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[ES account size] How realistic... ?
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[ES account size] How realistic... ?

  #21 (permalink)
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To the OP. Very realistic.

But why trade the ES? I cannot understand the fascination with the ES. I get it that a lot of people on this board trade it, but it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade.

Trade the NQ with a smaller point size, but bigger overall daily range ( most days ).

Learn futures on the NQ and then add contracts if you are successful and your win rate is high.

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  #22 (permalink)
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Hickock View Post
To the OP. Very realistic.

But why trade the ES? I cannot understand the fascination with the ES. I get it that a lot of people on this board trade it, but it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade.

Trade the NQ with a smaller point size, but bigger overall daily range ( most days ).

Learn futures on the NQ and then add contracts if you are successful and your win rate is high.

Please elaborate as to why one would not want to trade the most heavily traded futures contract in the world? Is it because it's the most liquid, has virtually zero slippage and no spreads or maybe something like the fact that it respects price levels with damn near to the tick precision while affording one time to assess and get a trade on before it makes its beautiful trend up or down to the next level?

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  #23 (permalink)
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Inletcap View Post
Please elaborate as to why one would not want to trade the most heavily traded futures contract in the world? Is it because it's the most liquid, has virtually zero slippage and no spreads or maybe something like the fact that it respects price levels with damn near to the tick precision while affording one time to assess and get a trade on before it makes its beautiful trend up or down to the next level?

One word. Movement.

While the ES was trading in a tight range the last week, the NQ was making several quick clean moves for 15 points or more. And the trade resolves it's self much faster.

Getting slipped a tick on the NQ is hardly the end of the world if you know what you are doing. It respects levels a lot better than the ES as a matter of fact.

Your risk to reward is better on the NQ. More movement = better chance of making your cash and getting out before the algos and big boys decide to walk it back to your entry.

Most newbies on the ES trade with stops that are way to tight and unrealistic. You can give a trade on the NQ more room and still stay within proper risk to reward ratios.

The list goes on and on.

But this board skews heavily towards ES traders. And that's ok. But the ES is not the end all, be all, to futures trading.

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  #24 (permalink)
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Hickock View Post
One word. Movement.

While the ES was trading in a tight range the last week, the NQ was making several quick clean moves for 15 points or more. And the trade resolves it's self much faster.

Getting slipped a tick on the NQ is hardly the end of the world if you know what you are doing. It respects levels a lot better than the ES as a matter of fact.

Your risk to reward is better on the NQ. More movement = better chance of making your cash and getting out before the algos and big boys decide to walk it back to your entry.

Most newbies on the ES trade with stops that are way to tight and unrealistic. You can give a trade on the NQ more room and still stay within proper risk to reward ratios.

The list goes on and on.

But this board skews heavily towards ES traders. And that's ok. But the ES is not the end all, be all, to futures trading.

Totally respect your opinion but would like to point out that:
A 7 point move on a Es contract puts $350 in your pocket whereas a 15 point move on Nq puts $300. It's six of one, half dozen of the other- NQ will have a larger range as its twice the point value.
Risk reward- you lost me there.. You risk dollars to make dollars. Point value makes no difference. Using the above example 7 pts risk on Es is about 15 Nq. Must be using a stop to measure risk rather than expectancy- very dangerous account killing idea.
Hard Stops - Why would anybody use these? Catastrophic stops- yes but one should learn to trade rather than rely on training wheels to take their money. Hard stops will kill an account, this is very well known. If using them anyway, there is no difference- point value of stop should be about twice because point value of the index is about twice.

Anyway- not trying to argue, I just don't want some newbie reading this to get misinformation. I have traded both markets and find them to act identical to each other. Now, if you want movement, I suggest trading CL or GC, significantly less volume so she'll give you that immediate reward

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  #25 (permalink)
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Inletcap View Post
Totally respect your opinion


I wonder if you quite appreciate how differently from "respect" the tone of your post comes across, Inletcap?

We get that you disagree with Hickock, but referring to his post as "misinformation" seemed pretty unkind to me.

When you also refer to hard stops as "training wheels" and say that they'll kill an account and that "this is very well known", almost as if it's something objective and irrefutable, people could perhaps be forgiven for wondering whose "information" is really in need of correction, here.

From my own experience, I agree with everything Hickock has said, above: I find NQ far easier to trade profitably than ES, myself, for exactly the reasons he mentions.

I don't want it to sound like a complaint or a criticism at all, and it absolutely isn't either, but I've also noticed that there's a fairly strong bias toward ES in this forum (I suspect these things become artificially self-perpetuating, to some extent, simply because ES traders tend gradually to accumulate where the ES discussions are). But there also some NQ traders here, and some of us have opinions, too, which we quite like to be able to express without having them dismissed as "misinformation".

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  #26 (permalink)
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@Tymbeline

Thanks for your reply and being much more diplomatic than I could ever be.

I think that some people may be repeating "wisdom" they have heard from some larger than life personalities on this board.

Hard stops are there for a reason. That is the point where your signal/idea has failed. Any extra room at that point is juist inviting a bigger loss and creating bad habits.

Good trading!

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  #27 (permalink)
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Tymbeline View Post
I wonder if you quite appreciate how differently from "respect" the tone of your post comes across, Inletcap?

We get that you disagree with Hickock, but referring to his post as "misinformation" seemed pretty unkind to me.

When you also refer to hard stops as "training wheels" and say that they'll kill an account and that "this is very well known", almost as if it's something objective and irrefutable, people could perhaps be forgiven for wondering whose "information" is really in need of correction, here.

From my own experience, I agree with everything Hickock has said, above: I find NQ far easier to trade profitably than ES, myself, for exactly the reasons he mentions.

I don't want it to sound like a complaint or a criticism at all, and it absolutely isn't either, but I've also noticed that there's a fairly strong bias toward ES in this forum (I suspect these things become artificially self-perpetuating, to some extent, simply because ES traders tend gradually to accumulate where the ES discussions are). But there also some NQ traders here, and some of us have opinions, too, which we quite like to be able to express without having them dismissed as "misinformation".

Of course everyone should express their opinion as that's what FIO is all about! The tone of my reply was not meant to be demeaning at all, just factual. If I were a newbie trader and stumbled across this post that basically says NQ is easier to trade, has better risk reward and I make more money, I may actually believe that. Truth is every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify. When one places too much emphasis on a chart, any market is difficult to trade and unfortunately too many books have been written polluting the minds of traders to place hard stops so that they can control thier risk based on chart/bar patterns.

I am not always the best at choosing the right words to get my message across but I would tend to think most believe I am here to help others. I did not mean to offend anyone and appreciated the debate as referenced by thanking the posters comments. I did not receive the same so obviously either my opinion or my delivery did not sit well. Happy trading to all.

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  #28 (permalink)
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Inletcap View Post
If I were a newbie trader and stumbled across this post that basically says NQ is easier to trade, has better risk reward and I make more money, I may actually believe that.


I hear you of course (and by the way I've learned quite a bit from your posts, here, myself), and thank you for such a tactful reply.

It depends what you mean by "believe", I suppose. I believe that NQ is easier for Hickock to trade, has better R:R for him and that he makes more money. I believe all those things of myself, too. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll also be true for a newbie reading such posts, of course. But it also doesn't mean the opposite?

We agree, of course, that every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify.

Comments about hard stops in books aren't "pollution", from my perspective: learning to use them was among the things that eventually turned me from overall loss into overall profit. Sorry - not what you wanted to hear!

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  #29 (permalink)
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Tymbeline View Post
I hear you of course (and by the way I've learned quite a bit from your posts, here, myself), and thank you for such a tactful reply.

It depends what you mean by "believe", I suppose. I believe that NQ is easier for Hickock to trade, has better R:R for him and that he makes more money. I believe all those things of myself, too. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll also be true for a newbie reading such posts, of course. But it also doesn't mean the opposite?

We agree, of course, that every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify.

Comments about hard stops in books aren't "pollution", from my perspective: learning to use them was among the things that eventually turned me from overall loss into overall profit. Sorry - not what you wanted to hear!

"Believe" exactly- I believe that some folks find it better for them but saying "it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade." is not saying " I find it easier to trade". You have hit the nail on the head!! A lot of guys find value using stops but so many get constantly stopped as they use them to control trade risk vs account risk while trading signal to signal without context- subject for another day in another forum...

Anyway- best of trading to all today

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  #30 (permalink)
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IzhakHaim View Post
"many days we take the range for 20+"

And you still have time to post here??? With 20+ points a day, you can buy half of Myrtle Beach. Posting trades on a web site may be taken with a ton of salt. Hundreds of "Guru traders" post similar results but need to sell their signals for $99 a month. If you are able to take out from the market 20+ES points a day, where should we send the check to and share profits? A new trader that see your post may get the idea of open an account with $1000, trade 1 contract ($500 intraday margin), follow your entry/exit posts, make 20 points a day($1000) and so will be able to DOUBLE his money every day. Please. We may be born at night, but not last night. Good luck.

I encourage folks to trade with context and shoot for the avg daily range vs. scalping signal to signal. This is not a far-fetched idea as you allude and many have embraced the concept with great success. My successes and failures are posted for all to see daily in real time so in no way am I implying guru status. If I were always right, I would have been done trading a long time ago and sipping cocktails on my mega yacht named eMini . As for having time to post, that happens when you are not starring at your screen and grinding out every tick; Speaking of time, this is my last comment as I do not wish to validate your posts any further.

Best of luck to you buddy!

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