Long and Short Positions at the Same Time? - Emini Index Futures Trading | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?
Updated: Views / Replies:9,170 / 39
Created: by tderrick Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors – all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you don’t need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Nashville, Tennessee
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja / Jigsaw / 9G
Broker/Data: AMP / CQG
Favorite Futures: NQ, YM and ES
 
tderrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,589 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 4,260 given, 2,527 received


kamicrazy View Post
It doesn't matter if you intend to trade different time frames.

If you have an overall long position you intend to hold overnight and then enter into an intraday short position you will simply exit your long.

This is due to regulations surrounding the handling of contracts to prevent a situation where you hold both positions.

You need two accounts to do this and as someone has already posted it could still be illegal.


This does appear to be the case.

Question answered.

grazie


AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
Reply With Quote
 
  #12 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Mac OS X
Broker/Data: MB Trading/AMP/LMAX
Favorite Futures: SL-1210 M5G
 
Posts: 72 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 31 received

The reason why Ninja Trader supports it in Sim mode is likely for one of these two reasons.

1) You used to be able to do this in the Forex cash market. The biggest example was MT4. If you had a long, opening a short would not close the long, you would have two open positions. In order to close a position you had to use a "close position" command.

I don't think all forex cash brokers did this. I don't remember MB Trading supporting this but I could be wrong.

2) It is legal in other jurisdictions. Along with increased leverage, like 400:1, brokers in other countries may offer such features. However most of these brokers will not allow US citizens to open an account...

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to kamicrazy for this post:
 
  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Nashville, Tennessee
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja / Jigsaw / 9G
Broker/Data: AMP / CQG
Favorite Futures: NQ, YM and ES
 
tderrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,589 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 4,260 given, 2,527 received



kamicrazy View Post
The reason why Ninja Trader supports it in Sim mode is likely for one of these two reasons.

1) You used to be able to do this in the Forex cash market. The biggest example was MT4. If you had a long, opening a short would not close the long, you would have two open positions. In order to close a position you had to use a "close position" command.

I don't think all forex cash brokers did this. I don't remember MB Trading supporting this but I could be wrong.

2) It is legal in other jurisdictions. Along with increased leverage, like 400:1, brokers in other countries may offer such features. However most of these brokers will not allow US citizens to open an account...


Thanks for the market insight

I notice you are a Mac user. ... Do you run the trading software off a PC partition - Bootcamp ?
or leave OS X running and use Parallels?


AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
Reply With Quote
 
  #14 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Mac OS X
Broker/Data: MB Trading/AMP/LMAX
Favorite Futures: SL-1210 M5G
 
Posts: 72 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 31 received

I use Sierra Chart through wine and I also have a PC I use to run multi charts. I connect to my PC using RDP.

Reply With Quote
 
  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
Nashville, Tennessee
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja / Jigsaw / 9G
Broker/Data: AMP / CQG
Favorite Futures: NQ, YM and ES
 
tderrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,589 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 4,260 given, 2,527 received


kamicrazy View Post
I use Sierra Chart through wine and I also have a PC I use to run multi charts. I connect to my PC using RDP.


Ah, ... of course.. I forgot that option


AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
Reply With Quote
 
  #16 (permalink)
Market Wizard
virginia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Favorite Futures: ES
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,185 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 626 given, 6,253 received


solotrader View Post
Wash trades is considered in the US criminal activity.

... Buy and sell orders for different accounts with common beneficial ownership that are entered with the intent to negate market risk or price competition shall also be deemed to violate the prohibition on wash trades.....

now you know how CME feels about your money.

Reply With Quote
 
  #17 (permalink)
Just a boy
Auckland, New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: Whatever moves in my timezone
 
Posts: 1,803 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 3,165 given, 1,367 received

I recalled I explored this strategy just over a year ago and had several email exchanges with my broker Mirus.

Aside from confirming the ability of NT to simulate this, Mirus confimed I could do this ie go long and short at the same time as long as i did this through two seperate accounts with them (which had to be in the same name).

I assume the fact that it is transacted through seperate accounts must satisfy the rules/law. I never actually persued it as I determined there was not really a viable strategy there ie double the margins, running two funded accounts etc - but I did get as far as receiving the paperwork from Mirus to open the 2nd account.

Reply With Quote
 
  #18 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: XTrader
Broker/Data: Advantage Futures
Favorite Futures: Energy
 
Posts: 2,028 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 1,680 given, 3,159 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


solotrader View Post
Wash trades is considered in the US criminal activity.

"No person shall place or accept buy and sell orders in the same product and expiration month, and, for a put or call option, the same strike price, where the person knows or reasonably should know that the purpose of the orders is to avoid taking a bona fide market position exposed to market risk (transactions commonly known or referred to as wash trades or wash sales). Buy and sell orders for different accounts with common beneficial ownership that are entered with the intent to negate market risk or price competition shall also be deemed to violate the prohibition on wash trades. Additionally, no person shall knowingly execute or accommodate the execution of such orders by direct or indirect means."

http://www.cmegroup.com/tools-information/lookups/advisories/market-regulation/CMEGroup_RA1308-5.html

Exceptions are not clear.

I believe there is a difference between "having" long and short positions at the same time and "entering" or "creating" long and short positions at the same time. The latter is obviously a wash trade. but the former may not be. Note that the rule you quote references "orders" and not "positions". Either way it's probably something safest to avoid. As solotrader said it is a criminal offense in the US and people have been penalized for wash trades.

Reply With Quote
 
  #19 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.traderwerks.com 
Taipei Taiwan
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Optimus
Favorite Futures: TW
 
Posts: 693 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 440 given, 440 received


solotrader View Post
Wash trades is considered in the US criminal activity.

"No person shall place or accept buy and sell orders in the same product and expiration month, and, for a put or call option, the same strike price, where the person knows or reasonably should know that the purpose of the orders is to avoid taking a bona fide market position exposed to market risk (transactions commonly known or referred to as wash trades or wash sales). Buy and sell orders for different accounts with common beneficial ownership that are entered with the intent to negate market risk or price competition shall also be deemed to violate the prohibition on wash trades. Additionally, no person shall knowingly execute or accommodate the execution of such orders by direct or indirect means."

http://www.cmegroup.com/tools-information/lookups/advisories/market-regulation/CMEGroup_RA1308-5.html

Exceptions are not clear.


cory View Post
now you know how CME feels about your money.

The wash sale rule ( 534 ) is designed to stop people from doing 'bad' things. It is also prohibited by the Commodity Exchange Act.

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

Bart Chilton spoke about it last summer in Chicago talking about firms cheating by trading with themselves.

Math. A gateway drug to reality.
Reply With Quote
 
  #20 (permalink)
TonyL
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 48 received



traderwerks View Post
The wash sale rule ( 534 ) is designed to stop people from doing 'bad' things. It is also prohibited by the Commodity Exchange Act.

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

Bart Chilton spoke about it last summer in Chicago talking about firms cheating by trading with themselves.

I can think of perhaps one reason to go long and short at the same time. When you pairs trade, isn't the objective to drop the loosing side and go the way of the winning position? Hence, once you've established the trend you go with the trend is your friend rule?

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > > Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

Al Brooks: TBA

Elite only

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Oct 19

RandBots: TBA

Oct 24
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long/short same contract tpredictor Commodities Futures Trading 12 January 17th, 2014 05:05 AM
Long and Short Positions on same/different Brokerage Accounts IMN77 Reviews of Brokers and Data Feeds 8 August 13th, 2013 02:07 PM
Apple’s Retail Army, Long on Loyalty but Short on Pay Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 June 24th, 2012 12:10 AM
Euro Deal 'Long Intentions, Short Details': Analysts Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 October 27th, 2011 05:10 AM
simple go long or go short strategy stephenszpak NinjaTrader Programming 7 July 21st, 2010 10:05 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:30 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-09-25 in 0.14 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.224.230.51