Long and Short Positions at the Same Time? - Emini Index Futures Trading | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?
Updated: Views / Replies:9,962 / 39
Created: by tderrick Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors – all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you don’t need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?

  #21 (permalink)
Market Wizard
virginia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Favorite Futures: ES
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,218 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 628 given, 6,316 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


traderwerks View Post
The wash sale rule ( 534 ) is designed to stop people from doing 'bad' things. It is also prohibited by the Commodity Exchange Act.

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

...

There is no need to explain why (plenty of threads here and other sites debate on its merit). bottom line, its my money I should be able to buy and sell as I please.

Reply With Quote
 
  #22 (permalink)
TonyL
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 48 received


cory View Post
There is no need to explain why (plenty of threads here and other sites debate on its merit). bottom line, its my money I should be able to buy and sell as I please.

Ditto! Besides, if you trade in an IRA like me there's no wash sale rule in effect for this type account.

Reply With Quote
 
  #23 (permalink)
Elite Member
Nashville, Tennessee
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja / Jigsaw / 9G
Broker/Data: AMP / CQG
Favorite Futures: NQ, YM and ES
 
tderrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,589 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 4,260 given, 2,527 received



traderwerks View Post

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

.



The original premise was to, say, be in a long macro trade, but scalp the edges of consolidation ranges you
encounter along the way. Which, of course would encompass both long and short trades.

So, at some point, you would have a long contract and a short contract going at the same time.

I think I will still attempt it and see what happens


AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
Reply With Quote
 
  #24 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: XTrader
Broker/Data: Advantage Futures
Favorite Futures: Energy
 
Posts: 2,117 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 1,744 given, 3,344 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


tlopez51 View Post
Ditto! Besides, if you trade in an IRA like me there's no wash sale rule in effect for this type account.

Different type of wash sale!

Reply With Quote
 
  #25 (permalink)
TonyL
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 48 received


SMCJB View Post
Different type of wash sale!

Nice catch! There was a time I traded in both a taxable and IRA accounts and it's definitely a head scratcher.

Reply With Quote
 
  #26 (permalink)
Elite Member
San Diego, CA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: x_trader pro, Excel
Broker/Data: Advantage
Favorite Futures: CL
 
baywolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 47 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 24 given, 23 received


tderrick View Post
I can't believe I haven't run across this idea until now. It works in Market Replay, but I'm not sure
if the exchanges would allow it....

Is it possible to have an overall long or short position going, but then scalp along the way either long
OR short?

I love to trade ping pong edges in tight consolidation. However, the macro trend may still be valid.

So I guess the question is - Can you have a long contract going then short a scalp along the way,
of course with a separate contract?

How long have I been trading ?

NQ in particular ..

AMP / CQG

grazie

Wait... What the OP describes doesn't seem to match what CME's definition of wash trade is.

CME is looking to prevent traders from giving the appearance like you are really taking a bona fide position, but are not really because you are placing simultaneous hedge trades at the same price.

An example: placing an iceberg (100 contracts) limit order at 100.01 in acct A and then having a marketable order at 100.01 in acct B. This is deemed malicious because you did not take a bona fide position in the market. It might trigger people and algorithms to pull their limit orders and cause the market to move in your desired direction, where you could then enter at a more favorable price.

What the OP I think is describing is scalping an upward support and resistance price channel. He might have both a limit buy order at 99.95 and a limit sell order at 100.05, but they certainly wouldn't execute simultaneously. He is not acting maliciously.

In that case I don't see why you would need more than one account. Am I missing something?

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to baywolf for this post:
 
  #27 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: XTrader
Broker/Data: Advantage Futures
Favorite Futures: Energy
 
Posts: 2,117 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 1,744 given, 3,344 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


baywolf View Post
Wait... What the OP describes doesn't seem to match what CME's definition of wash trade is.

CME is looking to prevent traders from giving the appearance like you are really taking a bona fide position, but are not really because you are placing simultaneous hedge trades at the same price.

An example: placing an iceberg (100 contracts) limit order at 100.01 in acct A and then having a marketable order at 100.01 in acct B. This is deemed malicious because you did not take a bona fide position in the market. It might trigger people and algorithms to pull their limit orders and cause the market to move in your desired direction, where you could then enter at a more favorable price.

What the OP I think is describing is scalping an upward support and resistance price channel. He might have both a limit buy order at 99.95 and a limit sell order at 100.05, but they certainly wouldn't execute simultaneously. He is not acting maliciously.

In that case I don't see why you would need more than one account. Am I missing something?

...
SMCJB View Post
I believe there is a difference between "having" long and short positions at the same time and "entering" or "creating" long and short positions at the same time. The latter is obviously a wash trade. but the former may not be. Note that the rule you quote references "orders" and not "positions".


Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to SMCJB for this post:
 
  #28 (permalink)
Elite Member
Taiwan
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
 
Posts: 40 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 6 given, 11 received

long and short same market

Recently I've done an experiment on having both long/short position(SSO/SDS) at the same time to trade the S&P index.
Instead of going completely long or short, I just adjust the ratio of the two position to get a net exposure.

Since I always have a position on the right side(though the strategy could be in -ve territory), psychologically I feel less biased when I have to flip directions, and more importantly , I would have less tendency sticking or adding to the losing positions. Somehow our brains are being short-circuited for X amount of time whenever we have a wrong position and more so when we are completely on the wrong side, and typically that's precisely when traders make irrational decisions, especially intraday.

In terms of commission, it doesn't make much sense but I feel that the psychological advantage is worth more than the comm I paid since I am not a HFT trader.
Most traders wouldn't do this due to comm but to me, the psychological disturbances cost me a lot more than comm historically. so net net still a +.

I am very interested to explore further on whether this practice works for other traders over the long term, especially on equity index ETF. For futures, since the positions got offseted in the same account and comm are also much higher relative to ETFs. I am not sure if it's practical to do it that way.

I did a search after my thread was closed due to its duplicated content, but majority of the discussions were not focused on the psychology side of it / on ETF products.

many thanks in advance.


Last edited by ptcm; January 1st, 2014 at 06:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to ptcm for this post:
 
  #29 (permalink)
TonyL
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 48 received


ptcm View Post
Recently I've done an experiment on having both long/short position(SSO/SDS) at the same time to trade the S&P index.
Instead of going completely long or short, I just adjust the ratio of the two position to get a net exposure.

Since I always have a position on the right side(though the strategy could be in -ve territory), psychologically I feel less biased when I have to flip directions, and more importantly , I would have less tendency sticking or adding to the losing positions. Somehow our brains are being short-circuited for X amount of time whenever we have a wrong position and more so when we are completely on the wrong side, and typically that's precisely when traders make irrational decisions, especially intraday.

In terms of commission, it doesn't make much sense but I feel that the psychological advantage is worth more than the comm I paid since I am not a HFT trader.
Most traders wouldn't do this due to comm but to me, the psychological disturbances cost me a lot more than comm historically. so net net still a +.

I am very interested to explore further on whether this practice works for other traders over the long term, especially on equity index ETF. For futures, since the positions got offseted in the same account and comm are also much higher relative to ETFs. I am not sure if it's practical to do it that way.

I did a search after my thread was closed due to its duplicated content, but majority of the discussions were not focused on the psychology side of it / on ETF products.

many thanks in advance.

Instead of going completely long or short, I sometimes go with the cash settled S&P 500 index, SXPL (3x Bull) and SXPS (3x Bear), as well as the non-cash settled SSO (2x Bull) and SDS (2x Bear) leveraged ETF's. As long as your assumption is correct, the levered nature of these products will allow you to realized substantial gains in a short period of time. For a directional play I also tend to go with ES/2x NQ ratio spread.

I am not sure about the psychological effects as I try to leave all emotions out of the trading equation anyways. However, I would assume that the lesser the staying power one has or if quite frequently tend to over position size, the greater the psychological effects can play a major role which, is precisely why traders make irrational decisions to begin with.

Commissions is what you have to pay-to-play so can't see why it would even be a factor.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to tlopez51 for this post:
 
  #30 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Switzerland
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT
Broker/Data: IB / DTN
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 4,128 since Feb 2012
Thanks: 3,780 given, 7,655 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


I have some friends trading forex with a well known german broker - on ONE account -
(and yes - there are several brokers offering this possibility) having a forex position and putting
in the hedge position
of the same size in the opposite direction just to block
their "wins" or "losses" while there were no longer at the computer.
Coming back to the screen they dump the position running in the false direction.

Of course I could never understand this behaviour as the spread and commission part
was not really "HOMO Oeconomicus like"

Anyway - every trader has a different attempt

GFIs1

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to GFIs1 for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > > Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long/short same contract tpredictor Commodities Futures Trading 12 January 17th, 2014 06:05 AM
Long and Short Positions on same/different Brokerage Accounts IMN77 Reviews of Brokers and Data Feeds 8 August 13th, 2013 03:07 PM
Apple’s Retail Army, Long on Loyalty but Short on Pay Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 June 24th, 2012 01:10 AM
Euro Deal 'Long Intentions, Short Details': Analysts Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 October 27th, 2011 06:10 AM
simple go long or go short strategy stephenszpak NinjaTrader Programming 7 July 21st, 2010 11:05 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-14 in 0.15 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.91.38.173