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200 ticks per month ES, NQ, YM
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200 ticks per month ES, NQ, YM

  #21 (permalink)
Market Wizard
 
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tradethetick View Post
I didn't know that about him. But what he says resonates about the lack of transparency in the trading community. So many traders relate golf to trading yet we never take someone's word for their golf game until we see them play. Scorecards work wonders in golf. They would work wonders for trading too.

Fair enough (hate him grrrrr. haha) but does the point that its not a sporting game and nothing like a golf competition not makes sense?

TST have a little friendly competition thing going on but it is not a "game" for self-funded traders who are not under that prop-shop umbrella. Futures unlike stocks is a "zero-sum-game: In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s)."

People regardless of social engineering since the 1950s are still somewhat altruistic and we share information, us against the banks/HFTs etc, for reasons of community feeling and self-interest etc.

Even if you get one person's statements, you need many to prove anything I fear. Anyway, I hope you get the proof you need and if not, prosper in you life outside of trading.

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  #22 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago, Illinois
 
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tradethetick View Post
Is there anyone that makes 200 ticks per month, just about every month trading ES and/or NQ and/or YM?

I have never met anyone that is doing that and I would like to SEE that it is possible...in reality.

Anyone?

What kind of time frame are we talking about? In volatile times like we are currently experiencing, it's not difficult at all to hit 200 ticks per month on ES. But really, your question is almost useless as a metric, which is probably why people aren't answering you. An amateur has nothing to show you, and a pro thinks it's none of your fucking business and you have better things to be worrying about. I'll explain that below.

Problems with your metric: First, your yardstick is different for each instrument. 200 ticks is a bigger accomplishment in ES than it is in YM or NQ. ES is a bigger tick and deeper contract which moves less ticks than the others. Also, does this include commission? You can hit 10 ticks in 1 trade or 10. In one scenario you probably didn't actually make any money. The commission factor also changes by trader. You'll pay more per roundturn - a lot more - than a guy who trades thousands of roundturns and has a seat, and he is also sitting in an office at the exchange with a data feed that costs more per month than your car payment, and that's if you have a nice car. His results will be different than yours with the same techniques.

Further, being a good trader isn't necessarily so easily reduced to, "did you make X ticks a month/day/year?" If someone will lift their skirt and show you their trading, it's better to pay attention to win/loss ratio, win rate, maximum adverse excursion (are they taking tons of heat in their trades?), Sharpe ratio, etc. Profitability over time would be clear from their profit curve, which they should also have record of. If they're a fraud, those stats will expose them. Your question will not.

Coincidentally, that is what I recommend to people to concentrate on in their own trading. If you win 60% of the time, your losses are twice as big as your winners, and you're not holding forever or averaging in, you will be just fine over time. Go find a profit curve simulator and plug those numbers in to see what I mean.

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  #23 (permalink)
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tradethetick View Post
Anyone willing to step forward yet?

OK, I just read the rest of the thread. I thought you were talking about evaluating vendors. Here's a question you should ask yourself:

Who in the hell do you think you are to stand here and demand that I, or anyone else, disclose extremely personal information because of an opinion we posted on the internet?

Seriously, why would I give a flying fuck whether you believe something that I posted on here? Especially when it's pretty clear you don't know anything about trading yet. Here's a tip - evaluate whatever advice you receive based on what is contained within. When I was trading for a shop, I knew a guy who worked for a hedge fund in an administrative role. We're talking guys who each had 100MM in backing or more, glittering ivy league resumes, etc. I asked him what he had learned working for these guys. What made them special? His answer floored me:

"What have I learned? I learned that if you have enough money, you can get away with anything. They're no better than the average trader in a shop, they can just hold it until it comes back."

The moral here is not to worry so much about our profit curves or whatever. You aren't a crusader for justice, you're being annoying. You should have one goal - to become a profitable trader. That's mostly a skill. There's no secret knowledge. Learn basic market analysis and work from there. Create a framework to understand what is typical and atypical. Learn to recognize trending and ranging markets, etc. That stuff is easy and out there in the public domain, but in the end it comes down to YOU, and what I or anybody else does is irrelevant to that.

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  #24 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
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tradethetick View Post
Is there anyone that makes 200 ticks per month, just about every month trading ES and/or NQ and/or YM?

I have never met anyone that is doing that and I would like to SEE that it is possible...in reality.

Anyone?

200 points a month is 10 points a day. Anybody that does this as their full time job should be able to do that. I am not sure you are going to get many of us to publish their personal financial information on a public forum plus I could just make something up and you would never be the wiser.

So to your question... can you make 200 points a month. The answer is if you know what you are doing and trade the markets that move and put in the screen time trading... you should be able to do that in a month or less but there are a vast array of factors relating to that as in what are your own personal objectives, risk tolerance, skill, position sizes etc.

I would have thought a better question would have been is can you really make a living out of doing this. The answer to that is yes but you do have to educate yourself about trading. Remember, trading is a learnt skill and you do need persistence, patience and commitment to succeed.

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  #25 (permalink)
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bbgg91 View Post
200 points a month is 10 points a day. Anybody that does this as their full time job should be able to do that. I am not sure you are going to get many of us to publish their personal financial information on a public forum plus I could just make something up and you would never be the wiser.



So to your question... can you make 200 points a month. The answer is if you know what you are doing and trade the markets that move and put in the screen time trading... you should be able to do that in a month or less but there are a vast array of factors relating to that as in what are your own personal objectives, risk tolerance, skill, position sizes etc.



I would have thought a better question would have been is can you really make a living out of doing this. The answer to that is yes but you do have to educate yourself about trading. Remember, trading is a learnt skill and you do need persistence, patience and commitment to succeed.


Good post and I agree with all you said.

Just one thing ... He is asking if making 200 "ticks" on ES can be done in a month every month. Of course the answer is yes. I have not done so I'm currently in a drawdown and stop placing orders for almost a year now as I work on many other parts of this business that need my attention mainly myself. But I know it can be done have meet people in person that do it, as you have said 200 "points".

Want to say something to @tradethetick. As I see it the fact that you are so adamant about seeing proof it can be done tells me you don't believe it can be. And if you don't believe it can be done it can't for you. It's that simple.
Quoting 
As Van Tharp says.... "You don't trade the market, you trade your beliefs about the market."

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It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
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  #26 (permalink)
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Do you

really think you are the first with this question here on FIO?

Answer is NO. There are many threads with similar questions.
Basically the forum is to discuss own trading - how to make bucks and how to avoid bigger losses,
how to overcome fear to push the button and learning about one's weaknesses. It is all about a learning
process.

You can find 2 categories of journals here:
1) Journals that offer insight in trade setups. With some charts after the trade(s) and eventually a sheet
with the results.
2) Journals that offer good moments to take a trade and announcing them before taking the trade
with entry, direction, exit and stop loss. As time passes the results are typed into the post. Finally you
get a result that was made with that trade in real time.
It is up to every journal writer on how much he would like to reveal.
You can get nearly all free :-)

But you need to find those and follow them to see if things posted here are real. And yes - that is work too!

GFIs1

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  #27 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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tradethetick View Post
So many people make similar claims about how much money they are making in the ES, CL, etc. but I have never seen any proof. Nobody. It's amazing. You can watch videos of professional golfers, see scorecards, watch in slow motion. But not with trading.

Only words...

I have to agree with @SoftSoap. What is the incentive for anyone who might be profitable to share with you his/her own results?

The only incentive I can think of is if they are selling you something.

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  #28 (permalink)
Elite Member
Irvine, CA
 
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ValueFocused View Post
What kind of time frame are we talking about? In volatile times like we are currently experiencing, it's not difficult at all to hit 200 ticks per month on ES. But really, your question is almost useless as a metric, which is probably why people aren't answering you. An amateur has nothing to show you, and a pro thinks it's none of your fucking business and you have better things to be worrying about. I'll explain that below.

Problems with your metric: First, your yardstick is different for each instrument. 200 ticks is a bigger accomplishment in ES than it is in YM or NQ. ES is a bigger tick and deeper contract which moves less ticks than the others. Also, does this include commission? You can hit 10 ticks in 1 trade or 10. In one scenario you probably didn't actually make any money. The commission factor also changes by trader. You'll pay more per roundturn - a lot more - than a guy who trades thousands of roundturns and has a seat, and he is also sitting in an office at the exchange with a data feed that costs more per month than your car payment, and that's if you have a nice car. His results will be different than yours with the same techniques.

Further, being a good trader isn't necessarily so easily reduced to, "did you make X ticks a month/day/year?" If someone will lift their skirt and show you their trading, it's better to pay attention to win/loss ratio, win rate, maximum adverse excursion (are they taking tons of heat in their trades?), Sharpe ratio, etc. Profitability over time would be clear from their profit curve, which they should also have record of. If they're a fraud, those stats will expose them. Your question will not.

Coincidentally, that is what I recommend to people to concentrate on in their own trading. If you win 60% of the time, your losses are twice as big as your winners, and you're not holding forever or averaging in, you will be just fine over time. Go find a profit curve simulator and plug those numbers in to see what I mean.

I am just looking for someone (actually it should be at least 50 traders) who is making 200+ ticks per month daytrading. Preferably the ES or CL. I just want to see if it is being done. No one in 10 years has shown me or anyone else that I can find, that they are making 200+ ticks per month, on average, for a year, 2 years, etc. I don;t want to know how they do it. I would just like to see that some traders are doing it.

I am still waiting though...

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  #29 (permalink)
Elite Member
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ValueFocused View Post
OK, I just read the rest of the thread. I thought you were talking about evaluating vendors. Here's a question you should ask yourself:

Who in the hell do you think you are to stand here and demand that I, or anyone else, disclose extremely personal information because of an opinion we posted on the internet?

Seriously, why would I give a flying fuck whether you believe something that I posted on here? Especially when it's pretty clear you don't know anything about trading yet. Here's a tip - evaluate whatever advice you receive based on what is contained within. When I was trading for a shop, I knew a guy who worked for a hedge fund in an administrative role. We're talking guys who each had 100MM in backing or more, glittering ivy league resumes, etc. I asked him what he had learned working for these guys. What made them special? His answer floored me:

"What have I learned? I learned that if you have enough money, you can get away with anything. They're no better than the average trader in a shop, they can just hold it until it comes back."

The moral here is not to worry so much about our profit curves or whatever. You aren't a crusader for justice, you're being annoying. You should have one goal - to become a profitable trader. That's mostly a skill. There's no secret knowledge. Learn basic market analysis and work from there. Create a framework to understand what is typical and atypical. Learn to recognize trending and ranging markets, etc. That stuff is easy and out there in the public domain, but in the end it comes down to YOU, and what I or anybody else does is irrelevant to that.

I would be happy seeing any trader making 200+ ticks per month, on average, every month, vendor or not. I have not seen anyone show me or anyone else that. I am not demanding it. More curious why no one is doing it. I would think that ego alone would have plastered proof all over the internet. Instead people get defensive, come up with excuses, say that it's looking at the wrong thing, cuss... Can you imagine a golfer, after you ask him or her for their scorecard, getting upset. Calling you f-bombs, telling you that is not about their game but your game? Definitely not professionals. In fact as soon as someone has a great game, they are showing everyone the scorecard. Posting it up all around the club. Sharing it on social media. But trading...crickets.

Not what I thought would happen. I thought I would have 10 or more traders stepping up and bragging about how good they are. But when proof is asked for...nothing.

We'll see...

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  #30 (permalink)
Elite Member
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bbgg91 View Post
200 points a month is 10 points a day. Anybody that does this as their full time job should be able to do that. I am not sure you are going to get many of us to publish their personal financial information on a public forum plus I could just make something up and you would never be the wiser.

So to your question... can you make 200 points a month. The answer is if you know what you are doing and trade the markets that move and put in the screen time trading... you should be able to do that in a month or less but there are a vast array of factors relating to that as in what are your own personal objectives, risk tolerance, skill, position sizes etc.

I would have thought a better question would have been is can you really make a living out of doing this. The answer to that is yes but you do have to educate yourself about trading. Remember, trading is a learnt skill and you do need persistence, patience and commitment to succeed.

Sorry. 200+ ticks per month in CL or ES.

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