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Consistent Loser Looking for Trading Buddy to Reverse my Trades
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Consistent Loser Looking for Trading Buddy to Reverse my Trades

  #11 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Reading UK
 
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jeremymgp View Post
Hi kbit,

Thanks for the response and encouragement, agree with experimenting with another methodology you're right. At the same time, a good trader can make money from any moving average crosses and traders with poor psychology will lose whatever the methodology. I'm convinced psychology is everything. A few things am finding really are true:

- newbie traders trade the market perfectly. It's not they can't trade and don't know the markets, they lose with such consistency it's astonishing there is clearly some knowledge there that is worth investigating. What they don't know is what to do with that information, they use it in a way that is governed by emotion and so lose every time.

- traders have two minds. their high mental response, and their possibly more physiological emotional response. it is the battle between these two that is trading. It is a battle between the spiritual and physical even.

- rule based trading and having "an edge" with a setup I've found are often vague at best. The real reason rule-based systems work for discretionary traders is that the rules provide a framework for controlling your emotional response, and learning from your higher mental response which can respond to the markets very well.

- trading a demo account and a live one at the same time can help. Not to reverse each other, both in the same direction. I am convinced again there are two mindsets, one where you know you are trading to win on an account and one where you are trading to lose. These days I can literally feel the switch - where I regain control of myself and I know I am trading again to actually profit and in control, or am trading according to emotion and will lose, if you play around with reversing yourself for long enough the two states are distinct.

- A very recent discovery just yesterday. You can choose simply not to get emotional. Whenever emotional responses start kicking in, when you realize it just tell yourself "no emotion" and take a breath. You don't need to feel this, this one trade doesn't matter, and just do what the charts are already telling you. You know what the price is doing now, it's just responding to it logically and dispassionately, rather than emotionally. This looks to be exceptionally useful, you can make this choice.

Hope this helps people, this may be an unusual approach, but for me this is infinitely more rewarding than wiggly indicator lines, and this little act of confessionalism is in itself possibly something many traders could benefit from. I agree the honesty is refreshing, when you get truly, horrendously honest with your own trading performance and work through that, good things happen. Cheers,

Jeremy

Your psychological journey sounds similar to mine. When I first started trading I decided to focus on these 3 core things:

1. Money management.
2. Psychological.
3. Technical

I kept a diary and looking back its quite amusing how I dismissed the psychological aspect as just another 'thing' to deal with Little did I know that it would become the most formidable barricade I have ever had to overcome.

Each person will have their own internal journey to take and mine was one of self discovery. You can only truthfully start to look into yourself and understand how your mind works when your ego and emotions are not sabotaging your thought process. For me, trading and losing with such dazzling regularity absolutely smashed my confidence and expectations into dust. From this place, I started to see how counterproductive my emotions were, so I focused purely on my entry and exit method and executed relentlessly. I then started building up my trade stats and after a while of looking back and analysing my trade decisions, I began to realise that it is just a game of numbers...how can I get upset about numbers on an excel spreadsheet? As long as my stop losses are contained, and winners are generally bigger than my average loser then I can be mindful of this fact every time I get that self sabotaging insecurity when it's time to take a trade.

I think that what I am trying to say to you is that the path you are on is the correct one. You are not doing anything wrong because even though you are consistently losing, this in itself is your greatest opportunity to learn. You have already figured out how not to do it, and that is half the battle, you now have to analyse your past trades and you will see exactly where you have gone wrong.

Good luck. You will get their.

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  #12 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Pahrump, NV
 
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forgiven View Post
i have screened shared with some very good traders that were green most days...none of them i could use there method..here is why... in the end none used a hard set of rules for entry or management..that is the whole in the class of all the trading folks i have look at...and i seen a lot. by the tempo and what the market is not doing they can internalize that info and act on it. to put it in a better example it is like play music ... if you have herd or in there case seen that song many times you know when there is something off key... what ever method is used ..it is necessary to spend a lot of time on it...after you have internalize it..you see when it works but far more important. when it does not work..most trader do not go that way..they just keep looking..for something that works all the time // a lock .

I wonder why that is? Most of the traders I know trade with a clearly-articulatable set of well-defined rules. I myself have a setup so well-defined that I know exactly what my stop, entry, and exits are before I enter the trade. I can't imagine successfully trading any other way.

I have another friend who trades emotionally - "oh, the market is moving, I'm going to jump in!" Not surprisingly, she's not very successful at all.

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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
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grate experence



n7ekg View Post
I wonder why that is? Most of the traders I know trade with a clearly-articulatable set of well-defined rules. I myself have a setup so well-defined that I know exactly what my stop, entry, and exits are before I enter the trade. I can't imagine successfully trading any other way.

I have another friend who trades emotionally - "oh, the market is moving, I'm going to jump in!" Not surprisingly, she's not very successful at all.

share some of those set-ups and rules with the rest of us. the traders i referenced could tell when the trade was working and let it run or get out be for the stop was hit .. they could do that by reading order flow an market breath indicators..i have not had much luck with patterns or re test failures ,, brake outs...fibs, waves, profiles...the normal stuff//

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  #14 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Busan
 
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So many interesting messages here want to thank everyone, flipping the chart is another good idea, again if I knew it was inversed I'd still likely lose. There are definitely two distinct mindsets when trading, one to win and one to lose, it's trading with the winning one that is possibly how system traders do it, they have their rules not necessarily because the rules in themselves are that great, but because the rules provide the psychological framework to maintain the winning mindset.

One thing you can also do is turn the bars off, on Ninjatrader the anaHeikenAshi indicator by Lizard Indicators (free) for example will ass HeikenAshi smoothed bars and remove the original ones, that can remove noise.

Also am still looking for someone just to trade with, anyone, Grantx for example would be great. All I need is Skype and I'll share my screen, you'll hardly know I'm there, thanks again,

Jeremy

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  #15 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Busan
 
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You wouldn't happen to know how to create an inverse chart would you, I've got a copier that can reverse or just copy Ninjatrader trades, it uses all kinds of interesting code not officially supported by Ninjatrader but in the program, but a inverse chart never seen that before. If anyone has a solution do let me know thanks.

Or I could just turn my notebook upside down,

Jeremy


srgtroy View Post
@tturner86 and I have discussed this concept in the past, and we refer to it as the George Costanza method, from the Sienfeld episode where George realizes everything he does is wrong and so he does the exact opposite.

To that effect, the best way to trade this method is to simply create an 'inverse' price chart and trade it.

Let us know how it goes...

p.s. -- the interesting thing is that theoretically, if you start to realize you are consistently losing with this method, then just flip the chart back to normal


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  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
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jeremymgp View Post
You wouldn't happen to know how to create an inverse chart would you, I've got a copier that can reverse or just copy Ninjatrader trades, it uses all kinds of interesting code not officially supported by Ninjatrader but in the program, but a inverse chart never seen that before. If anyone has a solution do let me know thanks.

Or I could just turn my notebook upside down,

Jeremy

I did create an indicator for NT7 that has the option to invert prices here, but you have to be an elite member:

https://futures.io/download/vip_elite_circle/1599-download.html?view

Anyway, the basic concept is to multiply price by -1, which can be done in any program.

Know The Rules Well So You Can Break Them Effectively
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The following user says Thank You to srgtroy for this post:
 
  #17 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Busan
 
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srgtroy View Post
I did create an indicator for NT7 that has the option to invert prices here, but you have to be an elite member:

https://futures.io/download/vip_elite_circle/1599-download.html?view

Anyway, the basic concept is to multiply price by -1, which can be done in any program.

This is great thanks, thought of this before but assumed it would be complex coding, never thought to search for a pre-made one. There's also a free one I found at:
View Comments and Ratings - NinjaTrader Support Forum
so got that one as don't have Elite membership, early days but the psychology looks to be good to go, can read the charts just fine with minimal mental interference from being aware the trade is being reversed. Because it isn't being reversed so to speak, the basic psychological phenomenon of watching the chart move one way in the present, and so not being able to act the way you want on that but instead waiting for it to turn the other way in the future, is intact.

Also thought that seeing the positive profit/loss number would detract from performance, but no eventhere reading the chart is enough. Thanks ever so much, this is looking good must say,

Jeremy

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  #18 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Pahrump, NV
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: Infinity Futures
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, CL
 
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forgiven View Post
share some of those set-ups and rules with the rest of us. the traders i referenced could tell when the trade was working and let it run or get out be for the stop was hit .. they could do that by reading order flow an market breath indicators..i have not had much luck with patterns or re test failures ,, brake outs...fibs, waves, profiles...the normal stuff//

I use Murrey Math lines on a 4-tick range chart. The lines I use are 8/8 for the bottom of resistance, and +1/8 for the top of resistance, 0/8 for the top of support, and -1/8 for the bottom of support. Also note 4/8, the midpoint.

When price action comes up from -1/8 and crosses 0/8 to the upside, if that candle closes above the 0/8 (top of support) line, I go long at that point, placing my stop 1 tick below the -1/8 line (bottom of support). If I'm trading 2 contracts, I take 1 contract off when price action crosses the 4/8 midpoint, and move my stop to break-even +2 ticks. At that point, the trade is no-loss. When price action crosses the bottom of resistance (8/8 line), I close out the trade.

I use the same setup for shorts, except using the bottom of resistance for the entry and top of support for the exit. These rules allow me to know precisely where the entry, stop, and exit for the trade is.

Hope this helps.

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  #19 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Busan
 
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Posts: 7 since Feb 2010
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srgtroy View Post
@tturner86 and I have discussed this concept in the past, and we refer to it as the George Costanza method, from the Sienfeld episode where George realizes everything he does is wrong and so he does the exact opposite.



To that effect, the best way to trade this method is to simply create an 'inverse' price chart and trade it.

Let us know how it goes...

p.s. -- the interesting thing is that theoretically, if you start to realize you are consistently losing with this method, then just flip the chart back to normal

That idea where you flip back and forth sure it's right, there is definitely a cycle in my own psychology from euphoria with a large winning day, then small winning day, small losing day, then another small losing day, then large losing day to despair and finally despondency and shutdown where your sympathetic nervous system possibly gets over-stimulated, your body and psychology regulate, and then you're good to go for the next winning day and repeat the cycle again.

So possibly the skill in trading above all is just to identify when those losing days are starting to come in, and just leave a smokin' trail of dust in your wake as you get out those markets, take refuge in your demo, shake up charts do what you have to do, and reset so you just skip the big losing days.

This seems more relevant to my trading behavior than any indicator anyway, all good stuff thanks people for just existing and inputting, best,

Jeremy

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  #20 (permalink)
Elite Member
knoxville tennessee usa
 
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murrey math



n7ekg View Post
I use Murrey Math lines on a 4-tick range chart. The lines I use are 8/8 for the bottom of resistance, and +1/8 for the top of resistance, 0/8 for the top of support, and -1/8 for the bottom of support. Also note 4/8, the midpoint.

When price action comes up from -1/8 and crosses 0/8 to the upside, if that candle closes above the 0/8 (top of support) line, I go long at that point, placing my stop 1 tick below the -1/8 line (bottom of support). If I'm trading 2 contracts, I take 1 contract off when price action crosses the 4/8 midpoint, and move my stop to break-even +2 ticks. At that point, the trade is no-loss. When price action crosses the bottom of resistance (8/8 line), I close out the trade.

I use the same setup for shorts, except using the bottom of resistance for the entry and top of support for the exit. These rules allow me to know precisely where the entry, stop, and exit for the trade is.

Hope this helps.

do you have a murrey math indicator drawing the lines, are you trading just of the lines or using something else for directional bias and trading conditions ... like do you take the trades of the open or filtering with a moving average or ossilator or higher time frame murrey math lines...thanks for your input

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