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Demo accounts order fill


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Demo accounts order fill

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  #1 (permalink)
owcow
North Yorkshire, Easingwold
 
 
Posts: 4 since Nov 2022
Thanks: 2 given, 3 received

Since funded accounts are demo, how do the order fills work such as limit orders? Do they get filled instantly? Let's say I bid 200 lots limit order, does it show as 200 bids sitting or just 1 bid interested? Or is it an instant fill when traded? Thanks

As an example of a funded program: Apex Funding

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  #2 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Elite_Member
United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Bookmap
Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
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The limit orders do not show on a sim account so you could place a 200 lot order and it will make no difference to what is showing for the actual resting orders on the bid or offer. So if there is fifty contracts actually bid or offered at a price and you place an 200 lot sim order at that price, the DOM or heatmap chart will still show 50 lots at that price.

I believe sim fills are dependent on the platform, some platforms had/have more realistic fills than others. Some platforms had pessimistic fills that required current price to go through the resting orders at a level and trade the next price before filling you so even if last in the queue you would be filled.
Some were optimistic and filled you on first touch but then people could scalp in sim and think things were easy, open an account and lose it quckly unable to get filled.
I understand Bookmap for instance has pretty realistic sim fills as it processes every single order going through, data feeds or platforms that chunk or consolidate data will behave differently
This can be important especially for sim trading thicker products with deeper order books like the ZN, 10 year notes, less important on thinner products like the NQ where price moves around a lot so you would most likely get filled with real orders in the same way as sim.

Some platforms can also give slippage free entries in sim which are unrealistic. Sim trading with stop orders in the NQ to bracket for a breakout to get in with no slippage might work as a sim strategy but less likely to with actual orders as real stop orders to enter would give slippage and real stop-limit orders to avoid slippage would often be unfilled in a thin market if price breaks rapidly with little back ticking.
Topstep for instance had a problem with sim traders exploiting the sim environment to reach the profit targets which is why they brought in a rule where they could reset an account they considered to be "sim abuse".

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  #3 (permalink)
owcow
North Yorkshire, Easingwold
 
 
Posts: 4 since Nov 2022
Thanks: 2 given, 3 received


Thank you for replying, I can see you have Gary's quote written on your profile. Surprised to see others that know him since I'm one of his students. If you have the information, do you know what funding firm offers fair rules since I'm trying to gather as much information as possible since I use his methods. Thank you once again


matthew28 View Post
The limit orders do not show on a sim account so you could place a 200 lot order and it will make no difference to what is showing for the actual resting orders on the bid or offer. So if there is fifty contracts actually bid or offered at a price and you place an 200 lot sim order at that price, the DOM or heatmap chart will still show 50 lots at that price.

I believe sim fills are dependent on the platform, some platforms had/have more realistic fills than others. Some platforms had pessimistic fills that required current price to go through the resting orders at a level and trade the next price before filling you so even if last in the queue you would be filled.
Some were optimistic and filled you on first touch but then people could scalp in sim and think things were easy, open an account and lose it quckly unable to get filled.
I understand Bookmap for instance has pretty realistic sim fills as it processes every single order going through, data feeds or platforms that chunk or consolidate data will behave differently
This can be important especially for sim trading thicker products with deeper order books like the ZN, 10 year notes, less important on thinner products like the NQ where price moves around a lot so you would most likely get filled with real orders in the same way as sim.

Some platforms can also give slippage free entries in sim which are unrealistic. Sim trading with stop orders in the NQ to bracket for a breakout to get in with no slippage might work as a sim strategy but less likely to with actual orders as real stop orders to enter would give slippage and real stop-limit orders to avoid slippage would often be unfilled in a thin market if price breaks rapidly with little back ticking.
Topstep for instance had a problem with sim traders exploiting the sim environment to reach the profit targets which is why they brought in a rule where they could reset an account they considered to be "sim abuse".


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  #4 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Elite_Member
United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
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Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
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@owcow

I have only tried Topstep and E2T. The trouble with funding companies is that the profit targets are quite large if trying to scalp. Possibly better opening a small accountof your own and sim trading then trying one lot trading with a broker set daily loss limit. Target not to make much money but try to be consistent and comfortable with out blowing up. Build confidence then increase size later and reduce round turn costs as volume increases.

Funding companies can encourage a swing for the fences trading style scaling in and out of positions to make as much as possible as fast as possible.
If trading equity index futures for example day trading margins can be low enough to only need to open a small account something to bear in mind as a non-US resident requiring funds converted in to US Dollars, or trading in US Dollar denominated products, also not necessarily wanting to send larger amounts to a foreign country.

For funding companies be aware that some have maximum volume amounts that can be traded each day in the sim accounts (to stop HFT sim abuse). Topstep for instance used to be 100 round turns per day maximum which shouldn't be a problem if scalping one lots, but other companies could have lower numbers.

You do not win as a trader, you just get to play again the next day. If that game doesn’t appeal to you then you should not trade. Gary Norden
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  #5 (permalink)
owcow
North Yorkshire, Easingwold
 
 
Posts: 4 since Nov 2022
Thanks: 2 given, 3 received

Well said, thank you very much


matthew28 View Post
@owcow

I have only tried Topstep and E2T. The trouble with funding companies is that the profit targets are quite large if trying to scalp. Possibly better opening a small accountof your own and sim trading then trying one lot trading with a broker set daily loss limit. Target not to make much money but try to be consistent and comfortable with out blowing up. Build confidence then increase size later and reduce round turn costs as volume increases.

Funding companies can encourage a swing for the fences trading style scaling in and out of positions to make as much as possible as fast as possible.
If trading equity index futures for example day trading margins can be low enough to only need to open a small account something to bear in mind as a non-US resident requiring funds converted in to US Dollars, or trading in US Dollar denominated products, also not necessarily wanting to send larger amounts to a foreign country.

For funding companies be aware that some have maximum volume amounts that can be traded each day in the sim accounts (to stop HFT sim abuse). Topstep for instance used to be 100 round turns per day maximum which shouldn't be a problem if scalping one lots, but other companies could have lower numbers.


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  #6 (permalink)
 shokunin 
Manchester, United Kingdom
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Optimus Futures, Rithmic, Denali
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 82 since Jul 2020
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The Rithmic Sim platform (used by many funded programs) is very realistic. I've been trading for many years now, and on casual observation I would really struggle to tell the difference during Regular Trading Hours. Slippage, time to fill orders, it all feels very natural.

When the market is very quiet, lack of reaction can be strange. For example, the ES overnight is sometimes dead. The act of my taking liquidity, even 1 contract, can sometimes trigger a small flurry of algo action. At the very least I'd see my trade on the footprint. Obviously that doesn't happen on Sim. But I'm generally not trading when markets are that quiet, so not something I'm bothered about.



owcow View Post
Since funded accounts are demo, how do the order fills work such as limit orders? Do they get filled instantly? Let's say I bid 200 lots limit order, does it show as 200 bids sitting or just 1 bid interested? Or is it an instant fill when traded? Thanks

As an example of a funded program: Apex Funding


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  #7 (permalink)
 algotrendz   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 18 since Oct 2022
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I use TradeStation for all of my algo modelings. They are basically MIT type fills which is not great. The decent part for me is that I port signals from TS to other platforms and some like IB, CTS T4 are very good with real-world type fills. One of the best lessons I ever got in developing system trading is to build your models to assume you don't get your price.

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