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They say no question is a dumb question....I have a Buy / Sell question.


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They say no question is a dumb question....I have a Buy / Sell question.

  #11 (permalink)
 
josh's Avatar
 josh 
Georgia, US
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forestcall View Post
I’m going to journal this experiment / theory. I will keep you all posted.

The doubt fuels me.

What would be helpful is if anyone knows of any resources to databases of historical data of the main futures markets? Such as the S&P-500.

Would you like butter and salt or caramel with your popcorn?
Personally I like caramel popcorn like they have in Thai movie theaters.


I don't want to weaken your motivation/fuel, but I don't doubt YOU. You have made a few posts and seem to be very nice, intelligent, humble, and analytical. So, I'm sure you'll do fine. But, if it helps you to think of me as a hater, and it drives you, then I'm happy to serve as your doubting muse, even though I'm not.

What I do doubt is the attitude of "this seems easy, just make $1k a day using a small target and large risk" ... any strategy which relies on an 88% win percentage to break even is something I would doubt being successful in the long term. I've just heard this so many times over the years, hence the popcorn (which I like with some butter!).

FWIW, for every successful athlete you hear about being motivated by doubters, there are 100 others who were motivated by doubters who failed. Motivation stemming from something negative like that is probably not sustainable, so I might suggest you continue to derive your motivation from other more positive things which I'm sure you already have! Cheers and welcome.

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  #12 (permalink)
 Kailash 
Moscow - Russia
 
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forestcall View Post
I fully realize I have a lot of logic points that need to be figured out.

Moving forward I will design a trading strategy from a pool of data points in addition to a traditional trading strategy. I actually do not understand enough to comment on how I will make my trades.

Based on initial (extremely brief) research of the past 4 years, the market did not (appear to) crash between 11 am EST and 5 pm EST. I will look at each day over a 10 year period with a fine-tooth comb.


I plan to open multiple accounts with $1k-$3k in each account.
I will transfer out each day's profits.

The general line of reasoning is that I will profit between $1k and $5k per day.
In a 30 day period, I can expect to lose $X amount based on a strict R/R measured against the account balance including profits of the day.

I will design this strategy so that I am only losing 1 account that has open trades.


Probably I have not understood exactly what you are doing, but from my perspective, there is nothing wrong in your system, as long as you backtest your strategy and get a positive result of its performance and parameters both in present days and when ES was at minimum volatility levels.

So my suggestion or better say my approach would be to write a trading system and just run it on 15-20 years of data. From a mathematical point of view, instead of considering different accounts to be blown, you can simply consider a catastrophic stop loss of 1.000$, or 2.000$...

And I would not fit/overfit the system. Just run it as you conceived it now.
And see how it goes. All the rest is just theoretical speculation about something that we don't know fully.

One parameter that I might want to consider, though, (but only after you have visually/manually decided that it's really worth consideration) is an indicator linked with the volatility of the underlying. I mean, let's suppose for example that you find out that the catastrophic stop loss happens in situations when volatility abruptly increases. In this case you might want to exit the trade before reaching the stop loss. Or maybe it's the opposit, that the account is usually blown when the underlying slowly falls and the increase in volatility actually helps you to reached the target.

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  #13 (permalink)
 
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 jakobe 
Atlanta, Georgia
 
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josh View Post
What I do doubt is the attitude of "this seems easy, just make $1k a day using a small target and large risk" ... any strategy which relies on an 88% win percentage to break even is something I would doubt being successful in the long term. I've just heard this so many times over the years, hence the popcorn (which I like with some butter!).

That pretty much sums it up.

To have a strategy that would require you to be right 88% of the time in order to eek out profits is not going to work.

The risk of an 80 tick loss to capture a small move will fail if you're right only 87% of the time. Plus commissions thrown in there.

If you can be right 60% of the time consistently then you've figured something out and should refine that strategy.

Best of luck.

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  #14 (permalink)
 planetkill 
New York City + NY/United States
 
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Just as a thought experiment, you don't realize losses until you sell. So I suppose if you have enough account balance to trade 1 contract without margin, then you can never be forced to sell. So OP's strategy could theoretically work if you trade without stop losses. Wouldn't you in theory be able to hold the losing position forever if you bought with your own cash?

With this strategy, you'd typically hit your small profit target same day or within the week. For a losing position that takes longer to recover, you'd then be comparing the $ profit from the small target to some interest rate you could easily earn if that cash were invested else where. Perhaps against an online savings account rate (I believe Amex is still over 1%).

Some very dirty math:
$300,000 to trade 1 ES contract without margin
$300,000 x 1% = $3000 annual interest
$3000 / 365 = $8.2 interest per day
8 tick profit target = $100 profit
$100 / $8.2 = 12 calendar days

So basically as long as your position hits the 8 tick profit target within 2 weeks, you're okay.

Then again if you have $300k ready to risk and are already actively day trading, then perhaps using the funds for something else such as option selling could get you a much higher return (30%).

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  #15 (permalink)
 
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 josh 
Georgia, US
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planetkill View Post
So I suppose if you have enough account balance to trade 1 contract without margin, then you can never be forced to sell. So OP's strategy could theoretically work if you trade without stop losses. Wouldn't you in theory be able to hold the losing position forever if you bought with your own cash?

With this strategy, you'd typically hit your small profit target same day or within the week. For a losing position that takes longer to recover, you'd then be comparing the $ profit from the small target to some interest rate you could easily earn if that cash were invested else where. Perhaps against an online savings account rate (I believe Amex is still over 1%).

Some very dirty math:
$300,000 to trade 1 ES contract without margin
$300,000 x 1% = $3000 annual interest
$3000 / 365 = $8.2 interest per day
8 tick profit target = $100 profit
$100 / $8.2 = 12 calendar days

So basically as long as your position hits the 8 tick profit target within 2 weeks, you're okay.

Then again if you have $300k ready to risk and are already actively day trading, then perhaps using the funds for something else such as option selling could get you a much higher return (30%).

First, I think it's great that people are even thinking of ideas like this. It's not new or novel, but it's at least different than what most people are thinking about, so kudos for that. In fact, it's essentially a poor man's Martingale strategy.

FWIW, with $158,250 you can buy 1 ES and ride it to zero. Also, I'd think that in current market regimes (and for the past 10 years or so) you'd basically be a long-only trader.

The frequency of winners (in this case, since you never lose, we can't use win rate) will determine the feasibility of the strategy. And while long periods of drawdown aren't extremely likely, all it takes is one such period to sideline you for months. Unless perhaps you had a rule that stated you could add a contract lower and continue with the strategy (a bit of Martingale). What is the probability of an extended period where you are unlucky enough to not get 8 ticks and the market moves straight past you and keeps going? This depends heavily on the entry but even with a low probability of this happening, it will happen, statistically (buying late Feb at the wrong time would have been pretty disastrous).

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  #16 (permalink)
 
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 Blash 
Chicago, IL
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forestcall View Post
Lets take MES as the example-

MES is on a Bullish trend. Based on the support and resistance and the MA-14-20-40-200 and the volume all give clear indications the market is going to go up at least 10-20 ticks in the next 4 hours.

In this example, lets say I buy 20 contracts on the MES or 2 ES with a 5-10 tick buy-sell and a 80 tick stop.
So we wait 30-60 minutes while we have multiple bars in a down trend and then the trend goes up and we reach the sell profit stop.

Why doesn't everyone do this?

I did this July 1 and made a gross of $276.25 and a Total PnL of $225.25
The market is actually bearish today but I felt very confident I would hit my tick sell-top.

Am I missing something? Yes I know the market could go crazy bearish and continue down.
But I am using Bookmap and NT8. I am looking at multiple data points.

Seems like this is a fairly easy way to make a steady $1k+ a day with very carefully planned exits. I can exit going down or up depending on the market trend and what the data is telling me.

Quoted from above:

Quoting 
Why doesn't everyone do this?

I feel the basic assumption behind this question is that it is free money. Why wouldn't you pick-up cash you find on the sidewalk on an empty street?

When we think we know what is going to happen next we will act in a way that is consistent with that belief. (gee who first said this....lol)

This is the opposite of probabilistic thinking/mindset. In the markets everything is probable.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #17 (permalink)
 
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 bobwest 
Western Florida
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forestcall View Post
Lets take MES as the example-

MES is on a Bullish trend. Based on the support and resistance and the MA-14-20-40-200 and the volume all give clear indications the market is going to go up at least 10-20 ticks in the next 4 hours.

In this example, lets say I buy 20 contracts on the MES or 2 ES with a 5-10 tick buy-sell and a 80 tick stop.
So we wait 30-60 minutes while we have multiple bars in a down trend and then the trend goes up and we reach the sell profit stop.

Why doesn't everyone do this?

"Why doesn't everyone do this?" Because those who try it get wiped out?

This is one of those strategies that look good on paper to new traders.

You are accepting an 80 tick loss if you're wrong, in exchange for a 5 or 10 tick gain if you're right. Basically, you have to almost always be right.

I think it's amazing that you think that "Based on the support and resistance and the MA-14-20-40-200 and the volume all give clear indications the market is going to go up at least 10-20 ticks in the next 4 hours." Really? You think you can count on this? Consistently? Over a span of time? With these kind of risk/reward numbers?


Quoting 
Seems like this is a fairly easy way to make a steady $1k+ a day with very carefully planned exits. I can exit going down or up depending on the market trend and what the data is telling me.

Try it if you like. Only risk money you are willing to lose.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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  #18 (permalink)
 
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 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
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forestcall View Post
Lets take MES as the example-

MES is on a Bullish trend. Based on the support and resistance and the MA-14-20-40-200 and the volume all give clear indications the market is going to go up at least 10-20 ticks in the next 4 hours.

In this example, lets say I buy 20 contracts on the MES or 2 ES with a 5-10 tick buy-sell and a 80 tick stop.
So we wait 30-60 minutes while we have multiple bars in a down trend and then the trend goes up and we reach the sell profit stop.

Why doesn't everyone do this?

I did this July 1 and made a gross of $276.25 and a Total PnL of $225.25
The market is actually bearish today but I felt very confident I would hit my tick sell-top.

Am I missing something? Yes I know the market could go crazy bearish and continue down.
But I am using Bookmap and NT8. I am looking at multiple data points.

Seems like this is a fairly easy way to make a steady $1k+ a day with very carefully planned exits. I can exit going down or up depending on the market trend and what the data is telling me.

what does book map do for you that can not be done in ninja trader 8 ?

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