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What time frame do YOU use and WHY?


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What time frame do YOU use and WHY?

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  #1 (permalink)
Salt Lake City
 
 
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Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

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  #3 (permalink)
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This one's gonna be all over the place because there are just so many ways to trade LOL...

I personally trade intraday off M5 and M15 charts. That said, I always have a M1/M3/M30/H1/H2/H4/H8 on tap; lower timeframes to pinpoint better entries and, in the event that one of those scalps becomes a swing trade, higher timeframes for overall direction and important levels.

Analyzing multiple timeframes can be confusing because you will get conflicting signals, but ultimately all of the charts are saying the same thing once you get used to it. And you're right, a M15 chart is great for striking a balance between intraday noise and still being able to trade effectively.

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  #4 (permalink)
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I always try to be on a minimum of m30... Every time, and it's very tempting, to go to a lower time frame, like 5m or 1m... I always lose money... It's like some law... I think to see what the market does on a lower time frame, but >80% of the time I'm dead wrong, and I get sl triggered...

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  #5 (permalink)
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I use a low tick renko as my trigger chart, with 15-minute as my higher time frame view.

That said, I’ve been recently trying to spend less time looking at charts and more time eyeing my DOM.


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  #6 (permalink)
Dallas, TX USA
 
 
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Monthly / Daily / Weekly charts ultimately give me a directional bias for intraday trading. I mark support / resistance on the higher timeframe chart and will use a 1h down to a 512 tick for entries. I stay cognizant of when I am fading my directional bias & when a trade could be a potential home run this way. Timeframe confluence is the most important thing in my trading, period.


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  #7 (permalink)
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Rrrracer View Post
This one's gonna be all over the place because there are just so many ways to trade LOL...

I personally trade intraday off M5 and M15 charts. That said, I always have a M1/M3/M30/H1/H2/H4/H8 on tap; lower timeframes to pinpoint better entries and, in the event that one of those scalps becomes a swing trade, higher timeframes for overall direction and important levels.

Analyzing multiple timeframes can be confusing because you will get conflicting signals, but ultimately all of the charts are saying the same thing once you get used to it. And you're right, a M15 chart is great for striking a balance between intraday noise and still being able to trade effectively.

Maintaining the shape of price action across timeframes ensures that you keep perspective.
Different charts across multiple timeframes is gauranteed conflict.
The same chart viewed across multiple timeframes eliminates most of that conflict.

Two charts below.
1. LTF showing the shape of price action relative to the last 4 days of highs and lows.
2. Shows the shape of the same LTF price action relative to the last 11 days.




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  #8 (permalink)
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Not much of a time based trader, but I use a 144 tick chart when trading the YM and because of the low volume I use a 55 tick chart when trading the MYM.

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  #9 (permalink)
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Brandenton View Post
Not much of a time based trader, but I use a 144 tick chart when trading the YM and because of the low volume I use a 55 tick chart when trading the MYM.

A lot of traders don't use time-based bars at all.

There are tick and volume charts, which show activity instead of time (x number of trades per bar, or x amount of volume -- contracts traded -- per bar.) There are range bars (each bar shows a particular number of points/ticks of price movement) and renko bars (similar to range bars, but prettier .)

As has been said, it's all over the place.

I suggest simply trying several and seeing what lets you understand price action the best.

Also, try different settings for different markets, which have different volatility rates.

Mainly, be clear about the reasons you prefer one choice over another. For instance, I thought your initial comment made a lot of sense, simply because you offered a clear reason for your preference -- keeping noise down:


RagBadger View Post
I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

But a lot of traders will use something like 5-minute bars, and will say the same thing. The perceived noise is different for them, given whatever their trading approach is. I use somewhat fast volume bars (188 for YM) and find 1-minute time bars perfectly fine.

It's in the eye of the beholder. Experiment.

Bob.

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  #10 (permalink)
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This question really makes me think, because there are so many ways to choose between time-based, tick, or volume-based charts and then there are always order-flow approaches.

I've gone back and forth between 1- and 5-minute bar charts and have found that 5-minute bar charts are helping me improve. I've wondered if I could add a fine-grained level of confidence with a dom of some sort in order to execute once I think I see a signal on a bar chart. I believe FT71 does something similar, I've seen his setup in his trader bites where he watches a 2-tick renko and then executes on CT-Bookmap which he uses I think to do a last-second order flow check before placing an order, but that is a lot for me to learn and right now I just try to have enough confidence in the entries I'm seeing on the bar chart.

There are other approaches you could do like Belafiore discusses in one of the SMB Capital videos (I need to find the link) where he has one or more of his traders switching down to a 2-min bar chart during market open.

Happy trading!

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  #11 (permalink)
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Time, tick, and price based charting are all different ways of displaying the same data.

I try to look at everything to get as close to the whole picture as I can.

Weekly, Daily, Hourly, 15min, 5min, range bars, intraday tick charts (approx equal to 10-15 sec candles).

The more that everything from the big picture lines up with the shorter time-frames the better the probability of my trade working out.

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  #12 (permalink)
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Ninja 8 allowed me to see the difference. Just keep adding data series to the same chart window. Be sure and use different colors. Most interesting to me was a 5 minute ES, a crowd favorite with a 2000 tick in the same space. It really shows you what is going on.

In sailboats the saying is you can have speed, low cost and comfort, but you only get two. Charts are the same way you must decide what your style is then the element to give up becomes an informed decision.

My primary is a 2000 tick ES. But I like a larger point of view chart also. The old pros say to keep multiplying by 3 or 4 as you add. I come from an accounting background where we eliminate detail in order to increase understanding and that is what the longer time frame does, making it clearer why we stopped and reversed where we did.

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  #13 (permalink)
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I can’t seem to trade on anything smaller than 2hr candles

Usually I use Weekly/Daily and 4hr for timing entries. Longer time frames just make more sense to me I guess.
Anything smaller and it seems like there’s a lot of noise (although that could just be because I don’t know how to interpret it yet)
Smaller timeframes do present more opportunity for profit, however. As I get more experienced hopefully I’ll be able to transition downward.

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  #14 (permalink)
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I feel that anything below 4h is 1) Noise 2) takes up too much of your time watching the screen.
I only go down to 4h because it's my lower time frame in my tripple screen system of 4h/Daily/Weekly.
My trading time frame is actually daily but the 4h helps with specifying the entry.
But the important thing is to choose a trading time frame that suits you.

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  #15 (permalink)
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the best answer for me regarding best time frame to trade has always been the one i can afford the risk on. So define the maximum amount of risk you can live with on a trade. Say $100 for example. I am willing to risk that amount of money on this trade. So i can use all charts monthly, weekly, daily, 240 60, 10 even a 3. I use the bigger ones to determine a primary direction and then the smaller ones to determine the most immediate direction i want to trade today. I personally trade "levels" so ill find a level and ill draw horizontal lines above and below that level. This gives me a price range. So i take that price range and compare it to how much is a particular contract. If i can on that time frame get in for $100 then that is my time frame.

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  #16 (permalink)
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I use the 15min on the macro view and 3 min heikin ashi for scalping

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  #17 (permalink)
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I use candlesticks and patterns created by the price movement. It does not matter what timeframe you trade. If you can figure out various patterns formed by candlesticks, you can always trade successfully.

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  #18 (permalink)
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I'm a swing trader, and I use Daily, H12, and H4 charts for my main positions. I also use M30 charts to try to pinpoint some intraday cycle timing.

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  #19 (permalink)
Wichita Kansas USA
 
 
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I trade market profile structure and it is based on the 30 minute bars. That is my big puzzle.

Then, I have a 15 second chart next to that (30 minute) so I can see the smaller puzzle rotations within that 30 minute.

That is the way I do it.

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  #20 (permalink)
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My 2 cents:

Rather than forcing yourself to learn to trade on 1min, 5min, 15min, 1hr, daily or weekly time frames, what we hear on most of the free youtube videos, webinars and training groups. It is important, above all, to understand what type of trader oneself is. Am I a scalper, day trader, swing trader or investor? Believe me, this makes a whole lot of difference in mental state while trading.

Based on what type of trader I'm, one should approach the market and choose the time frame that suits the type of trading style. For scalpers, 50-100 tick charts are better over 1 min. For day traders, 1min is best, like penny stocks guys. Larger time frame you move to from here, slow and bigger moves you are looking for. It's all relevant. Prediction from a 5 min time frame is only good for few minutes mostly (say 5-15 min), same for 30min it will be good for next 30min to 2 hrs or so. Price might not move in that prediction period at all and may just consolidate.

I've traded of 3,9 and 27 minutes for a while and I liked that setup. You change the instrument, you might have to change the time frame. I'm new to futures and from my experience so far, TICK charts are lot better than time charts.

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  #21 (permalink)
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I solely only used 3 minute timeframe for day trading.

I do not look at any other timeframe, because I personally feel other time frames is a distraction. I am looking for intraday swing trades.

I also trade with the trend of momentum. I do not look for key reversal areas.

I am only going to be in the trade on average for 1 hour in the mornings, so i am not sure why the need to look at higher time frame charts, just adds to confusion and missed trades.

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  #22 (permalink)
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The market moves in zigs and zags. A lot of those zigs and zags are meaningless, as far as the trend is concerned. In writing an indicator, math is a help, but I find that using a longer time frame really smooth's out the hic cups. I use a 2000 tick chart. Everyone who trades has their own likes and dislikes. However, when someone has a setup that they like, they might try looking at that setup in different time frames - in historical time.

Good luck,
WCwings

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  #23 (permalink)
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Doubt there is a perfect time frame that holds for all time, mkts are too dynamic and volatility changes leading to different scenarios that may or may not suit your risk profile. Think defining the risk you are comfortable with then looking at variance within different time frames will lead to preference of a time bar locally. Being aware of shorter and longer time frames should just give you view points of others with different risk profiles and helps define a broader market prospective and maybe better entry or exit levels for your comfort time frame. Just my thought you need to be dynamic with markets

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  #24 (permalink)
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RagBadger View Post
Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

I typically start with longer time frame and move to one minute for entry.

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  #25 (permalink)
Springfield Mo
 
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I day trade with 2tick, 4tick, 8tick range bars. You have to figure out what works for you!

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  #26 (permalink)
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What a loaded question! You, just as every trader at some point in their journey asks themselves the same question. Some of us have looked to others for the answers. That too is part of the process of figuring out who YOU are as a trader. After you spend a few years trying to glean from the "experts" some of their expertise, you might come to the conclusion that you have to make your own choice of how you want to approach the markets.

As Al Brooks pointed out: "I don't listen to anybody". Well, that's because he developed his own personal style of trading.

Here are some thoughts:

1. As in any profession.... Just make money. That's the point of any work.
2. Get to know yourself. Your weaknesses and your strengths. Determine what you need to correct in your own deficiencies.
3. Embrace your own talents. Don't be intimidated that the "experts" don't trade your way. Eventually, you will encounter some successful traders who trade similar to the way you do.
4. Once you are comfortable approaching the market and have a peaceful strategy....."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".

So to answer your question, I suggest the following:

1. Figure out how much money you realistically want to make in a day. Is it feasible? How many points will I have to make?
2. Do I want my trades to last minutes? Or hours? Or days?
3. How much of my capital am I willing to risk in the market?

I personally believe that you can iron out many of the most basic questions during your time on the Sim Acct. If it takes a few years or more, then that's what it takes. Not losing money is almost the same as paying yourself to learn.
Some folks are very intelligent and can learn a system quickly. As a retired nailbender, I have taken longer. But that's ok as we are all wired different.
There are many sizes of shoes. No one shoe fits all.

While my wife and I have learned together over the last couple of years, we absolutely see the market so differently. She looks at my trading/charts and just shakes her head. And I look at hers and wonder... "What the heck". Yet, we are both satisfied with what we do. Like I said "Just make money".

I use a 280 tick candlestick chart for entry/exits. I am happy with 3-4 ticks. I am happy to stay longer when a short trend develops. (Bank the green!) I also use a 15 minute chart with order flow volume profile,pivots/previous day OHLC and VWAP. That 15 minute chart doubles pre-market as a 4 hour chart to see where price stands, then I switch over the the 15 min. for use during the session. But my main focus is on the 280 tick chart. I am a little OCD and I do not like draw down, so therefore I have spent considerable time choosing wisely my entry points.

If you are anything like me, you will try every last suggestion. Try every bloody indicator. Go to naked charts. Add indicators back in. Take them off again. Eventually, you will FINALLY start to understand yourself and how you view the markets.

Like my wife says "Trading is a PERSONAL journey" unless you go to work in a prop firm and then they will TELL you how you are to trade.

No one on this forum can teach YOU how to trade well. Yes, they can help.

FYI, we have spent 60+hours a week for almost 3 years at this. Nothing else. It's just now that we both are starting to be comfortable trading and not intimidated. I believe this is because one has to understand the opposition before engaging them. And often we are the opposition.

This is a philosophical reply to a basic question.

In closing: What do you want? And how do you want to get there? Answer these questions before as you choose your time frames.

Enjoy the journey!

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  #27 (permalink)
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RagBadger View Post
Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

I used to look at 30 min, and didn't do very well there (ES). The smallest chart I look at now is the daily, and my results have dramatically changed. I dont get stopped out nearly as much ,and yeah it hurts when I'm wrong, but when I'm right the profit is really nice. my last trade was buying at the open of october 10th, and i took some heat was down like 2500 at some point, but I held the trade until last week for almost 9K of profit.

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  #28 (permalink)
Saskatoon
 
 
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RagBadger View Post
Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

Depends on market

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  #29 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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I have traded with 1min and 5min bar charts and 5min bar charts seems to be a good fit for me and my style. 1min charts seemed too frantic for me but I was also trading bigger contracts ES and NQ at the time. Slowing down to 5min charts and trading the micros has helped me.

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  #30 (permalink)
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I trade the FDAX in short term. Means: holding time is 1 min to max 2-3 hours. I look at the daily chart every morning to see what expectations market participants who invest in the long term might have.

I trade in the 1 min chart and continuously monitor the 10 min chart.
In case of difficult entries I try to recognize accumulation zones in tickchart.

What I think you have to consider when choosing the TimeZone: Many brands are created reflectively. I.e. people or algos recognize patterns and react to them. So the question must be: in which TimeFrame do the colleagues, who can move the market and who trade a similar style to me use?

In the european retail scene there has been a lot of talk about volume charts in recent years.
Volume profiles, footprints, headmaps, etc.

You can get a small part of this volume information by looking at NTB (non time based) charts. In addition to the tickchart, I have a fixVolume chart where I can see, for example, where exactly the Volumen ran in a large peek.

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  #31 (permalink)
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I don't use time based, but use 2000 ticks. I am primarily a scalper and this works very well for my purposes.

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  #32 (permalink)
Sydney, NSW/Australia
 
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When I was trading, have stopped for personal reason, I used the 5 min chart. I like the 5 min chart to trade as I like to be in and out of trades quickly. I do look at 15 minute charts but only use 5 min charts to trade. All the best with your trading.

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  #33 (permalink)
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RagBadger View Post
Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

I use 200 milliseconds.



Why?
That's how I roll, baby.



.
.
.

Full time financial software beta tester.
~When asked what I do for a living.
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  #34 (permalink)
Marin County, CA USA
 
 
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Stopped trading time frames long ago.

Time adds distortion to price action and price is the only thing that matters. Tells you everything.

Once you remove the distortion of time via price only bars, it's like turning the lights on.

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  #35 (permalink)
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I used to believe that.

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  #36 (permalink)
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During different time periods isnt it possible that there are different active players in the market and therefore the psychology of the price action changes given each different set of players? In my experience the eurpoean rth are different than the us rth as an example. Do you take this into account by only looking at specific time periods that should have a consistent set of players or do you do something else to filter population noise? Just thoughts, nothing ive perfected. Thanks

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  #37 (permalink)
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bxman View Post
During different time periods isnt it possible that there are different active players in the market and therefore the psychology of the price action changes given each different set of players? In my experience the eurpoean rth are different than the us rth as an example. Do you take this into account by only looking at specific time periods that should have a consistent set of players or do you do something else to filter population noise? Just thoughts, nothing ive perfected. Thanks

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Yes, absolutely. If you breakup any chart into half hour segments, study the volume, the momentum, how it trades on the DOM, study the price action over a period of let's say 30 trading days, there definitely are different players. Some of those players include algos/programs. I've studied the 30 yr bond now for a number of years and very often I can predict fairly well what's about to happen just by watching the action on the DOM at a certain time of day.

I use a 15 minute chart with the ZB and ES - typical support/resistance, yesterday's high/low, overnight high/low etc as a reference. Then I use any type of renko chart to EXCLUDE time and just see what's going on intrabar.

One of the best indicators I have found is NinzaTrader's Volume Delta: https://ninza.co/product/volume-delta
Set it up on a simple renko chart which EXCLUDES time, run it on market replay and study the numbers. Make a list of all your trades in the last 30 trading days and run it in market replay to see if the indicator would have been helpful.
I'll upload a jpg of one of my charts in a few minutes as an example - have to start my trading computer.

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  #38 (permalink)
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The volume delta numbers help tell the story. It's a great filter.





This is one of my simple swing systems - 5/5 PT/ST

As you can see, the volume delta filtered the two trades very well.

Of course, I also have the Jigsaw DOM up as well.

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  #39 (permalink)
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Thanks. The only point i was trying to make is i dont think you can be 100% time agnostic, as there can be information differences due to time.

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  #40 (permalink)
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craigmalm View Post
I don't use time based, but use 2000 ticks. I am primarily a scalper and this works very well for my purposes.

When I was trading I used to use the 5 minute time frame to take my trades. This was due my personal approach as I did not hold trades over night. I am currently not trading am taking a break.

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  #41 (permalink)
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Also curious for ZN what your thoughts are on the time periods and changes in players are throught the day or week. Anything seem to repeat itself?

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  #42 (permalink)
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bxman View Post
Also curious for ZN what your thoughts are on the time periods and changes in players are throught the day or week. Anything seem to repeat itself?

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The ZN, ZB, ZF are mostly running together. The ZN has the higher volume. I personally prefer premarket and after 8:30 am if there's news. If the ES is running in trend after the open, I'll look at the ZB to see if it's running inversely. But I generally prefer small ranges for my 5/5 swing strategy.

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  #43 (permalink)
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What sort of bar you use (time, renko, range, etc.) depends on what you are looking for. I trade on the base of price action (PA). Therefore I use range bars (maybe renko could do as well) because I want to see what PA is doing. In a time based bar I can't see that in enough detail. Maybe a 1min, chart could but the different bar sizes make the chart look messy.

So if you want to trade based on PA I would advice you to use range bars. Besides that, I don't see how you can trade on anything other than PA. It is the only realtime indicator there is.

Have fun trading!

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  #44 (permalink)
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I use tick charts... 900t for MES and 2000t for ES... I think time based charts can distort your moving averages

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  #45 (permalink)
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Meanwhile moving averages distort price.

Can't be any other way.

Do people use moving averages to find what car to buy? Or which airline to use on their next vacation? Or what brand of toilet paper to purchase?

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  #46 (permalink)
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If you understand price pattern, you do not need any indicators as all indicators are lagging from the price actions.

For example, if you look at ES 3min chart today, it had a strong bearish entry at 3388.50 (with a stop loss at 3390.50). If you also follow fibonacci extension, its max target was at 3339.25 (423.6%) and it reached that. This would have resulted in a P/L of +49.25 points per contract in just one trade within an hour.

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  #47 (permalink)
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sraman View Post
If you understand price pattern, you do not need any indicators as all indicators are lagging from the price actions.

For example, if you look at ES 3min chart today, it had a strong bearish entry at 3388.50 (with a stop loss at 3390.50). If you also follow fibonacci extension, its max target was at 3339.25 (423.6%) and it reached that. This would have resulted in a P/L of +49.25 points per contract in just one trade within an hour.

IF is the key word

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  #48 (permalink)
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A hammer can be used to drive a screw but it is not the best use of a hammer nor is it the best way to seat a screw. Moving averages excel at representing areas of support and resistance and in that context can provide very useful information. The lagging indicator objection is probably from failed attempts to use moving average crossovers as triggers. This pix is of 30 sec bars inside 5 min time blocks. Many traders gravitate to 5 min bars because they lift them a bit out of the noise and are often the building blocks of the bigger swings. Volume Ladder Metro is on the 30 sec bars and GOMMP on the 5 min block. The blue/red hash marks are the bar's pivot. A useful characteristic of moving averages is that they point in the direction of the trend of the time period ( bar count ) they represent. The black 10 period average ( 5 min) does show us the trend of the 5 min time period and while the trend lower persists, the black ma will do a good job of representing resistance when tested. The white 3 period average (90 sec) clearly shows how the 30 sec bars trend higher into the high of the 5 min bar (serving as support) and the 30 sec bars trending into the 5 min bar low (serving a resistance). If you are to trade 5 min bars while they are trending lower it is advantageous to sell after the 5 min bar high is made and the next swing down is beginning. The break of the white ma ( arrows ) marks this event. You can also notice how the 30 sec bars close above / below their pivots depending on which side of this 5 min cycle is in play.


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  #49 (permalink)
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Having worked extensively with all the bars types in the now 38 yrs of trading, I have found there is one consistently useful observation that can be made with any bar type and that has to do with the H-H and L-L bar count. The attached are hopefully self evident in making this point. The swing numbers displayed are the H-H / L-L bar counts.








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  #50 (permalink)
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Below is an illustration of the 5 min ma representing where the buyers are standing until overwhelmed by supply.




2340 volume bars standing on the moving average that represents support. Notice the bar counts.. volume bars tend to be extremely consistent in their H-H and L-L duration. What is interesting about this is the suggestion that it is volume rotation that shapes price action.




Monthly chart below. Very interesting isn't it.




Below is a Higher Time Frame variation of the concept expressed on the earlier 30 Sec chart but with 1 Min bars. When a trend changes price will push in the new direction until it finds buyers or sellers on a Higher Time Frame. Here the black 5 min moving average breaks and price trends lower until it finds support on the Yellow 15 Min ma. Notice on the left after the first bounce from the Yellow price broke above the black ma and then returned to test it for support and found buyers before continuing higher. When 5 min support later broke price pushed up to test it from the underside and found sellers. Resistance becomes support and support becomes resistance. Old school chart trading. Notice the swing counts.




Below... same concepts but on yet a Higher Time Frame. The Sienna indicators indicate S/R on a 6 Hr Time Frame and the White indicators are S/R on the 24 Hr Time Frame. In the middle of the chart price broke the Sienna ma (6 Hr) and fell looking for higher Time Frame Support, which it found on the 24 Hr Pivot. From that bounce price broke back above the 6 Hr ma and then tested lower looking for support which it found on the 6 Hr Pivot. This is the same alternating Support/Resistance behavior as on the earlier 1 Min and 30 Sec charts and confirmed for me that the 24 Hr Cycle had made a Higher Low in the overnight hours and more importantly that the several day downtrend was about to break and price would then push higher looking for the next 24 Hr High against Higher ( Weekly) Time Frame Resistance, which I marked with the White rectangle representing where I expected price to initially test.


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  #51 (permalink)
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@glennts, as a chart/indicator junkie, these make my hands sweat.

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  #52 (permalink)
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I find that when in a trade sweaty hands are also a pretty good indicator.

As an after thought I'd like to add that the notion that price movement is random is an argument made by those who cannot see the well defined structures and behaviors that are there regardless of time frame or bar type. (Circling back to the subject of the thread. )Were movement random then the orderliness shown in charts posted above and the insight they offer would not be possible. There is an art to trading and that art is in the ability to see the patterns that price movement continually carves out. When you get it right it's possible to make thousands in minutes. The difficulty and challenges that stand in the way of getting to the point where you have the skills and experience to make that consistently happen is never truly appreciated and because of that, rarely attained. And this includes the assumption you possess innate ability.

Perfection is not possible nor is it necessary to find success. There is no perfect bar type, there is no perfect time period, there is no perfect tick or volume or Renko setting. There are rational decisions that can be made in creating your charts that help you see the opportunities that are there. Rather than think of price action as random, think of it as dynamic and not doing the same thing the same way each and every time. What is consistent is that there will always be a Open, Close, High and Low of every bar type on every time frame. The High of the Day will always be the High of a 6 Hr bar, the High of a 60 Min bar, the High of a 15 Min, 5 Min and 1 Min bar as well as any tick, volume or Renko bar of your choosing. The challenge is whether or not you are able to recognize these events as they are occurring. Understanding how indicators can be useful will help with this. Being aware of potential areas of S/R can help you with this. But unless you can "see" what is taking place you cannot possibly trade it. I've built a library of screen grabs of Hrly H/L's, 24Hr H/L's, 6 Hr H/L's, thousands of images over that last decade. The pix posted above are from those folders. If you study how the turns you wish to trade look when they show up on your charts you will eventually be able to recognize when the opportunities are present and more importantly, when they are not. The information is there for you find if you put in the time looking for it.

All you can do is try. I posted at some other time that because the overwhelming number of people who start off trading will disappear within five years, that your primary goal should be to press on for more than five years. If you can survive longer then that you'll have accomplished more than most and when you cross that threshold with all the battle scars from lessons learned you will transition from being a "pie in the sky" novice to being a "just might make it" trader.

Good Luck.

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  #53 (permalink)
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I use 60 minute and daily of ES for big picture overview, trend and what my bias should be at the moment (long or short)

I use 1 min chart with VWAP for intraday trades with emphasis on longer chart bias
(meaning if the bias/trend on larger time frame is down then I will put more emphasis on trading shorts from VWAP rather than looking at longs from VWAP

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  #54 (permalink)
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SunTrader View Post
Meanwhile moving averages distort price.

Can't be any other way.

Do people use moving averages to find what car to buy? Or which airline to use on their next vacation? Or what brand of toilet paper to purchase?

Great point, but what is the answer then?

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  #55 (permalink)
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Dayvid23 View Post
Great point, but what is the answer then?

Should be obvious: don't bother with lagging, distorting moving averages and just use price. Aaaaand time.

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  #56 (permalink)
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Dayvid23 View Post
Great point, but what is the answer then?

Just curious.

Is the fact that people don't use their shoes to peel potatoes a reason for you to believe that shoes are not relevant and you should now go bare foot? I'll admit that while I don't use moving averages to mow my lawn I do find them useful in making money. That others may not have found a way to make them useful does not make moving averages or any other indicator or trading method invalid. It is foolish to accept statements as absolutes unless the person making them can provide some supporting argument to help us understand how they arrived at their conclusion. I don't post here very often but when I do I will usually post charts that illustrate the concepts I am trying to convey. I do that out of respect for the readers and to show the chart based reality that underpins my comments. To say that moving averages distort price is as illogical as arguing that because they are not used to select toilet paper that is somehow proof that they are not useful in making trading decisions. Moving averages are primarily a low pass filter. They remove higher frequency noise (lower time frame price movement) and show lower frequency trends (higher time frame price movement). They help you avoid the problem of not seeing the forest for the trees. Being aware of the larger context that is determining how price is behaving is information I find quite useful.

If people have alternate points of view to share it would be better if they explain them in detail so that we can all benefit and learn from their experience. Posting charts that illustrate the points you want to make are much more informative than just making comments more appropriate for Twitter trolls.

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  #57 (permalink)
Legendary Pratik_4Clover
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Usually 1 min for my intraday trades. There are times when I do analysis for swing trades and long term views but that's not always for trading, I usually do that on 15 min for swing and Daily for really long term(weeks and months) view.

Usually my charts looks like this



This is 1 min one.

Also, to add some personal touch, all TFs do work, what you should be concerned about is how much time you want to stay in trade first and then decide which TF is suitable for you to get maximum input for that period of time, you also need to come to terms with maximum time you want to allow yourself to get to target or out of trade if things go sideways.

1 min chart works for me because I do not like to stay in trades for more than 10-15 mins. Its not to say that I never, but its very rare and for that purpose 1 min TF offers enough input to make decision.

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  #58 (permalink)
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LastDino View Post
Usually 1 min for my intraday trades. There are times when I do analysis for swing trades and long term views but that's not always for trading, I usually do that on 15 min for swing and Daily for really long term(weeks and months) view.

Usually my charts looks like this



This is 1 min one.

Also, to add some personal touch, all TFs do work, what you should be concerned about is how much time you want to stay in trade first and then decide which TF is suitable for you to get maximum input for that period of time, you also need to come to terms with maximum time you want to allow yourself to get to target or out of trade if things go sideways.

1 min chart works for me because I do not like to stay in trades for more than 10-15 mins. Its not to say that I never, but its very rare and for that purpose 1 min TF offers enough input to make decision.

I agree wholeheartedly

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  #59 (permalink)
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Do traders, that actually trade, need a chart with moving averages to see how they distort and lag price? Really?

Here is SPX daily chart with a 10 period MA. On first glance it appears that MA offers support on some days, some days not. It is illusionary. Change the length and/or change the calculation to weighted/exponential/shifted back/shifted forward/Jurik/Hull/etc etc it is all the same. Nothing follows price as closely as price itself. MA's offer no heads up for reversals. All they can do, after the fact, is emphasize trend direction. Which, for the experienced, should be obvious anyway.

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  #60 (permalink)
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A useful insight by Richard Nordquist, Ph.D. Rhetoric and English, into how innuendo can be used to defend a point of view that is not credible.

>>Innuendo is a subtle or indirect observation about a person or thing, usually of a salacious, critical, or disparaging nature. Also called insinuation.

In "An Account of Innuendo," Bruce Fraser defines the term as "an implied message in the form of an allegation whose content constitutes some sort of unwanted ascription towards the target of the comment" (Perspectives on Semantics, Pragmatics, and Discourse, 2001).

As T. Edward Damer has noted, "The force of this fallacy lies in the impression created that some veiled claim is true, although no evidence is presented to support such a view" (Attacking Faulty Reasoning, 2009).<<

The only persuasive argument about the uselessness of moving averages that can be made is if we can be assured that none of the < 5% of traders who are still around past the theoretical 5 year mark use moving averages in their decision making or that none of the >95% of traders who fade away in less than 5 years have ever tried trading without moving averages, thus sealing their doom. The problem with this is that I and the traders in my group and every other successful trader I have met in my decades of doing this use moving averages in one way or another. That some have not found success doing so is no more conclusive than the fact that many have also not found success using indicator free naked price action. There are many ways to skin this cat and to insist that any particular approach should be avoided because of the belief that one's failure with that approach somehow represents a universal truth that everyone should heed at their own peril, is a narrow minded disservice to those seeking assistance.

This particular conversation is way off the subject of this thread and out of respect for the OP it needs to wind down. Those who have an open mind and want explore how moving averages can be useful I invite you to PM me and we can get together on Skype voice chat and do some real time analysis during the trading day. Mine starts at 5:30 Central and usually ends by 11:30. This offer is for 1 week only.

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  #61 (permalink)
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Hi @SunTrader and @glennts,

Both sides of the moving average discussion/debate/disagreement can be interesting, and it is certainly worth pursuing. Just not here.

It is off topic here in this thread if it goes on too long, and in any event, things are starting to heat up a little more than they ought to on both sides of the question.

Please tone it down and show appropriate regard for other members and for forum rules regarding civility. Any disparaging remarks are going to end up being deleted as a moderator action.

If, for instance, you use a given timeframe because you think its moving average tells you something you need to know, that is relevant because it's part of why you use that timeframe. If you don't use moving averages, that is fine too, for the same reason. If you get into an argument, either way, about whether moving averages are any good, you're starting to veer off-track. If it gets personal, it oversteps a line.

Please keep it on-topic and respectful.

Thanks.

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  #62 (permalink)
omaha ne
 
 
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I use 1min for intraday. I'd like to try tick charts but tradingview doesn't have em.

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  #63 (permalink)
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IMO, your bar size (aka time frame or volume or range setting) should be based on what your active/dominant scale is for whatever session you're trading. IOW, whatever bar size makes a chart that has enough amplitude for you to trade, not too much and not too little, you just pick the most optimal bar size you can. There's an active scale of what most of the volume is trading, and then there's your scale of what amount of amplitude you trade. They may be the same or different.

IMO, I abhor time charts because time is irrelevant to how price moves. Volume or tick charts are much better than time, but I still don't like those because price can move on high or low volume. Volume is a sneaky thing in that regard, so IMO it's not really as useful as most people seem to think.

Price-based charts are my favorite, and I believe are the only true mathematically/logically correct way to plot data. By "price-based" I mean range charts, renko charts, and point & figure charts. All three of those are basically the same thing, albeit with differing amounts of bars. They're all based on a reversal amount which determines when to make a new bar, which IMO is the best way to plot data.

All software as far as I can tell has coded renko charts wrong... for the most part it's correct, but at every reversal/swing/pivot it may be a little bit off. It should give you the exact same swings/pivots as a range chart of the same exact reversal amount. But it doesn't because it's coded wrong, because the software companies don't understand how data analysis works. So, for myself, I just use range charts because they're 100% accurate. Some software starts the range bar at the closing price of the prior range bar, and some software starts one tick further away... but that's okay, it just varies the amount of bars on the chart, but the swings/pivots will all still be 99.9% identical.

BTW, I think tick charts are a silly concept -- why would you care about how many transactions went into a bar? Do you care about the small retail traders -- no. You care about the big traders because they have the majority of volume and they're the ones that move the market/price. It's the volume that matters, so volume charts makes more sense than tick charts. BUT, it just so happens, since the big players use relatively small volume transactions most of the time, that tick charts ends up about the same as an equivalent volume chart. But it's just kind of silly that noone seems to understand that a volume chart is actually what they're trying to accomplish with their tick charts.

BTW, if you like drawing trendlines, I'd suggest using point & figure charts for that, because the less bars you have per swing/pivot, the more accurate your trendlines will be. But this is another discussion lol... it's a discussion about how everyone is actually drawing trendlines wrong... it's a sneaky thing about how graphs/data and scales work.

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  #64 (permalink)
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In all my years of trading, and posting online (both 20+) I'd have to say unscientifically of course most traders say they don't like time charts.

If that is the case (?), I'm glad I am in the minority.

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  #65 (permalink)
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Daily makes sense to me.

I have daily weekly and 30 minutes on my screen.

Charts are pretty crappy tools in general, but at least you can take in a lot of stuff with a glance.

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  #66 (permalink)
Berlin+Germany
 
 
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NO one mentioned trading on Orderflow, Marketprofile, Volumeprofile, DOM. Sometimes i think these offered tools are more vodoo than useful.

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  #67 (permalink)
London
 
 
Posts: 1 since Dec 2019
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I trade on 5m chart. I don’t like charts weighing on my mind for weeks on ends, and personally prefer to take quick regular profits (and recently, mostly losses too).
I recently held a losing trade due to a bad decision for 3 nights straight and couldn’t sleep properly.

That said I’ve found the old adage that daily responds better to chatting to be accurate and all my best trades have occurred on it, but that’s another story.

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  #68 (permalink)
Berlin+Germany
 
 
Posts: 29 since Jan 2020
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It´s really frustating watching NQ´s 30 min chart from 01. February to 03. February. The NQ made 858 points without a real setback !
Holding NQ over night would have been a gain of $ 17,160. In hindsight it´s easy to say why haven´t i bought one contract? But who has the nerves and is so cool holding NQ for two days over night? The risk is immense.

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  #69 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Ilsede, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Rithmic / CQG / Ninja Trader Brokerage
Trading: NQ
 
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Antares66 View Post
It´s really frustating watching NQ´s 30 min chart from 01. February to 03. February. The NQ made 858 points without a real setback ! But who has the nerves and is so cool holding NQ for two days over night? The risk is immense.

Never ever I'd go for this kind of trades, NQ can (and will!) be a killer market (especially for your account!).

I'm very happy with my tiny but consistent profits every single day which usually can 'easily' be achieved in less than one minute per trade, and mostly within only a few seconds.

I'm trading NQ for almost 10 years now, and I've learned my lessons the hard way....so just take what the market offers to you and run.

Just my $0.002.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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  #70 (permalink)
Berlin+Germany
 
 
Posts: 29 since Jan 2020
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Daytrader999 View Post
Never ever I'd go for this kind of trades, NQ can (and will!) be a killer market (especially for your account!).

I'm very happy with my tiny but consistent profits every single day which usually can 'easy' be achieved in less than one minute per trade, and mostly within only a few seconds.

I'm trading NQ for almost 10 years now, and I learned my lessons the hard way....so just take what the market offers to you.

Just my $0.002.

Thank´s for your advice. Although being experienced in stock trading i´m a greenhorn in trading futures. I own a motivewave order flow edition but with IB´s datafeed tick charts aren´t possible. I also tested Quantower and Sierra but i´m not quite sure which one will be my future trading platform in the future. I have access to Thinkorswim which offers tickcharts and renko for the last three days. I would like to use renko charts, maybe order flow tools, but for that i must have an additional datafeed. I could connect motivewave to IQ but this is quite expensive. Sierra with denali would be an alternative, or Ninja with kinetick.
Why do you prefer Ninja and what are your prefered tools? Hope i´m not too curious At this time i´m trading MNQ to get a feeling for the future market and to reduce risk.
Schöne Grüße

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  #71 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Ilsede, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Rithmic / CQG / Ninja Trader Brokerage
Trading: NQ
 
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Antares66 View Post
Thank´s for your advice. Although being experienced in stock trading i´m a greenhorn in trading futures. I own a motivewave order flow edition but with IB´s datafeed tick charts aren´t possible. I also tested Quantower and Sierra but i´m not quite sure which one will be my future trading platform in the future. I have access to Thinkorswim which offers tickcharts and renko for the last three days. I would like to use renko charts, maybe order flow tools, but for that i must have an additional datafeed. I could connect motivewave to IQ but this is quite expensive. Sierra with denali would be an alternative, or Ninja with kinetick.
Why do you prefer Ninja and what are your prefered tools? Hope i´m not too curious At this time i´m trading MNQ to get a feeling for the future market and to reduce risk.
Schöne Grüße

Well, IMO you should give Sierra Chart or NinjaTrader 8 a try. I use CQG with NT and I'm happy with the data feed, it's smooth and reliable.

I'm trying to keep my charts as clean and simple as possible by using only support / resistance and supply / demand zones. I trade pullbacks and reversals while looking at pure price action and momentum, which imho is essential for trading a market like NQ. I use Renko charts as well as a 450 Tick chart and a 5 minute chart, my trades are solely executed on a 12/2 ninZaRenko chart.

Hope this helps....

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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  #72 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Portland, OR
 
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I've been trading only on a 2hr chart for over a year now. I've traded on every time frame you can imagine ha
Why? It's still intraday and cuts out all the noise. Huge difference in my trading and strategy development.

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  #73 (permalink)
Berlin+Germany
 
 
Posts: 29 since Jan 2020
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Daytrader999 View Post
Well, IMO you should give Sierra Chart or NinjaTrader 8 a try. I use CQG with NT and I'm happy with the data feed, it's smooth and reliable.

I'm trying to keep my charts as clean and simple as possible by using only support / resistance and supply / demand zones. I trade pullbacks and reversals while looking at pure price action and momentum, which imho is essential for trading a market like NQ. I use Renko charts as well as a 450 Tick chart and a 5 minute chart, my trades are solely executed on a 12/2 ninZaRenko chart.

Hope this helps....

Thanks a lot . It´s also my opinion to keep the charts as clean as possible. I found out that the monthly pivots often offer support/resistance.
Because IB is my broker, buying NT + subscribe to kinetick would be to expensive for me. I can´t use CQG with IB.
I will return to SC for a while and hope DXfeed will be available for Motivewave in the future.

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  #74 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Ilsede, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Rithmic / CQG / Ninja Trader Brokerage
Trading: NQ
 
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Posts: 1,326 since Sep 2011
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Antares66 View Post
Because IB is my broker, buying NT + subscribe to kinetick would be to expensive for me. I can´t use CQG with IB.
I will return to SC for a while and hope DXfeed will be available for Motivewave in the future.


That's correct, but if you ever think of switching to NT Brokerage, you'll have CQG data feeed for only $12 / month if you don't need Level II data.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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  #75 (permalink)
Rovigo (ITALY)
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart, MotiveWave
Broker: Rithmic, Dorman, Interactive Brokers
Trading: Emini, Nasdaq, DAX, Bund, IBEX
 
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Willbur View Post
I trade the FDAX in short term. Means: holding time is 1 min to max 2-3 hours. I look at the daily chart every morning to see what expectations market participants who invest in the long term might have.

I trade in the 1 min chart and continuously monitor the 10 min chart.
In case of difficult entries I try to recognize accumulation zones in tickchart.

What I think you have to consider when choosing the TimeZone: Many brands are created reflectively. I.e. people or algos recognize patterns and react to them. So the question must be: in which TimeFrame do the colleagues, who can move the market and who trade a similar style to me use?

In the european retail scene there has been a lot of talk about volume charts in recent years.
Volume profiles, footprints, headmaps, etc.

You can get a small part of this volume information by looking at NTB (non time based) charts. In addition to the tickchart, I have a fixVolume chart where I can see, for example, where exactly the Volumen ran in a large peek.

That's so true!! algos recognize patterns, so we must in some way synchronize with what algos (and other traders) see. It's not important if you believe that market will start to rally, the point is if everyone else willl believe the same. .... you need other people to think the same as you think in order for your trade to make money.

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  #76 (permalink)
Berlin+Germany
 
 
Posts: 29 since Jan 2020
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Daytrader999 View Post
That's correct, but if you ever think of switching to NT Brokerage, you'll have CQG data feeed for only $12 / month if you don't need Level II data.

That´s interesting. Did you buy Ninjadrader´s lifetime edition or are you using the free edition without trader+ and orderflow tools?
$12 for CQG datafeed is really inexpensive. For Sierra i would have to pay $56 for service pack 6 and denali datafeed + $3.25 for CME, a total of $ 59.25 per month.
Taking into account CQG datafeed for $ 12 per month, the purchase would have paid for itself in two years.

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  #77 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Ilsede, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Rithmic / CQG / Ninja Trader Brokerage
Trading: NQ
 
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Posts: 1,326 since Sep 2011
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Antares66 View Post
That´s interesting. Did you buy Ninjadrader´s lifetime edition or are you using the free edition without trader+ and orderflow tools?
$12 for CQG datafeed is really inexpensive. For Sierra i would have to pay $56 for service pack 6 and denali datafeed + $3.25 for CME, a total of $ 59.25 per month.
Taking into account CQG datafeed for $ 12 per month, the purchase would have paid for itself in two years.


Yes, I purchased a Multi-Broker lifetime license many years ago.

If you need additional Level II data, the monthly fee would be around $36 if I remember correctly.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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  #78 (permalink)
Rovigo (ITALY)
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: SierraChart, MotiveWave
Broker: Rithmic, Dorman, Interactive Brokers
Trading: Emini, Nasdaq, DAX, Bund, IBEX
 
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Posts: 370 since Feb 2018
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RagBadger View Post
Hi guys,

I'm trying to generally gauge what other people are using in terms of time frames? I personally use anything about a 15 minute chart to avoid a bunch of the noise.

What do you guys use?

I use many different timeframes, I switch from one to another all the time and try to have different perspectives in mind in order to understand the point of view of different market participants.
After I have a bigger view of my trade, I implement the trade on a 5 min. chart.

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  #79 (permalink)
San Antonio, TX
 
 
Posts: 73 since May 2019
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In the past I have tried tick charts in the 100 - 5000 range, I went back to timed charts. I've been doing the 3 min chart, then tried 1 and 2 volumetric charts. and I realize that my reactions are not fast enough.

So I'm using a 5 min Volumetric chart, with the 15 min as overview.

In stocks, I use 240 hour for trades.

Also, I've learned that I'm getting eaten alive trying to trade in the first minutes of the market. This is where I have contributed to WS's coffee fund with my trades.

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  #80 (permalink)
Toronto Canada
 
 
Posts: 24 since Dec 2018
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15/30 minute to see the bigger picture of the last couple of days. 5 minute and 1 minute for entries, especially when looking at the footprint chart. It is easier for me to see some aggressive activity in the moment in the 1 minute footprint.

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