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Swing Trading the ES - simplicity and understanding price levels


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Swing Trading the ES - simplicity and understanding price levels

  #31 (permalink)
 tntdollars 
Chicago, Illinois
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Keab View Post
If you're talking about the order entry (I think you are?) then I do it manually. And fast! There might be an algo that could be programmed how to do it but I really have no idea how you would set the parameters.

Looking at the time stamps on the volume chart over each bar (not able to post it as they only come up when hovering over the relevant bar), the move started at 14:35. 39secs. Those little pullbacks occurred at 14.35.53 secs and 14:35. 58secs.
So yes it is fast but it's tradeable.
See below for the same chart but for the payroll news on Friday. I use these charts when there is news as they derive from my broker feed so there is no chance of a lag which has occurred with my other charts before (used to use Investor RT with IQ feed data).

The chart is once again set to 2000 volume and actually doesn't give a chance to get in for a while. I looked back with a setting of 1000 volume and there was still no pullback so am happy with the settings.

The two big bars that jump higher happen over 2 seconds (13.30. 02 secs). No chance of beating that! But the three bars where the price pauses and pulls back to a low volume area on the volume profile occurred at 09, 18 and 30 seconds. Price will ALWAYS give you a chance to enter. Hope I've explained it well enough.



Yes, I will take a look at those and try to understand them thoroughly. You seem to like trading news. Take a look at

https://www.newsquantified.com/

I like their approach. By the way thanks for sharing.

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  #32 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart/Prorealtime
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Trading: SandP futures
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Thanks for the link, will take a look.

It's important to note (don't think I made this point yet) that I only trade really big outlier events. Only a big miss or a big beat well outside of analyst expectations gets me involved. Or surprise announcements like today.

Data which is at the very upper/lower end of expectations or even slightly outside of those parameters does not get me involved as it's too murky a picture.




R.e. options I do actually look at the put call ratio every day to see if there are overbought/oversold conditions and make a note as there are huge unwinds if these trading days are beaten so people have to unwind their positions. But these are relatively rare as you probably know.

I also have tried to use the data presented here for intraday trading but it usually doesn't update quick enough to provide any insight in time. I'm not aware how else to get this data in realtime as I'm in the UK and options brokers are practically non-existent.
https://www.cboe.com/us/options/market_statistics/current/?mkt=cone

Interesting to note today that puts on the index options were traded very heavily in the first hour.

I reacted to your comments (and was typing very fast as I was trading!) because you stated "If you knew the amount of information you could get from the options market you would not be saying this. And to answer you, you absolutely need to know dealers positioning for swing trades. Absolutely my friend. I can't say much about day trading because that is not my arena since I'm still learning how to build automated systems (even though i'm sure you still do need to know positioning) but for swing trading it's a must. You need to know in which direction to trade and only by knowing (AGGREGATE) positioning from the main players can you form an assumption that if true can lead you to profit and not get ran over by a truck."

To me, that was telling me that if I don't do this then I don't know what I'm doing. Perhaps that isn't what you intended but that's the way it appeared to me.
It's good that your approach works well for you, it would give you a lot of confidence when entering a trade.
As stated I'm not aware that I can get the data even if I tried. I'm going to see if Sierra Charts has any ideas regarding the options totals info from the CBOE webpage.

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  #33 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart/Prorealtime
Broker: Sierra Chart/prorealtime
Trading: SandP futures
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Classic UK session reversal trade.

Context for set up.
Price breaches highs made in overnight trading but there is absolutely no fundamental reason to move much higher.
So price breaches the high and then reverses straight away. Same thing happened yesterday. No knowledge of how and why people are positioned in the options market required. Trading is really very simple. Read through the first post and understand the key concept:

On most trading days, there is no fundamental market changing news which can drive price to trade at much higher or lower prices.
In the absence of this market changing news, price will simply move around between major technical levels and react to them.


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  #34 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Price moves lower after move described above.
There is no fundamental news driving this move either, and the market is till bullish after yesterday's announcements.
Price drops into an area of interest from yesterday and reacts sharply. Sellers have gone too far, are now trapped offside and buyers have stepped in to correct price higher.
Note the amount of volume that is shown in the lower box (23800)-a huge jump in volume.
Note the volume within the 5 min candle occurred in the areas that has the yellow square around it. This area has been beaten to the upside.
Note the large amount of sellers versus buyers (-2210) in the candle who are trapped as lower prices have been violently rejected.

On most trading days, there is no fundamental market changing news which can drive price to trade at much higher or lower prices.
In the absence of this market changing news, price will simply move around between major technical levels and react to them.

As an exercise to show the difference between trading conditions, imagine that sharp move lower had occurred after some bad economic news and that instead of creating a large pin bar, the high volume 5 min candle had closed towards the bottom of the candle near 3168. That is an entirely different set of circumstances isn't it?

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  #35 (permalink)
 
glennts's Avatar
 glennts 
Corpus Christi, TX / Westcliffe, CO
 
Experience: Advanced
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>>Trading is really very simple.<<

Keep this up and the Trading Gods will be irked by your hubris and they will smite you down.

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  #36 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
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glennts View Post
>>Trading is really very simple.<<

Keep this up and the Trading Gods will be irked by your hubris and they will smite you down.

I said simple, not easy.

Simplicity comes from waiting for areas of supply/demand (technical levels) to be hit and then seeing how price reacts to it. If it reacts how you would expect then you enter a position. This is how most days work in the absence of market moving fundamental news.

When there is market moving fundamental news hitting the wires then you jump on board as quick as you can and hold on.

Simple.

Identifying the levels, identifying what constitutes the price action you want to see, quickly working out the importance and severity of market moving news are all simple concepts. The complexity lies within these concepts.

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  #37 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
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Keab View Post
I said simple, not easy.

Simplicity comes from waiting for areas of supply/demand (technical levels) to be hit and then seeing how price reacts to it. If it reacts how you would expect then you enter a position. This is how most days work in the absence of market moving fundamental news.

When there is market moving fundamental news hitting the wires then you jump on board as quick as you can and hold on.

Simple.

Identifying the levels, identifying what constitutes the price action you want to see, quickly working out the importance and severity of market moving news are all simple concepts. The complexity lies within these concepts.

Here is an example, right now, of a simple concept but with the complexity added.

Price has come off highs and has bounced, as expected (no fundamental market moving news around), at the US open price from yesterday. Simple concept.
Complexity: do you go long or not?

In order to explain the importance of the US open in a logical and easy to understand manner, and whether you should have a long or short bias at this moment in time, you simply have to understand where and why traders are positioned.

The first half hour of trading have extremely high trade volumes, and are the highest (usually except in cases of surprise market moving news) along with the closing volumes.

The reason why the open is so important is that it is a guide to showing where and how most traders are positioned as everyone is piling in in the first 30 minutes. High volumes=a guide to where trades are lurking.

So, to use yesterday as an example (16th December 2019) it is safe to say that most people were positioned long from the open.
As price has dropped down to the open price today (I think it has missed it by 0.25) price has reacted.

I would have a long bias at these levels for one simple reason.
There is nothing that has come out in the news today to show why the prices set yesterday during the market opening phase are too high/should be further broken to the downside.
From a technical perspective, add on the fact that there are 'probably' resting orders in the market to defend these levels that should result in a price bump higher as the relatively low volume UK session would not have the required heavy volume necessary to break these levels. All of these levels, and this type of thinking is relevant in the absence of market moving news which means yesterday's price levels are still [edit] valid.

I always mark out the first 30 mins of volume on my charts, and also have a chart set to US market hours only so I can always see when price is getting to relevant zones. It works well as sometimes it's hard to see just the US session in a 24/23 hour chart, but it's also important to have the 24 hour chart as some large price moves, based on fundamental info, do occur outside US market hours e.g. Non Farm payrolls.



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  #38 (permalink)
 Keab 
London UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Been on an extended holiday-first day back.

Will probably sit and watch to get back in the swing of things.

Things have got a bit tasty over the weekend so there is one extra bit of fundamental data to digest as and when it comes in.
At the moment we have:
China trade war news/Trump/Chinese tweets
Surprise beats or misses in fundamental data releases (Fed comments/minutes, NFP etc)
And the new one-the situation with Iran.

Not every piece of news coming through the wires will be market moving, so until I hear otherwise my primary concern will be any piece of news that reports an attack on anything that will affect the oil price. An attack on a major Saudi/any other refinery, or on a tanker/tankers in the Straights of Hormuz will be the primary market moving news.
A major attack on Israel will also be up there.

Am not too sure what effect, if any, stern rhetoric from a foreign leader will have on any of this so will stay out if this occurs, at least for the time being.

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  #39 (permalink)
myke3295
fort pierce Fl
 
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Keab View Post
Hi there,

Long time member of Big Mike's webpage (sorry I just can't call it futures.io).
As I have progressed in my trading over the years I have traded many instruments, including FX, bunds and futures (Dax, Dow Jones and ES). I now trade the ES on an intraday and longer term basis, along with FX, oil and gold on a longer term basis. This thread is mainly concerned with the ES as that is where I trade intraday.

I have followed many concepts and tried various different things, have been on numerous trading courses, was scammed by a well known scammer on forexfactory so like to think I have seen (and heard) a fair amount of bullsh*t. I almost traded through a well known futures prop shop and trading provider just before they went belly up and all the pooled trader funds mysteriously went up in smoke (a lucky escape). The only thing I haven't done is blow my account.

So in short, I've been around.

The purpose of this post is to try to pass on a few basic tips that will hopefully result in some lightbulb moments for people who are struggling. I want to write in a way that is free of trader babble as in my experience a lot of courses are full of waffle which means basic concepts are hard to grasp. It's also good for me to set down my thoughts in a (hopefully) coherent manner

So here I go.

My main lightbulb moment over the last few years has been simple. Always have this in your head.

On most trading days, there is no fundamental market changing news which can drive price to trade at much higher or lower prices.
In the absence of this market changing news, price will simply move around between major technical levels and react to them


Simple (I hope).

But what does this mean in practise and how do you use this for trading?
Well, using a normal trading day with no big market changing news, if price moves to an area that I have identified as a major area of S/R then I am looking for price to reverse at this point.

I expect price to reverse because in order for price to break through a major S/R level and move a lot higher or lower, there has to be an extra reason, not just a technical one, which can justify price moving to a new price level.
Or, in other words:

In the absence of this market changing news, price will simply move around between major technical levels and react to them.


Think about this logically. If you're sitting at major S/R at the bottom of a swing, what possible reason does price have to break this level and move lower? If there is no bad news/info that the market was unaware of until that point in the day (e.g. a Trump tweet about the trade war continuing/getting worse, poor economic price data which are both bad news), why would the ES move lower? Trader expectations are unchanged, so how can price move any lower? There is no reason for it to move lower! And if it can't move lower then it will do two things-i) stabilise at that lower level or ii) move higher.

Think of something you really like. Ipods. Peanuts. Tuna fish. Coffee.
Imagine an old fashioned market where there is an auctioneer calling out the prices really quickly. Imagine the price of your favourite product (mine is definitely peanuts) moving up really fast and the auctioneer is shouting out lots of prices and lots of people are calling out in order to buy more peanuts. Price keeps going up but then all of a sudden people start thinking "well damn I love peanuts but this is getting expensive, there's no reason for me to keep buying up here at these prices so I don't want to buy anymore here."

All of a sudden there is less shouting out from the peanut buyers and the price increases slow down. There are less buyers, or they have stopped buying altogether. In short, peanuts have become too expensive.

Other people who love peanuts recognise that price has gone too high, people got too excited and that the real or fair value where most people will buy peanuts is a lot lower. So they shout out and start to sell peanuts and price moves lower because in all the excitement the price has gone just too high, the buyers have realised their mistake and aren't there anymore.

At this point, imagine two scenarios:
1) There is no news/market info that has been released that can fundamentally change the price of peanuts. Conditions are exactly the same as when people were originally buying.
2) The largest peanut producer in the world has released an update. They have made an mistake with their inventory and have realised that they now have 50% more peanuts in storage than they thought. These peanuts need to be sold.


Under Scenario 1, this is what will happen:

A) Price moves lower to where most people originally bought the peanuts. The majority of people think it was a fair price, and the evidence is shown by the fact that so many people were happy to buy there. So it's logical that they will start buying again, combined with the fact that it is likely that less people will be willing to sell/short in the expectation of making money from a lower price. Think about if you were a seller at a price that just 1 hour ago people were happily buying at. How confident would you be of making a profit? Do you think this would be a good place to open a short? You'd probably not be too confident. And you'd be right.

Or

B) Price moves even lower than where most people originally bought the peanuts. This is because that there were also a lot of people who not only bought at the fair price, but quite a lot also bought at an even higher price. They're now a bit spooked as the price has dropped lower than their buy price and as we're all human, they're panicking a bit and are selling their positions to CLOSE them. The people selling to close their positions might actually outnumber the people who are now buying at what was a pretty fair price that most people were happy with. Hell, some people might even be actively selling to open a position (to make money on the price going lower) as they can see the buyers getting swamped even at these levels.
As a result, the price of peanuts now goes even lower than where the majority of people were happy to buy them.
So say that most people bought peanuts at $100 per kilo. It went all the way up to $101 per kilo. Price has now moved lower to $99 per kilo.
And at this $99 level, you know that for whatever reason, this is a major S/R level.

At this point, now is the time to ask yourself the question. The be all and end all.

In the absence of any market changing news, what chance is there that price can continue lower?
The answer should be-not much chance to all.

In fact, in the absence of any market changing news, there is a very good chance that the entire same scenario that I have listed above will happen in reverse. Or it might be a bit late in the day now and most people have gone home so price will just hang around and not move much.
And so on and so on.

It is important to understand that most days are exactly like the one listed above. Market changing news does not happen every day. Or two days. Or three days.
So when price reaches a major technical level, and there is no news that can explain why it can move any higher lower then guess what. It won't move higher or lower!

At this point, now think about Scenario 2:
The largest peanut producer in the world has released an update. They have made an mistake with their inventory and have realised that they now have 50% more peanuts in storage than they thought. These peanuts need to be sold.

Work out in your head what this means for the price of peanuts.
Does it fundamentally change what people will be willing to pay for the price of peanuts?
And importantly:
Do you think that the major technical level at $99 will hold?

It is at these moments, and at these levels, where both myself and many others make their mistakes.
We do not recognise that we are no longer trading in the conditions described in Scenario 1. This is because most days are Scenario 1 and we are either unaware of the inventory news or we do not understand the severity of the impact.

The $99 per kilo price major technical level is based on old information. In other words, at that price in the recent past, us peanut lovers were happily going about our business without knowing that that the largest peanut producer in the world was about to flood the market with peanuts.
This news is now big enough to fundamentally change how much we are willing to pay for peanuts, and it is going to be a hell of a lot lower than $99.

So why would anyone buy at $99?

Well, when price reaches $99 it might look like it's going to reverse as some people will probably still try to buy peanuts because they have made the mistake of thinking that we are still operating under Scenario 1. Or they don't really understand the implications of the news and mistakenly think that $99 per kilo is a good price to buy peanuts and make a profit as price will now rise like before.

But it won't do any good. There are now huge amounts of peanuts being unleashed onto the market, so the price has absolutely no reason to be $99, it should be a lot lower. You should be happy to sell and make a profit.

So to summarise what I have said so far:

1) Most days, in the absence of market changing news, price will move around between major technical levels and will react/reverse when reaching them.
2) In the absence of market changing news there is a good chance of reversal at these major technical levels.
3) It is important to have a good understanding of what the fundamental conditions are in your chosen market and what type of news, and level of severity, will cause markets to no longer respect previous major technical levels.


So for the SandP at the moment, they market is expecting a trade deal with China. The market is also expecting that interest rates might move lower which is also good news. If there is a credible change in either of these scenarios then price will move quickly and violently lower. Depending on the severity of the news, attempting to go long at major technical levels near the current price will be a mistake.
Price will always react somewhere so there are plenty of chances to go long, but the news is just too big. These areas are traps and price continues to move lower.


What are the consequences of not understanding these core concepts?
Traders lose confidence and chop and change their trading systems as they don't understand why their levels don't work anymore. Which is a shame as price will stabilise at some point, and then we're back at Scenario 1).

I hope that makes sense. Maybe it doesn't!
If there is any interest I'll post what I do to work out major technical levels. Adios

This is gold!

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Last Updated on February 3, 2020


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