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alternatives to cme products with their obscene commissions?
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alternatives to cme products with their obscene commissions?

  #1 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
méxico df, méxico
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader, tradestation
Broker/Data: demo so far
Favorite Futures: stocks, fdax, fdxm, fesx, rb, ho, ng, cl, tf, nq, bp, ec, jy
 
Posts: 46 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 115 given, 21 received

alternatives to cme products with their obscene commissions?

hello everyone.


i have been doing some research on index futures contracts other than the most traditional cme products with their obscene commissions structure. i have learned there exist a number of very attractive alternatives to cme products like the fdax, the fdxm (i undertand both trade in eurex), as well as asian indices mini futures contracts like those of the nikkei, hang seng and kospi indices (jnm ose, nke ose, hsi hkfe, kospi200? krx).


i would want to know which brokerages associated with ninjatrader let clients trade these futures contracts (as well as any other futures contracts i may have left out of that list), and the costs associated with these products like data fees, commissions and so on. also, if I wanted to find the information for daily depth of market / liquidity, margin costs, average spreads, average volatility / range (atr) and available brokerages / platforms for as many indices futures contracts in the world as was possible to carry out an exhaustive, in depth comparison, where could I find this data?


thanks in advance, regards.

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  #2 (permalink)
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  #3 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
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Not sure many people would consider a $1.14 commission on a $108k ES contract obscene but your right DAX is cheaper (€0.50) and their contract is bigger (€253k).

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  #4 (permalink)
Elite Member
Slovakia
 
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maggtrading View Post
hello everyone.


i have been doing some research on index futures contracts other than the most traditional cme products with their obscene commissions structure. i have learned there exist a number of very attractive alternatives to cme products like the fdax, the fdxm (i undertand both trade in eurex), as well as asian indices mini futures contracts like those of the nikkei, hang seng and kospi indices (jnm ose, nke ose, hsi hkfe, kospi200? krx).


i would want to know which brokerages associated with ninjatrader let clients trade these futures contracts (as well as any other futures contracts i may have left out of that list), and the costs associated with these products like data fees, commissions and so on. also, if I wanted to find the information for daily depth of market / liquidity, margin costs, average spreads, average volatility / range (atr) and available brokerages / platforms for as many indices futures contracts in the world as was possible to carry out an exhaustive, in depth comparison, where could I find this data?


thanks in advance, regards.

INTERACTIVEBROKERS

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  #5 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
méxico df, méxico
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader, tradestation
Broker/Data: demo so far
Favorite Futures: stocks, fdax, fdxm, fesx, rb, ho, ng, cl, tf, nq, bp, ec, jy
 
Posts: 46 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 115 given, 21 received


SMCJB View Post
Not sure many people would consider a $1.14 commission on a $108k ES contract obscene but your right DAX is cheaper (€0.50) and their contract is bigger (€253k).



well, for the most heavily traded cme products (es, nq) total commissions of $5 usd per round trip used to be common. i understand cme still has even more expensive products (usd denominated nikkei and others). compare that to the commissions paid if trading the most expensive stock i know of: the brk.a, if i'm not mistaken, it now has a tick size of 1c, and even in the worst case scenario, total commissions for a round trip trade would never be greater than 50c per share. for me, really anything above 10c in total commissions for cme products would be unjustifiable, that's why i am looking for better alternatives elsewhere.


@Obelixtrader , thanks. i will write an email to interactive brokers to learn what european / asian futures contracts they have available.

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  #6 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Hamburg Germany
 
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maggtrading,

I might be wrong here and it depends on the volume you make of course, but you will likely end up paying somewhere between $4 and $5 per roundtrip on almost every futures trade (round turn; for the common products and with regular fees and commissions i.e. not being a member or leasing a seat). The CME or any other exchange for that matter don't charge that amount in total, it usually consists of your broker's fee, the exchange and clearing fees.

@mattz can surely offer more sound information on that matter.

Regards,

ABCTG


maggtrading View Post
well, for the most heavily traded cme products (es, nq) total commissions of $5 usd per round trip used to be common. i understand cme still has even more expensive products (usd denominated nikkei and others). compare that to the commissions paid if trading the most expensive stock i know of: the brk.a, if i'm not mistaken, it now has a tick size of 1c, and even in the worst case scenario, total commissions for a round trip trade would never be greater than 50c per share. for me, really anything above 10c in total commissions for cme products would be unjustifiable, that's why i am looking for better alternatives elsewhere.


@Obelixtrader , thanks. i will write an email to interactive brokers to learn what european / asian futures contracts they have available.


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  #7 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
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Platform: Variety
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ABCTG View Post
maggtrading,

I might be wrong here and it depends on the volume you make of course, but you will likely end up paying somewhere between $4 and $5 per roundtrip on almost every futures trade (round turn; for the common products and with regular fees and commissions i.e. not being a member or leasing a seat). The CME or any other exchange for that matter don't charge that amount in total, it usually consists of your broker's fee, the exchange and clearing fees.

@mattz can surely offer more sound information on that matter.

Regards,

ABCTG

@ABCTG You are 100% right in terms of your pricing as far as the range on ES and NQ as total pricing, all in,
No one get 10 cents commissions unless they are really heavy traders and their average win may be less than a tick on a given instrument. Also, these kind of pricing also accompanied by lower CME fees due to memberships, etc.

I still find that many do not know the exact commission they pay. Namely, they do not know the commissions part, routing, exchange, etc. The components are important because they allow you to choose the platform accordingly and the broker.

Thanks,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

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  #8 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
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I think he's arguing for 10c in "total commissions" ie including exchange fees .... not clearing!

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  #9 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 2,042 since Sep 2010
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SMCJB View Post
I think he's arguing for 10c in "total commissions" ie including exchange fees .... not clearing!

Then I suggest that he/she looks at the CME rates on ES under membership and no membership...just to realize that the exchange that takes at times up to 400% or more than the broker in the overall rate.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #10 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
méxico df, méxico
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader, tradestation
Broker/Data: demo so far
Favorite Futures: stocks, fdax, fdxm, fesx, rb, ho, ng, cl, tf, nq, bp, ec, jy
 
Posts: 46 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 115 given, 21 received


well, thanks everyone for your participation.


i do know that the total commissions a retail trader pays are determined by what the exchange, the broker, and other institutions take.


still, the point i make is that futures contracts commissions are ridiculously high, and cme's are the worst of all. there's no justification for making retail traders pay anything above 10c round trip per trade; keep in mind that to the exchange and the brokers futures contracts trades are nothing but binary values changing back and forth in their databases, they have zero variable costs per trade. the fact of the matter is that right now futures exchanges get away with the kind of commissions structures they have in place simply because they have monopolistic power as there exists virtually no competition. for example, in méxico, there still are local equities brokers who will charge retail investors commissions of 1% of the value of their trade every time, no matter what. in the usa, back in the day, commissions and everything else were also far worse for all instruments. exchanges used to have 25c increments so investors had huge slippage going against them every time and commissions also used to be excessive until competition and regulation reined in the abuse at least when it comes to equities.

i want to do what i can to oppose the abusive practices of cme myself, and trading exclusively other exchanges' products seems to me to be an excellent strategy. from the research i have done, total commissions for the fdxm and other eurex products can be between 3 and 4 usd, which is between 1 and a full 2 usd lower than comparable cme mini products. 2 usd per round trip over a number of trades a day and over multiple contracts adds up to a lot of money over time, and as i argued there's really no justification to hand over a premium to cme and associated brokers when they would still be making a killing even at 5c per contract for each of them.


i still haven't been able to find the commissions and conditions for futures contracts for the jnm ose, nke ose, hsi hkfe and kospi krx, but i will definitely look into those options too, and wouldn't be surprised in the least if costs and commissions were also significantly lower compared to cme's products.

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