if you are active on the forums (lots of posts, lots of sharing, have received lots of thanks -- but have chosen to not become an Elite Member) I'd like to hear from you.


I would allow downloads to Elite members only. The cost is minimal. If somebody can't afford it, they're in the wrong business. There are people who will "take" all day but they're probably not what you want to grow the room. I have gotten many benefits from my membership and enjoy it very much.
Thanks for doing this.

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