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Newbie ES Trading Log for Review
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Newbie ES Trading Log for Review

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Calgary, Alberta
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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sledmt View Post
From your perspective, for someone starting out in trading, would doing e-micro for several months be good to remove some of the trader psychology?

Sledmt,

I have never traded the e-micro so I don't know about the liquidity, price action, slippage, speed, fills etc. If you need to learn some fundementals like entry, exit, stop placement, trailing stops etc, then they may be some help to you.

However, if you eventually want to make the move to the e-mini markets, the language (of whatever market you choose) will be totally different to the e-micro.

In my humble view, I would take the time to trade the market you want to eventually end up trading. For me, I started on the ES but in unison I also traded the emini bonds. I felt I had a good fit with the bonds in the beginning as it was a slower market.

Just don't believe for one second you can transition from paper to real money with little change to your progress. It isn't that easy. You see many traders on this forum come, go and never return. Now, that may be because they were successful and don't need this forum anymore, however I predict in 90% of the cases they didn't make it and just gave up citing that trading was only ever ahobby.

Honestly, I could write a book on what I went through as a trader in the beginning. I am sure many of us could. If you have the time and money to learn over a 12 month period, then please do so. Live, breath and read on the market you are interested.

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  #12 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Kalispell montana
 
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JonnyBoy View Post
Sledmt,

I have never traded the e-micro so I don't know about the liquidity, price action, slippage, speed, fills etc. If you need to learn some fundementals like entry, exit, stop placement, trailing stops etc, then they may be some help to you.

However, if you eventually want to make the move to the e-mini markets, the language (of whatever market you choose) will be totally different to the e-micro.

In my humble view, I would take the time to trade the market you want to eventually end up trading. For me, I started on the ES but in unison I also traded the emini bonds. I felt I had a good fit with the bonds in the beginning as it was a slower market.

Just don't believe for one second you can transition from paper to real money with little change to your progress. It isn't that easy. You see many traders on this forum come, go and never return. Now, that may be because they were successful and don't need this forum anymore, however I predict in 90% of the cases they didn't make it and just gave up citing that trading was only ever ahobby.

Honestly, I could write a book on what I went through as a trader in the beginning. I am sure many of us could. If you have the time and money to learn over a 12 month period, then please do so. Live, breath and read on the market you are interested.

Thanks JonnyBoy for your wisdom. Your words gave me some things to consider and ponder. Was pondering the following: personally I snowmobile for a hobby. This snowmobile hobby has never produced a money return. Never got into it for that reason. On the same token, would it be a good thing to do for trading. Take the first 6 or 12 months of learning to trade, and treat it as a hobby. The purpose is not to make money, but to learn the "trade" and how to play the game.

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  #13 (permalink)
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Cleveland Ohio/United States
 
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sledmt View Post
Take the first 6 or 12 months of learning to trade, and treat it as a hobby. The purpose is not to make money, but to learn the "trade" and how to play the game.

I agree with everything you say, except "treat it as a hobby." During your learning phase, treat it instead as a deadly serious business, because that is what it is. Hobby folks get eaten alive on a daily basis.

Take it slow, just like you propose, and eventually you'll be way ahead of the pack!

Good Luck!

If you have any questions please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
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  #14 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Kalispell montana
 
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kevinkdog View Post
I agree with everything you say, except "treat it as a hobby." During your learning phase, treat it instead as a deadly serious business, because that is what it is. Hobby folks get eaten alive on a daily basis.

Take it slow, just like you propose, and eventually you'll be way ahead of the pack!

Good Luck!

Ultimately I am pursing this as a business. So I agree, that things (trades) need to be conducted in a serious manner. I was wondering, does the mental mindset change to something more trade destructive when someone is too concerned with possible losses. I am making the assumption that someone that is treating trading like it is a serious business during the start of a trading career would have issues with trading psychology.

Could you give a example of "hobby folks being eating alive".

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  #15 (permalink)
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sledmt View Post
Ultimately I am pursing this as a business. So I agree, that things (trades) need to be conducted in a serious manner. I was wondering, does the mental mindset change to something more trade destructive when someone is too concerned with possible losses. I am making the assumption that someone that is treating trading like it is a serious business during the start of a trading career would have issues with trading psychology.

Could you give a example of "hobby folks being eating alive".


Most retail players are part time / hobby type people. Most of them lose money.

This is 2011, but it is the easiest one I could find (maybe someone could post a link to more recent data). It says only 20-30% of retail forex accounts made one in one particular quarter (futures is likely very similar). I am sure the profitability over 1 year, 2 years or 5 years is even lower:

US Forex brokers profitability report for Q3 2011 | OANDA back on top, profitability up | Forex Magnates

By taking it slow, you are doing the right thing. Too many incorrectly think "I can easily open an account, therefore it must be easy to trade."

If you have any questions please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
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  #16 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Sydney
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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My question is simple.

Why do you want to change professions and day trade? Why not become a plumber, or an accountant, or a brain surgeon or a professional golfer? You have to look deep inside you to work out whats driving you. If its simply because of the money, you'll end up losing the lot. If its because you love the markets, love learning and love self improvement, you are in with a chance. Are you the sort of person who loves reading about the market on the weekend, or does it seem like a chore? What are you doing to do when you blow through your first $20k?

I'm not here to discourage you, but on your current path you won't be here in 6 months. Trading is mostly psychological coupled with not losing money. Your current P&L swings don't seem too bad for a $100,000 account, but of a $10,000 account the fear and terror of losing 10% of your money in one day is going to paralyze you.

There is a lot to learn. Start learning about yourself - now - and you will survive.

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  #17 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Kalispell montana
 
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kevinkdog View Post
Most retail players are part time / hobby type people. Most of them lose money.

This is 2011, but it is the easiest one I could find (maybe someone could post a link to more recent data). It says only 20-30% of retail forex accounts made one in one particular quarter (futures is likely very similar). I am sure the profitability over 1 year, 2 years or 5 years is even lower:

US Forex brokers profitability report for Q3 2011 | OANDA back on top, profitability up | Forex Magnates

By taking it slow, you are doing the right thing. Too many incorrectly think "I can easily open an account, therefore it must be easy to trade."

Thanks for the link. I will take a look at that.

Would the following be a good definition of what you are talking about: someone that is taking trading serious is not concerned with the fast buck, but defining a trading strategy and sticking to it and not allowing emotions to do the trading. Learning your exit, entry strategies and following them.

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  #18 (permalink)
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sledmt View Post
Thanks for the link. I will take a look at that.

Would the following be a good definition of what you are talking about: someone that is taking trading serious is not concerned with the fast buck, but defining a trading strategy and sticking to it and not allowing emotions to do the trading. Learning your exit, entry strategies and following them.

That is pretty good. The big problem I see over and over is that people have a strategy, but not necessarily one that makes money. Part of being a serious trader is being able to develop and evaluate a strategy so that you are reasonably certain you have something that can make money. That will give you a lot of confidence for when things go bad, which will happen at times.

Most people who fail have dollar signs in their eyes, trade a strategy that is a loser, and jump from method to method as soon as adversity hits.

If you have any questions please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
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  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
Mesa, AZ
 
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jamjacson View Post
My question is simple.

Why do you want to change professions and day trade?

I have considered several other jobs and day trading currently has the most appeal to me. I don't want another job where I trade my time for money, or where I need a degree or certification to just to get an entry level position. I already know what drives me, and I'm comfortable in my own skin.

I may not love it (yet), but I've always been interested in the stock markets and how they work. I just haven't dedicated any time to learning about it. Now, I want to make that time. I've always been a self directed learner, and I like to read, so this shouldn't be a problem for me. So far, none of the learning I've done so far hasn't been a chore, it's been very interesting.

I've always been a bit different, being an introvert. I don't have strong emotional reactions like most people, and I think I'll be fine with the phycological part of this.

I'm looking to make a modest living, not win the lottery. So, let me ask a question in return. How smart and studied does a day trader have to be to average $200 a day? You may not believe it, but that is all I need to live the lifestyle I have.

Have a CAVU day!

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  #20 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Sydney
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ES
 
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bcabebe View Post
I have considered several other jobs and day trading currently has the most appeal to me. I don't want another job where I trade my time for money, or where I need a degree or certification to just to get an entry level position. I already know what drives me, and I'm comfortable in my own skin.

I may not love it (yet), but I've always been interested in the stock markets and how they work. I just haven't dedicated any time to learning about it. Now, I want to make that time. I've always been a self directed learner, and I like to read, so this shouldn't be a problem for me. So far, none of the learning I've done so far hasn't been a chore, it's been very interesting.

I've always been a bit different, being an introvert. I don't have strong emotional reactions like most people, and I think I'll be fine with the phycological part of this.

I'm looking to make a modest living, not win the lottery. So, let me ask a question in return. How smart and studied does a day trader have to be to average $200 a day? You may not believe it, but that is all I need to live the lifestyle I have.

Have a CAVU day!

I guess I'd figure it this way. You're going to get an education and pay for it, just when you get that from the market its a different sort of education. Its great you find it interesting, that is one thing that will help you drive to reach your goal.

Being an introvert or extrovert isn't going to impact your trading. Your ability to handle crushing emotional pain day after day is the psychological issues you have to confront. How well do you deal with change? How disciplined are you? How driven and how much self awareness. Thats what your looking for. How well do you deal with stress?

You don't have to be smart or studied at all to $200 per day. There are plenty of traders with average intelligence who can make that sort of money. HOWEVER, the answer to also heavily depends on how much capital you have. If you've got a $1million, then $200 per day (or about $56,000 per year assuming you trade every day and there are 28 trading days) earns a nice 5%. That should be doable. If you have a $20,000 trading account then you are making 280% on your money. Thats a pretty impressive return. Each and every year. Year in year out. If your account is a $5,000 account, then its a return of over 1000%. I've got just over $100k in my account and I aim for $100 per day. That gives me a very healthy 25% to 30% return.

But a 1000% per annum.........

This is not to discourage you. Just to put in perspective. $200 a day isn't much in of itself. It all depends on how much capital you have.

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