Stop Hunts - Are they really what the name entails? Or is there more to them? - Emini Index Futures Trading | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Stop Hunts - Are they really what the name entails? Or is there more to them?
Updated: Views / Replies:1,417 / 30
Created: by JMoniker Attachments:5

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 100,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 5  
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Stop Hunts - Are they really what the name entails? Or is there more to them?

  #11 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Batavia NY
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: TWS, Python, R
Favorite Futures: Common stock, ETFs, YM, options
 
Posts: 22 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 6 given, 23 received


TheShrike View Post
The only boogeymen are in your own head. Retail traders make up a tiny fraction of the overall volume in any market. No one cares about your stop. It's all in your head.

I agree but IMO it is an even deeper issue. To me Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens was just completely mind blowing because once you understand what an advantage our storytelling/narrative building brain is you see it all over and misapplied in something like trading/finance.

"The stock market went up today because of X" says the news story headline. Of course building a narrative from a dynamic stochastic system based on one day of data is preposterous but people gravitate to that so naturally you can build billion dollar fictional financial news businesses.

Stop hunting is basically another fictional narrative to try to make sense of a stochastic process.

To me one of the hardest parts of trading is trying to see that stochastic process in its naked form without all these fictional stories grafted on top of it.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to centaurer for this post:
 
  #12 (permalink)
Professional Guesser
Reading UK
 
Trading Experience: None
Platform: Sierra
Favorite Futures: My 3 boys
 
Grantx's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,424 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 1,941 given, 3,381 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary

Answer
This post has been selected as an answer to the original posters question Answer


Pa Dax View Post
Nothing to do with stop runners or what ever. The market doesn't care about your step - your trade size isn't relevant to institutions.

You should have just stopped there. The rest makes absolutely no sense and is pure speculation. What kebab said about liquidity is spot on.
Lets reduce and simplify his explanation.
Imagine youre looking at a 20 level price ladder and price is currently at the top. There is only 1 contract at each level below so the entire combined liquidity pool of all the other participants in this price range adds up to 20. Lets also pretend that you are are holding 20 contracts which you need to sell. You are not allowed to sell any contracts worse than 4 levels from where it is now and by that I mean if the market moves down 4 levels, you have to stop selling and wait for buyers to push the market back into your 'sell range'. The quickest easiest way to achieve this is to find liquidity higher up. You have to push the market up in order to sell.

Its quite simple.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Grantx for this post:
 
  #13 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: NInjaTrader Brokerage
Favorite Futures: ES, 6E, 6J,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 643 since May 2017
Thanks: 688 given, 1,426 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



Grantx View Post
You should have just stopped there. The rest makes absolutely no sense and is pure speculation. What kebab said about liquidity is spot on.
Lets reduce and simplify his explanation.
Imagine youre looking at a 20 level price ladder and price is currently at the top. There is only 1 contract at each level below so the entire combined liquidity pool of all the other participants in this price range adds up to 20. Lets also pretend that you are are holding 20 contracts which you need to sell. You are not allowed to sell any contracts worse than 4 levels from where it is now and by that I mean if the market moves down 4 levels, you have to stop selling and wait for buyers to push the market back into your 'sell range'. The quickest easiest way to achieve this is to find liquidity higher up. You have to push the market up in order to sell.

Its quite simple.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

would you care to elaborate how he is wrong? I use very similar techniques and works well.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Interested in what my setup looks like, take a look below and be sure to press thanks!!!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-83.html#post702046
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
  #14 (permalink)
Professional Guesser
Reading UK
 
Trading Experience: None
Platform: Sierra
Favorite Futures: My 3 boys
 
Grantx's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,424 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 1,941 given, 3,381 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


MiniP View Post
would you care to elaborate how he is wrong? I use very similar techniques and works well.

-P

I never said he was wrong.

Reply With Quote
 
  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
Braselton GA/USA
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8
Favorite Futures: ES
 
JMoniker's Avatar
 
Posts: 20 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 25 given, 17 received


Grantx View Post
You should have just stopped there. The rest makes absolutely no sense and is pure speculation. What kebab said about liquidity is spot on.
Lets reduce and simplify his explanation.
Imagine youre looking at a 20 level price ladder and price is currently at the top. There is only 1 contract at each level below so the entire combined liquidity pool of all the other participants in this price range adds up to 20. Lets also pretend that you are are holding 20 contracts which you need to sell. You are not allowed to sell any contracts worse than 4 levels from where it is now and by that I mean if the market moves down 4 levels, you have to stop selling and wait for buyers to push the market back into your 'sell range'. The quickest easiest way to achieve this is to find liquidity higher up. You have to push the market up in order to sell.

Its quite simple.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

I think I'm following. If I understood correctly, the "hunt" isn't predatory, it actually has no concern for hurting anyone. The moves are for "them" to be able to carry out their desires how they see fit. So from the perspective of that price ladder, I understand why it would go up or down and the intent. To extrapolate further then, what can I do to better grasp their intent? Grant's picture is exactly the vicious doji I'm referring to. I don't understand what they were trying to do with that. Again, with the context of the fact that while it is a 5 minute doji, the bottom wick of that doji (the one with the extremely long tail) with no exaggeration, took 1 second to shoot down, and then 1 second to snap up into the body. The snap down, is that where they wanted to buy, which caused it to snap up? Is that it? Or they sold, which snapped it down, then a liquidity vacuum shot it up? That one long wick stabs through every bar formed since the open, the entire opening range as Grant pointed out, and then proceeds to rally. The stab...the stab is what keeps me up at night.

Everyone's answers are collectively bringing me closer and closer to understanding, I truly appreciate this guys.

Reply With Quote
 
  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
St. Louis
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: thinkorswim, NT8
Favorite Futures: equity and fx futures and options
 
Leon of Pizza's Avatar
 
Posts: 61 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 13 given, 62 received


JMoniker View Post
...inverse H&S on the 15 minute chart.

I never related to the anatomical analogy of the H&S. If you bought 2568, I see that as the shoulder or the neck. I wouldn't be eager to enter there. 2568 is a high volume price coming in to the open, so I wouldn't consider it a place to find a lot of resting stops. I would presume they are below the Globex L. If I wanted to fade a sell stop run below the Globex L, I would have a limit buy sitting at 2556, because its a basic measured move.


Quoting 
Did they do all that just to "test" 2562?

Not in any intentional sense. The "test" is just the revisiting of support. How it came to be revisited is less important than what they will do next. If buyers were trying to sell them down for a Globex L stop run, they failed. All they got was a slightly higher H or a DB. Anyone that got short in the H&S (the flat range) is not getting paid. That makes a case for buying the BO above 2574, which is where their buy stops are resting. So who's hunting who here? I dunno. best to just have a good chart laid out and trade basic S/R.


Quoting 
You're better than me. I'm as sure of it as you are.

Nice.

Attached Thumbnails
Stop Hunts - Are they really what the name entails? Or is there more to them?-es-190110-15m.png  
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Leon of Pizza for this post:
 
  #17 (permalink)
Elite Member
Amsterdam area
 
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, IB TWS
Broker/Data: InteractiveBrokers, Kinetick
Favorite Futures: ES, CL, FGBL, CAC40
 
Pa Dax's Avatar
 
Posts: 443 since Oct 2017
Thanks: 432 given, 1,894 received


Grantx View Post
You should have just stopped there. The rest makes absolutely no sense and is pure speculation.

The fact that it makes no sense to you is because of your narrative and the way you look at the market. You're trading based of Wyckoff and volume. That doesn't mean my methods and structure makes no sense. It just means you're ignorant of other approaches that work.
Also, this is an forum for sharing ideas and opinions. Surely you'll find many that you don't support. That's why I started the whole paragraph with 'I look at the price action as' to reflect it's my personal believe of how the markets work based on watching markets move tick by tick for numerous years.


Grantx View Post
What kebab said about liquidity is spot on.
Lets reduce and simplify his explanation.
Imagine youre looking at a 20 level price ladder and price is currently at the top. There is only 1 contract at each level below so the entire combined liquidity pool of all the other participants in this price range adds up to 20. Lets also pretend that you are are holding 20 contracts which you need to sell. You are not allowed to sell any contracts worse than 4 levels from where it is now and by that I mean if the market moves down 4 levels, you have to stop selling and wait for buyers to push the market back into your 'sell range'. The quickest easiest way to achieve this is to find liquidity higher up. You have to push the market up in order to sell.

Its quite simple.

Talk about nonsense and speculation ok. First off, a large number of orders don't come from the book but are simply market orders.
Liquidity an issue?? On the largest futures market in the world during market open? You can sell or buy a 100 lots without the market moving even a tick during these times. Traders in need to find liquidity in this situation is a reason I find hard to believe.

Reality is that there's tens of thousands of contracts traded during that 5m bar for thousands of different reasons. There will never be just one reason why price is making a turn. I'm just looking for my personal explanations that help me place a trade with a good risk reward ratio and this particular pattern is a great one for me.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Pa Dax for this post:
 
  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
Braselton GA/USA
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8
Favorite Futures: ES
 
JMoniker's Avatar
 
Posts: 20 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 25 given, 17 received

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).




Thank you Leon, I never thought to look at an H&S that way, especially where that level is an armpit. It's crazy how even a simply H&S pattern has so many different interpretations. I used your picture to show that was my inverse head and shoulders I thought I was going for. I guess in hindsight it was silly to expect that shoulder to be perfectly aligned to the other shoulder like on a human. I just wasn't ready for it to come down THAT far to the head, that quickly.

Reply With Quote
 
  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
Braselton GA/USA
 
Trading Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8
Favorite Futures: ES
 
JMoniker's Avatar
 
Posts: 20 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 25 given, 17 received


Pa Dax View Post
Nothing to do with stop runners or what ever. The market doesn't care about your step - your trade size isn't relevant to institutions.

I look at the price action as a trading range open. The bear reversal bar was a short set-up for bears in a trading range. They sell the close and go for a 1R target. That target is 2565. In addition, disappointed bears who sold the close of bar 4 will also want to get out. They have perhaps sold more at the bear reversal bar and want to get out break-even on their first trade and with a profit on their scale-in. Bulls know about this as well and as a result you see have buying at the 2565 and 2563.75.

If you have gone long on bar 6, you could have exited partially for a 1R profit at 2569.75 (1R) or keep your stop below the low instead of exiting cause it went down. The stop never got hit.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

I love theories like this. Your interpretation of what happened in the paragraph. It's like a story of what happened in those few bars. I did go long on bar 6, I did not exit for a profit because I am a potato. I exited when they came down. The past few days had been bad for me and I was hoping my adorable little inverse H&S would work out for me. But when that wick came down like lightening from the sky my mouse hit the "close position" button. I had a mental stop below the low, but I felt like having my stop there was so obvious to them that if I saw price coming down towards the head, I would exit quicker than having it go completely past the head and hit my stop. I should have just put an actual stop below that low and let it play out. I'm always so skeptical of double bottoms because they're too easy and obvious. Which is ironic because that's exactly what it was and it kicked me out. I don't know why I find it so hard to believe that they dropped it four points in an instant to touch EXACTLY the tip of that head and go back up. Not a single tick past. I didn't think it would stop there. The speed of that drop made it felt like it was gonna shoot right past the head and beyond.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to JMoniker for this post:
 
  #20 (permalink)
Professional Guesser
Reading UK
 
Trading Experience: None
Platform: Sierra
Favorite Futures: My 3 boys
 
Grantx's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,424 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 1,941 given, 3,381 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



Pa Dax View Post
The fact that it makes no sense to you is because of your narrative and the way you look at the market. You're trading based of Wyckoff and volume. That doesn't mean my methods and structure makes no sense. It just means you're ignorant of other approaches that work.
Also, this is an forum for sharing ideas and opinions. Surely you'll find many that you don't support. That's why I started the whole paragraph with 'I look at the price action as' to reflect it's my personal believe of how the markets work based on watching markets move tick by tick for numerous years.



Talk about nonsense and speculation ok. First off, a large number of orders don't come from the book but are simply market orders.
Liquidity an issue?? On the largest futures market in the world during market open? You can sell or buy a 100 lots without the market moving even a tick during these times. Traders in need to find liquidity in this situation is a reason I find hard to believe.

Reality is that there's tens of thousands of contracts traded during that 5m bar for thousands of different reasons. There will never be just one reason why price is making a turn. I'm just looking for my personal explanations that help me place a trade with a good risk reward ratio and this particular pattern is a great one for me.


For real? You find it hard to believe that larger institutions face different challenges to retailers and that they have no problem finding liquidity??? Your explanation was a subjective view based on your own personal interpretation of a few random candles. It had zero objective fact regarding the dynamics of a stop hunt (if thats what we are calling it). I believe that my explanation as viewed from a ladder chart is immutable. It is simple and makes sense. If you persist on basing your entire argument on the first 5 opening minutes, and deny the evidence from the rest of the days activity, then my friend, you are perpetuating an error based on a single frame of reference. You might want to look into that.

JMoniker, if you haven't done so already, I highly recommend that you spend some time learning to trade from a DOM viewpoint. Its a very different way of seeing the market and it will help immensely with understanding the dynamics of supply and demand. Dont get too pulled into other peoples opinion because there will always be a difference. I encourage you to investigate it for yourself. Ladder trading is a good way to broaden your perspective.

Good luck on your search!

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > > Stop Hunts - Are they really what the name entails? Or is there more to them?




Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)
 

Battlestations! Show us your trading desks w/GFF Brokers ($750 in Prizes)

January
 

Trading Preparedness w/GFF Brokers

Jan 22
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problem Event Name: AppHangB1 Application Name: esignal.exe crudetrader eSignal 0 April 12th, 2015 06:07 PM
If there is a god - his name is George Friedman puma Off-Topic 0 January 28th, 2015 05:05 AM
Cutting The Deficit: They Wonít Because They Donít Have To Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 November 22nd, 2011 07:10 PM
The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same tigertrader Off-Topic 0 October 8th, 2010 02:16 PM
Indicators, to have them or not to have them?! George Psychology and Money Management 11 September 6th, 2009 11:30 AM


Tags
5m_chart, 6e, aggressive trading, algo, algos, break-even, brokers, currency trading, data, dax, doji, dow, footprint, forex, futures, globex, hft, index_futures, information, institutional, intraday, ladder, level 2, momentum, move the markets, orders, patterns, position sizing, position_sizing, price action, profitable, prop trading, quotes, resistance, s/r, scan, short term, spread, stochastics, stock market, stop loss, switch, tf, tick, trading, trading plan, trend, type, volume, wicks, wyckoff

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:38 AM. (this page content is cached, log in for real-time version)

Copyright © 2019 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432 WhatsApp Business, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2019-01-23 in 0.18 seconds with 35 queries on phoenix