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Elite only for ALL downloads?
Started:September 2nd, 2011 (07:08 AM) by Big Mike Views / Replies:48,388 / 524
Last Reply:September 10th, 2011 (02:54 PM) Attachments:0

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Elite only for ALL downloads?

Old September 6th, 2011, 02:08 AM   #371 (permalink)
 Vendor: tradingcode.net 
The Netherlands
Futures Experience: None
Platform: MultiCharts, TradingView
Favorite Futures: -
Jura's Avatar
Posts: 766 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 2,347 given, 643 received

Great idea, but don't sacrifice privacy

I'm a little bit late to this discussion, so I haven't read all 38 pages, but I'd like to add that I think this is a great idea Mike. From my standpoint, I've recently stopped contributing and being as active with posting than I was earlier. The biggest reason for this was that I was somewhat disappointed that I, and other posters, sometimes seemed to care more about the issue than the person who brought the issue / question forward. I'm not assigning blame here - I think it's normal behaviour on a big, anonymous forum - but it is somewhat disappointing from my standpoint. If all the downloads are elite only, I think (hope) that we have more serious discussion, and not people who just drop a question, and log in a week later to collect the answers.

Just my two cents.

Big Mike View Post
Verifying peoples identity via phone call is impractical and is not being considered. Over 30 new people sign up daily. A percentage of these people won't even list a nearby City, State or Country they live in, or they won't even list a valid email address. Asking for a phone number will probably give a large percentage of people heart attacks, and if not, I would certainly have one myself trying to call everyone and explain why I am calling. This is not an option.

raffu View Post
But real name verification would be ok and might stop some bad behaviour if it exist.

I'm okay with using our real first name (that can perhaps even make the discussion more personal and friendly), but please do not go into ways that compromise our privacy. People normally don't like this, and I certainly don't want to use my full, real name here. It's not that I don't trust BigMike with this info - but this should not be viewable to other users, and if futures.io (formerly BMT) gets hacked I do not want this incredibly sensitive information being in the public.

The same goes for listing the city that you live in - in my small town, I'm the only one with my surname. Would I be comfortable that the whole world (yes, futures.io (formerly BMT) is that big ) can look into the telephone book and find my, and my family, address and phone number? Definitely not.

I agree that spammers and just unfriendly people should be filtered out, but I do not think that giving up privacy is (or ever will be) the answer.

Best regards,


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:11 AM   #372 (permalink)
Elite Member
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MC
Favorite Futures: fx
Posts: 16 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 135 given, 22 received

I'm for this change. The quality of the forum is it's main asset. Anything that improves quality is good.


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:14 AM   #373 (permalink)
Elite Member
Calcutta, India
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Platform: ArthaChitra
Posts: 278 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 161 given, 255 received

theres nothing on the earth that can stop leechers, spammers, trolls, etc. its a side effect of being successful.

As I write this thread is 38 pages long. We could have used our resource in a better way.


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:19 AM   #374 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Metastock
Favorite Futures: Stocks
Posts: 2 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 1 given, 1 received

Don't think that is the way to go...

There are a few people out there who for some reasons may not be a part of the Elite membership group. If the intention of the uploader is to share his code/asset with everybody (incl. non-Elite members), it would be a disservice to him.
I think the choice to limit access to the upload should be left to the original owner of the asset. If he so wishes, he may restrict the asset only to Elite members.
Just my 2 cents.

The following 2 users say Thank You to SawViper for this post:

Old September 6th, 2011, 02:27 AM   #375 (permalink)
Elite Member
Fort Collins, CO
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Zaner Zen-Fire
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whoisthere48's Avatar
Posts: 32 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 185 given, 29 received

Why not try Capitalism ?

Futures Edge on FIO
First I REALLY APPRECIATE all the great trading help I have gotten from this site and it would not have happened if Mike had not stepped up and taken his time and money to put it on the web and guided it to it's current state.

I believe Mike is entitled to any and all financial benefits he can get from this site as a small recompense for all he has done for those of us who value and frequent the site.

And let me say that I would not mind paying a small (auto-bill) monthly fee for the privilege of using the site and getting access to what those with great minds and giving spirits have provided here.

That said, here is my idea for Mike that I would love to see...
Try what has worked for America... capitalism... build a better mousetrap and sell it. Mike should offer something like a vendor area within futures.io (formerly BMT). In the vendor area contributors (call them "vendors") could sell whatever they want at whatever price they want and Mike gets 50% of the price as his commission. If it's too much it won't sell. If it's junk, the vendor's ratings (in plain view) will show that. That way, the talented traders here would be more motivated to offer up great indicators, strategies, webinars (especially on coding for NinjaTrader) and so on. Just think how great that would be. The law of the marketplace, at work again!

It is my hope that I could learn enough about trading (and coding) to be one of those vendors making a few bucks but more importantly helping out some folks who are searching and struggling in a morass of trading BS to find a way to make a living trading.

At the risk of being politically incorrect (not the first time)... God bless you Mike.

Richard in Colorado


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #376 (permalink)
Elite Member
Kaunas, Lithuania
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts
Broker/Data: IB/IQFeed
Favorite Futures: Stocks, Futures
neriusb's Avatar
Posts: 15 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 16 given, 11 received

About downloads to Elite members only

I think it's good decision.

Best regards


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #377 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Betfair
Posts: 4 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

I also favour the change, please give access to everyone .

It means more feedback, better sharing of information and finally the overall quality of the forum will definitely improve.


Old September 6th, 2011, 02:31 AM   #378 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.probabletrades.com 
OC, California, USA
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Maybe try implementing a more sophisticated reputation system, something like StackOverflow.

Or, to download something, you must upload something. When someone downloads it you get 1 download credit. This could create lots of fake accounts of people downloading their own stuff just to get credits. Also, it only rewards uploaders/developers. Perhaps you could give the uploader the option of who can download it. Having the choice to put something in Elite Downloads or normal download area does that already.

I don't know, just thinking out loud. I think more choice to the creators might help, a-la Creative Commons or Google+ Circles concept. After all, uploaders have different reasons for contributing, let them choose who gets to benefit from their work.

Last edited by shodson; September 6th, 2011 at 02:40 AM.

Old September 6th, 2011, 02:43 AM   #379 (permalink)
Elite Member
Seattle, WA
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader, etradePro
Favorite Futures: ES
GTNorthwest's Avatar
Posts: 4 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 11 given, 1 received


I am very new to this community and until the last couple of days have been a non-Elite member.

It doesn't take long for the average person who is interested in trading and looking for useful resources, to see that futures.io (formerly BMT) is a valid, friendly, valuable resource. I decided to contribute financialy to/for this forum because... A) $25 or $50 is a pitence for someone willing to risk thousands for a profit., and....B) It's the right thing to do, to show legitimate support and appreciation for good people and useful information.

My two cents worth is that anyone who doesn't WANT to pay ( not just isn't WILLING to pay) is either one of the types you are trying to avoid with your tentative changes, or, is the type who is confused about how the world, and the realities of doing business in said world, really operates.

It is obvious that you have put much thought and consideration into this dilema, and if paying for Elite membership will help keep the forum the user-friendly resource that it now is, then I say it's a no-brainer.



Big Mike View Post

I am contemplating a major / drastic change to the behavior of all downloads on the site. The change would be to make all downloads Elite Only. I mean all downloads, in posts, threads, downloads section, everywhere globally. The only exclusion would be images (screen shots), but all other file types would be available only to Elite Members.

I have mixed feelings on this, so wanted to get some feedback from the users to consider as well before making any decisions. The main reason for the desire to change is to protect the work and to protect the value of the community.

Right now, too many "bots" are downloading our indicators and posting them on other sites as their own. Right now, too many real people register "fake" accounts because they can't even be bothered to spend 30 seconds to type in correct info when they register, all because all they want is to download something and likely never participate further in the site.

I previously tried enforcing a 10 post minimum for downloads, but all that did was have people create 10 junk posts. So that isn't going to work.

It seems the best way to protect the collection of downloads the users have worked very hard on, is to restrict access to only those who are serious about trading.

It certainly doesn't have to be Elite only, but the only other realistic option to implement is the minimum post requirement. If I change it to say 50 (instead of what we tried before, 10) then maybe it would prevent people from creating 50 spam posts just to download something, but still allow people who are serious about trading - but for whatever reason aren't Elite members - to still download. But the problem is, 50 posts is far, far more than what most people have (unfortunately), so such a requirement is likely to just piss off a lot of people.

The desire to change is not about increasing Elite sign ups. In fact, lately I have been wondering if futures.io (formerly BMT) is getting "too big" as we've started to attract some of the trolls from other sites and sometimes some of the posts are getting unfriendly lately. I am fighting this very hard as I am sure you are as well. We all want futures.io (formerly BMT) to remain a unique place, a place where everyone is truly here to help, and not start arguments, call each other names, or other troll like behavior. So this might mean making futures.io (formerly BMT) a more exclusive place where only serious traders are welcome.

Now obviously, just because someone pays for Elite membership does not automatically mean they are a serious trader. But they are probably far less likely to be a trouble maker while paying for the privilege to be here.

So a move of making all downloads Elite only might stunt our growth in terms of new user sign ups to the site, but that is fine with me if it means that what growth we have is of a higher quality and caliber user. I don't want to make the requirement solely based on post count, because there are far, far too many people who do not post much but are still working very hard to improve their trading. These people have signed up for Elite status to help support the site, and I think that entitles them to receive the downloads without a minimum post requirement.

Anyway, so there it is. Some of my many thoughts on the matter. Please share yours. I'm hoping to get a good mix of replies from both Elite Members and non-Elite Members.


---- ADDED MON 9/5/11 9:36PM EST ----

Moderator Note

I'd like to thank everyone very much for the replies so far.

I want to make a few things very clear:

1) I am not entertaining any "pay per download" approach.

2) There will not be any extra charge for certain "extra" use of the site or extra functionality, etc, for Elite Members, this was never up for discussion. Elite Membership means you have all the site offers.

3) I am not entertaining any increase for Elite Membership fees at this time, and even if at a later date the fees were to change, all existing Elite Members would be grandfathered in naturally.

4) Verifying peoples identity via phone call is impractical and is not being considered. Over 30 new people sign up daily. A percentage of these people won't even list a nearby City, State or Country they live in, or they won't even list a valid email address. Asking for a phone number will probably give a large percentage of people heart attacks, and if not, I would certainly have one myself trying to call everyone and explain why I am calling. This is not an option.

That said, here are a few more thoughts:

a) Implementing Captcha's doesn't work, Captcha's don't prevent spam - they only annoy users.

b) Asking users to put their work in certain sections of the forum has more or less not been successful. As someone said, "people will be people", and that by in large means they aren't going to follow rules - they will just do whatever is easiest. What this means is by default, the most file sharing occurs in the open forum because it is simply easier. Even though the overwhelming majority of the contributors are Elite Members.

c) So far, regarding the non-Elite Members who have replied to this thread in opposition for changing the site to an Elite Only download configuration --- these members have very rarely posted or contributed anything to the forum. I understand that some people do expect everything to be free or given to them, especially on the internet, and object to anything other than that approach. But the overwhelming majority of these people have shared very little to nothing with the community, they only take. I'm just looking at the numbers. Obviously there are exceptions. When looking to make a decision for the greater good of the entire community, I am mainly interested in doing what is best for those who are active givers or sharers in the community.

d) Copyrighting code, implementing GNU licensing, obfuscating indicators, etc -- these things sound good until you try to understand what is actually involved. First, the people stealing the code could care less about copyrights or licensing. Second, obfuscating code is dangerous and goes against the nature of open sharing (even open sharing within the Elite Only community) because you can't see the code, you can't easily manipulate it or expand upon it, etc. Third, implementing a licensing system like a Vendor where everyone has to be licensed to run an indicator is impractical.

e) No change will stop or correct all the problems. But I'd like to at least curtail it. The general consensus is, when people "pay to play" as someone said, they are more likely to be civil and appreciative towards one another, which fosters a better community atmosphere. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe we've demonstrated this is the overall case.

OK, that said, I am still thinking everything over and reading each post. I've not reached any decisions except with regards to the above.

I would like to hear more from non-Elite Members. I realize I can't please everyone, but since the change is going to affect you the most, I'd like to hear more from you. In particular if you are active on the forums (lots of posts, lots of sharing, have received lots of thanks -- but have chosen to not become an Elite Member) I'd like to hear from you.



Old September 6th, 2011, 02:53 AM   #380 (permalink)
Elite Member
New Zealand
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: Mirus/Zenfire
Favorite Futures: Currencies, YM, CL
Posts: 62 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 264 given, 31 received


Hi Mike
I agree with placing all downloads (except screen shots) in the Elite section - this would certainly make it easier for people when participating in threads and wishing to include indicators.


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