Asking Suggestions On Next Step After Profit With One Lot Trading-Micros - futures io
futures io



Asking Suggestions On Next Step After Profit With One Lot Trading-Micros


Discussion in Emini and Emicro Index

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one techa with 23 posts (48 thanks)
    2. looks_two TraderMich with 8 posts (8 thanks)
    3. looks_3 TCCONDE with 6 posts (10 thanks)
    4. looks_4 MiniP with 5 posts (20 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one bobwest with 8.5 thanks per post
    2. looks_two snax with 5.8 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 MiniP with 4 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 techa with 2.1 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 11,995 views
    2. thumb_up 197 thanks given
    3. group 205 followers
    1. forum 86 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Asking Suggestions On Next Step After Profit With One Lot Trading-Micros

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received

Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to techa for this post:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
Indicator from a HTF on a LTF chart
NinjaTrader
Needing harmonic patterns indicator
TradeStation
1-min Intrabar indicator
MultiCharts
Multichart NET: where can i find esplanation on CustomIn …
MultiCharts
heatmap order flow +
NinjaTrader
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
How much do you know about Bitcoin?
56 thanks
FIO Journal Challenge - April 2021 w/Jigsaw Trading
38 thanks
The Crude Dude Oil Trading System
36 thanks
I finally blew up an account
33 thanks
The tiyfTradePlanFactory indicator
21 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 JonnyBoy 
Market Wizard
Montreal, Quebec
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: Kinetick
Trading: ES
 
JonnyBoy's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,559 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 706 given, 3,751 received



techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

It is extremely difficult trading with a single contract, so if this is working out for you then great. Trading 2 lots gives you additional flexibility. I would consider begin trading with 2 lots on the E-micro and then transition to E-mini when you have met your goals.

--------------------------------------------------------
- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
--------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
The following 14 users say Thank You to JonnyBoy for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
 snax 
Legendary Market Wizard
Chicago
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Edge Clear
Trading: MES
 
snax's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,595 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 6,380 given, 6,389 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Hey @techa, I recently went through a similar experience and though everybody's journey is different, the advice I was given by the futures.io community was overwhelmingly in favor of trading multiple contracts in the MES, and its been a very valuable learning experience. I discovered a lot of things I could improve once I started trading just 2 contracts instead of one and it really opens up a lot of possibilies once you get to 3+ where you can get your 1R+ profit and still have runners going, its a whole other skill-set that I find easier to learn on a smaller instrument than stressing out over multiple contracts in the ES for now at least. I usually trade just 2 contracts but I am trying to start bumping up to 3 or 4 on my more confident entries.

Hope that helps, cheers!

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 14 users say Thank You to snax for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


snax View Post
Hey @techa, I recently went through a similar experience and though everybody's journey is different, the advice I was given by the futures.io community was overwhelmingly in favor of trading multiple contracts in the MES, and its been a very valuable learning experience. I discovered a lot of things I could improve once I started trading just 2 contracts instead of one and it really opens up a lot of possibilies once you get to 3+ where you can get your 1R+ profit and still have runners going, its a whole other skill-set that I find easier to learn on a smaller instrument than stressing out over multiple contracts in the ES for now at least. I usually trade just 2 contracts but I am trying to start bumping up to 3 or 4 on my more confident entries.

Hope that helps, cheers!

Not to sound like an idiot but what does 1R+profit mean?
I can only really manage my trades on Wed-Fri so I think I'll set up on my sim 2 or 3 lots on Mon and Tues and track that for a bit to see how that works. When I first started earlier this year on my sim account I was doing 3 lots and did well, but when I went to real money on the micros I discovered that live trading is MUCH more stressful and I had to limit myself to the one trade a day because I had zero self control. Using the one lot has helped me to wait for the better opportunities. Thanks for the advice!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


JonnyBoy View Post
It is extremely difficult trading with a single contract, so if this is working out for you then great. Trading 2 lots gives you additional flexibility. I would consider begin trading with 2 lots on the E-micro and then transition to E-mini when you have met your goals.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think you are right that it does make more sense to start practicing with 2 lots on micros first. But when I feel I have that down and then go to full ES should I go back down to 1 lot to start or stick with 2 lots?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
Sarasota FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, YM
 
bobwest's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,490 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 49,125 given, 21,774 received


techa View Post
Thanks for the suggestion. I think you are right that it does make more sense to start practicing with 2 lots on micros first. But when I feel I have that down and then go to full ES should I go back down to 1 lot to start or stick with 2 lots?

To jump in here, my sense is that you should be careful about wanting to go to "full ES" very soon. The point value in dollar terms is 10 times the size of MES, and that huge additional load on a person's perception of risk (and their actual risk, too) is not something to jump into too quickly.

Maybe after 2 lots of MES, try 3, etc. There's no hurry to go back to full ES values until you really are ready. For example, 5 lots of MES equals half a lot of ES in dollar value. (There will be higher overall comm/fees of course with more contracts.) You can ease into the higher-stakes game, which may be wiser.

Slow steps, taking on additional risk in small increments, will probably work better for many people.

Don't be in a hurry to hit the big time and get rich. It usually doesn't end well.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 13 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


bobwest View Post
To jump in here, my sense is that you should be careful about wanting to go to "full ES" very soon. The point value in dollar terms is 10 times the size of MES, and that huge additional load on a person's perception of risk (and their actual risk, too) is not something to jump into too quickly.

Maybe after 2 lots of MES, try 3, etc. There's no hurry to go back to full ES values until you really are ready. For example, 5 lots of MES equals half a lot of ES in dollar value. (There will be higher overall comm/fees of course with more contracts.) You can ease into the higher-stakes game, which may be wiser.

Slow steps, taking on additional risk in small increments, will probably work better for many people.

Don't be in a hurry to hit the big time and get rich. It usually doesn't end well.

Bob.

I don't imagine going to full es for quite some time because I am just now seeing some consistency in my trading. I just know at some point the goal is to trade the full es instead of the micro and not sure what goals to surpass before I do that. I know I will need to fund my account much more than I currently have. I began my account with 3k and lost almost 1k before I really stuck to my trading plan and am starting to see profit with one lot per day. ($30-$50 per week after freakishly high fees).

The funny thing about trading is that each stage in the process brings new risks and mental challenges to overcome. To truly be successful at this though, I imagine it is necessary to at some point move to multiple lots of full contracts but the risks are monstrously higher.

I am SUPER grateful for some of the seasoned traders on this website that highly encouraged me to start with micros because I foolishly thought I could start scalping full es when I began this journey. Had I done that I would definitely have thrown in the towel by now! Thanks for the advice!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 9 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 MiniP 
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,143 since May 2017
Thanks: 1,104 given, 2,899 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

why go full ES?

If the MES is your cup of tea then trade that and just add size. Yes it follows the ES but it is not the same animal. If you are having success with the MES then stick with it, you don't need to change things.

if you want to trade Full ES then add a few more contracts.

my 0.02 is you stay with the MES for ever or until the point you are trading such a large lot size that you cant get a fill and need to bump up to the ES.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 8 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received



MiniP View Post
why go full ES?

If the MES is your cup of tea then trade that and just add size. Yes it follows the ES but it is not the same animal. If you are having success with the MES then stick with it, you don't need to change things.

if you want to trade Full ES then add a few more contracts.

my 0.02 is you stay with the MES for ever or until the point you are trading such a large lot size that you can get a fill and need to bump up to the ES.

-P

Mostly due to fees. I am with Infinity Futures which I really like a lot due to their excellent customer service. But micro fees for me are $2.04 R/T. On single lots that really takes a bite out of profit. Down the road I could switch to another brokerage firm for much cheaper fees and just sick with multiple contracts of micros so I guess that could be option 3. I do really like the fact that the micros are much smaller as far as comfort/risk level.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 mtzimmer1 
Legendary Recovering Method Hopper
Upstate NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Broker: TD Ameritrade
Trading: Equities, Treasuries, Gold
 
mtzimmer1's Avatar
 
Posts: 828 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 2,194 given, 1,829 received

I understand where you're coming from on. My broker charges ridiculously high commissions on the micros and it was a deal breaker for me, unfortunately.

Another option to consider is switching to a broker that has stock/etf trading and trading the SPY ETF. TD Ameritrade, E*trade, and Charles Schwab all offer commission free trading now. This would be a good way to trade similar size as 1-2 micro contracts, without the excessive fees AND with great liquidity as SPY is the MOST liquid ETF in the world.

Just my .02!

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to mtzimmer1 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


mtzimmer1 View Post
I understand where you're coming from on. My broker charges ridiculously high commissions on the micros and it was a deal breaker for me, unfortunately.

Another option to consider is switching to a broker that has stock/etf trading and trading the SPY ETF. TD Ameritrade, E*trade, and Charles Schwab all offer commission free trading now. This would be a good way to trade similar size as 1-2 micro contracts, without the excessive fees AND with great liquidity as SPY is the MOST liquid ETF in the world.

Just my .02!

Out of curiosity, can you short spy? I was thinking you could only take long positions unless it was options or futures.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 mtzimmer1 
Legendary Recovering Method Hopper
Upstate NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Broker: TD Ameritrade
Trading: Equities, Treasuries, Gold
 
mtzimmer1's Avatar
 
Posts: 828 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 2,194 given, 1,829 received


techa View Post
Out of curiosity, can you short spy? I was thinking you could only take long positions unless it was options or futures.



You can short if you have a margin-approved account. SPY is very liquid and thus very easy to short.

I quite like TD Ameritrade’s platform thinkorswim, and now with zero commissions it is an excellent opportunity to learn how to trade without paying tons of commissions/fees.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to mtzimmer1 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


mtzimmer1 View Post
You can short if you have a margin-approved account. SPY is very liquid and thus very easy to short.

I quite like TD Ameritrade’s platform thinkorswim, and now with zero commissions it is an excellent opportunity to learn how to trade without paying tons of commissions/fees.

Interesting idea. I'll look into it! Even though I use Infinity Futures, I still do pretty much all of my analysis on TOS. I just never funded my account....yet.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


mtzimmer1 View Post
You can short if you have a margin-approved account. SPY is very liquid and thus very easy to short.

I quite like TD Ameritrade’s platform thinkorswim, and now with zero commissions it is an excellent opportunity to learn how to trade without paying tons of commissions/fees.

My TD Ameritrade account that is.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
 snax 
Legendary Market Wizard
Chicago
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Edge Clear
Trading: MES
 
snax's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,595 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 6,380 given, 6,389 received


techa View Post
Not to sound like an idiot but what does 1R+profit mean?
I can only really manage my trades on Wed-Fri so I think I'll set up on my sim 2 or 3 lots on Mon and Tues and track that for a bit to see how that works. When I first started earlier this year on my sim account I was doing 3 lots and did well, but when I went to real money on the micros I discovered that live trading is MUCH more stressful and I had to limit myself to the one trade a day because I had zero self control. Using the one lot has helped me to wait for the better opportunities. Thanks for the advice!

1R is an R-multiple which is a way of tracking your risk vs reward on a trade. So if you are trading the MES and your stop is 2 points away, your risk per contract is $10.00. If you are trading 2 contracts your total risk would be $20.00, so if price moves in your favor 2 points and you close both contracts to lock in the 2 points per contract, your profit would be $20.00 and that would be 1R, you made as much as you had risked. if you made 4 points per contract you would achieve 2R. Its just a flexible way to track risk-reward across all types of instruments.

I'm really tired today so I hope that makes sense and I didn't mess anything up. Also remember I'm in a similar boat as you and just recently scaled up beyond 1 contract, I just wanted to share my experience with you since I suspect you'll enjoy scaling the MES more than jumping to the ES right now but to each their own, and in the end the final decision is up to you. Best of luck!

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to snax for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


snax View Post
1R is an R-multiple which is a way of tracking your risk vs reward on a trade. So if you are trading the MES and your stop is 2 points away, your risk per contract is $10.00. If you are trading 2 contracts your total risk would be $20.00, so if price moves in your favor 2 points and you close both contracts to lock in the 2 points per contract, your profit would be $20.00 and that would be 1R, you made as much as you had risked. if you made 4 points per contract you would achieve 2R. Its just a flexible way to track risk-reward across all types of instruments.

I'm really tired today so I hope that makes sense and I didn't mess anything up. Also remember I'm in a similar boat as you and just recently scaled up beyond 1 contract, I just wanted to share my experience with you since I suspect you'll enjoy scaling the MES more than jumping to the ES right now but to each their own, and in the end the final decision is up to you. Best of luck!

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation! For now I'm sticking with one micro contract but I will practice on my workdays two lot trades on sim so I can get an idea of it better. Good luck!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Experience: None
Platform: TS, TOS, Ninja(Analytics)
Trading: NQ CL, ES when volatile mrkts
 
paps's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,721 since Oct 2011
Thanks: 2,173 given, 1,710 received

not sure...about micros

however if one can trade 1 lot successfully.....they r made,,,,,why change??????

think about this....

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to paps for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
 MiniP 
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,143 since May 2017
Thanks: 1,104 given, 2,899 received


techa View Post
Mostly due to fees. I am with Infinity Futures which I really like a lot due to their excellent customer service. But micro fees for me are $2.04 R/T. On single lots that really takes a bite out of profit. Down the road I could switch to another brokerage firm for much cheaper fees and just sick with multiple contracts of micros so I guess that could be option 3. I do really like the fact that the micros are much smaller as far as comfort/risk level.

your getting bent over the barrel with those fees I would switch to ninja trader even a free membership would be cheaper then that

https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatrader_futures_commissions.pdf

and check the elite section to see if there are any discounts for switching to ninja

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


MiniP View Post
your getting bent over the barrel with those fees I would switch to ninja trader even a free membership would be cheaper then that

https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatrader_futures_commissions.pdf

and check the elite section to see if there are any discounts for switching to ninja

-P

Ninja Trader is on my short list of ones I would switch to for sure. Just not quite comfortable with a switch just yet.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
 MiniP 
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,143 since May 2017
Thanks: 1,104 given, 2,899 received


techa View Post
Ninja Trader is on my short list of ones I would switch to for sure. Just not quite comfortable with a switch just yet.

the best thing about them is there customer service, the platform it self id give it a 7/10 its good but could be much better. I only use it for futures, and have a very very basic way of trading so if your into coding and all that jazz might want to get another opinion.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


MiniP View Post
the best thing about them is there customer service, the platform it self id give it a 7/10 its good but could be much better. I only use it for futures, and have a very very basic way of trading so if your into coding and all that jazz might want to get another opinion.

-P

Customer service is what has kept me at IF despite the fees. It is beyond excellent IMHO. But NT came in second on my list when I was in my research phase because they were very responsive. Not into coding or anything crazy like that but I do like that you can trade stocks and options on NT as well, so down the road it might be a better fit.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
 MiniP 
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,143 since May 2017
Thanks: 1,104 given, 2,899 received


techa View Post
Customer service is what has kept me at IF despite the fees. It is beyond excellent IMHO. But NT came in second on my list when I was in my research phase because they were very responsive. Not into coding or anything crazy like that but I do like that you can trade stocks and options on NT as well, so down the road it might be a better fit.

I don't know about IF but ninjatrader is semi active on this forum and usually responds fast M-F

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


paps View Post
not sure...about micros

however if one can trade 1 lot successfully.....they r made,,,,,why change??????

think about this....

Unless I've missed something very obvious, I thought the point of advanced trading was multiple lots which = greater profits.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


MiniP View Post
I don't know about IF but ninjatrader is semi active on this forum and usually responds fast M-F

-P

I do see NT in use quite heavily here so that is encouraging.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #26 (permalink)
 CannonTrading   is a Vendor
 
 
CannonTrading's Avatar
 
Posts: 175 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 51 given, 146 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Move to two lots on the MES.
Keep journal
keep accurate track of P&L, if successful I would then move to four lots on the micros and do the same for a few weeks before considering the ES depending on your risk capital etc.

PM with any questions about Cannon Trading (800) 454-9572 (310) 859-9572. Trading commodity futures, forex and options involves substantial risk of loss. The recommendations contained in this post are of opinion only and do not guarantee any profits. These are risky markets and only risk capital should be used. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to CannonTrading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #27 (permalink)
 bothadb 
Pretoria, South Africa
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Jigsaw daytradr, Ninja
Trading: ZN
 
Posts: 1 since Sep 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Moving to the ES might be difficult and potentially demoralising as you can get whipsawed to death...
I suggest you keep building skills and confidence in trading larger lot sizes; and the best way to do that is set some parameters for increasing and decreasing size.. e.g. increase the number of lots you trade (1,2,3,5,7,10,etc..) once you are up say net 15 ticks. if you are down a net 15 ticks then halve your trading size and evaluate why. As a small retail trader on the E-Minis or treasuries (which I prefer) you can make a very comfortable living trading anything above 12-15 lots and scalping a few ticks each trade if you keep your losses very small. and you can generally, in these products, trade a larger number of lots exactly the same way you trade a 1 lot. Keeping the losses small on the ES is not always that easy...
..Good luck..

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to bothadb for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #28 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: RTY, ES, YM, NQ, CL, NG, GC, HG
 
Posts: 60 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 53 given, 179 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

The only effective way to learn trading of futures is to be able to trade a lot size that you can split to 3. Hence, before you even consider moving to full ES contract you will need to master that skill. Your goal should be to learn how to:

1. Identify the entry.
2. Define risk.
3. Take profit on the 1/3 of the position and move the stop to breakeven.
4. Let the trade mature to your 2nd target (take 2/3 off at that point) or let the trade take you out at b/e if market goes against you.
5. Once the 2/3 is taken off at your 2nd target allow your last remaining 1/3 run to the best possible profit.

Learning this skill is essential because it allows you to pay for the trade (remove the 1/3 and get a risk-free trade) and practice the execution of your skill by managing the remaining targets.

Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to Meklon for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #29 (permalink)
 Aurac 
London+United Kingdom
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: eSignal
Broker: InteractiveBrokers
Trading: If it moves...
 
Aurac's Avatar
 
Posts: 34 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 28 given, 61 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Just asking the question....begs the question.

I would go here https://www.vantharp.com/
Thoroughly familiarise yourself with all of the info under FREE RESOURCES.
Then ask yourself the same 2 questions.....
You will be surprised at your answer

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Aurac for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #30 (permalink)
 vPropTrading 
Dublin, Ireland
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation, S5 BookMap,
Broker: Stage Five
Trading: Emini ES, Crude CL
 
Posts: 3 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 13 given, 5 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

To me the most important thing is to record all your trades, and also what happens after you exit them. This way, you can track
a) your success and expectancy on 1 lot (Expectancy = %wins x Avg win size - %losses x Avg Loss size)
b) what would have happened if you had traded 2 lots with 2 targets
c) what would have happened if you had traded 3 lots with 3 targets

This way you can use real trades (on the 1 lot) but also record what would have happened, without any financial risk.

btw - reason for 3 lots (units) is that so many people including Mark Douglas, FT71, PAX, Brett Steenberger etc., while all with different styles, say it is psychologically easier to keep a trade on, once you have taken some small profit and moved the stop on remaining 2 units to BE, or Scratch (=entry)

I hope that helps - bottom line, you learn by doing and making it your own system

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to vPropTrading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
DBVan
Vancouver/Canada
 
 
Posts: 1 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


bobwest View Post
To jump in here, my sense is that you should be careful about wanting to go to "full ES" very soon. The point value in dollar terms is 10 times the size of MES, and that huge additional load on a person's perception of risk (and their actual risk, too) is not something to jump into too quickly.

Maybe after 2 lots of MES, try 3, etc. There's no hurry to go back to full ES values until you really are ready. For example, 5 lots of MES equals half a lot of ES in dollar value. (There will be higher overall comm/fees of course with more contracts.) You can ease into the higher-stakes game, which may be wiser.

Slow steps, taking on additional risk in small increments, will probably work better for many people.

Don't be in a hurry to hit the big time and get rich. It usually doesn't end well.

Bob.

I'd agree with Bob here. If you're successful trading 2 micro contracts, then move up to 3, then 4, then 5. Gradually build up towards 10 before thinking about going to full ES.

DB

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to DBVan for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
John Michigan
Grand Rapids MI
 
 
Posts: 2 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.


Stick with the micros, 3 lots, take first profit with 2, hold runner if conditions continue as you thought, adjust final stop as desired.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to John Michigan for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: nijia trader
Broker: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Trading: ym es
 
forgiven's Avatar
 
Posts: 669 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 155 given, 398 received

no one on here really know how good you trade . you could be doing well because of the current market conditions. then you blow up when the conditions change . or you could be a super star how would we know . i would not leverage up for 12 months of profitable trading.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to forgiven for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
 Henning993 
Osnabrück, Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: AMP
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 21 since Mar 2015
Thanks: 23 given, 36 received

I agree with what others have said in here:
Rather trade several contracts on the MES prior to moving to the ES.

While I don't know your style of trading, trading well with 1 contract is very difficult, because you have only one shot concerning both, entry and exit. That in turn means that you might be hesitant to pull the trigger for the entry (waiting for price to come down just a few ticks more for a long entry, e.g. fading a level...which might never happen and you would then end up missing the trade (unless you chase it); or you get in for the long too high (being a bit impatient) and you could have gotten a much better entry price. Scaling in allows you to partially enter at a higher price and potentially improving your average entry price, should price get lower. And if it doesn't, you are at least in with a partial position.

And scaling out allows you to take partial profits and leaving a runner for potential bigger moves.
With only one contract, where do you exit? If you get too greedy and wait for too high a price and it never gets reached, it might turn around and get back to your entry (or even your SL, if you haven't moved that to break even (BE) or BE+1), if you exit too early, you might leave plenty of money on the table.

I'm not saying that you should necessarily scale in on fade trades (it is certainly not for everyone to add to a position if price goes against you; I just wanted to emphasize that trading with several contracts gives you more flexibility for your entries, too, if you like that style of trading).
But at least scaling out IMHO is very important and I would highly recommend it.

However, as you rightly mentioned, the fees are quite high for MES. (Frankly, I think charging you USD 2.04 RT is outrageous!)
But even with brokers that charge less (and I'm sure most brokers are able to beat USD 2.04), considering that the MES tick value is only 1/10th of the tick value of the ES, it will always be relatively expensive to trade the MES.
So, once you'll have built up the number of contracts on MES and feel confident (and have a big enough account) that you will be able to trade 2 contracts in the ES, I personally would make the switch; simply because it's cheaper to trade it.

Just my 2cents.
Good luck

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Henning993 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
 mayazoro 
tucson
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Charts , Sceeto andTOS
Broker: AMP-Rithmic
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 24 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 34 received

the most important thing that you have to understand and believe in trading in my opinion is The reward to risk ratio,
if you want to be a consisted profitable you really have to look at this, the minimum has to be 2 to 1 do some google search and learn it it will change your trading

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to mayazoro for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received


techa View Post
Ninja Trader is on my short list of ones I would switch to for sure. Just not quite comfortable with a switch just yet.

2.05 seems Very, very expensive try Trade Future for Less R/T is 1,04 - according to their web page.

Best regard TraderMich

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 39 given, 103 received

Unless the commission is way high where you trade (seems it isn't "that much" out of whack relatively speaking) that should be the least of your concerns.

ES is one of the hardest symbols to trade for an inexperienced or fairly new futures trader period. That should be your top concern.

Don't rush things or you might just regret it. When the time is right .....

BTW have you checked if the micro gets a better rate with, potentially at some point, larger size lots?

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to SunTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
 tradepips 
Sacramento, CA USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts
Trading: YM, ES
 
Posts: 95 since Feb 2018
Thanks: 165 given, 56 received

If you decide to go with the free Ninjatrader account, you might want to be sure you understand what is missing in the "free" version. I recently opened a "free" Ninjatrader account. I've found it very difficult to place stop loss and take profit orders, since the free version only allows you to take a position first, and then add the stops after. Also, I have not found a way to adjust the stop orders on the chart after being in a trade (chart trader). Since I am usually in and out of the market very quickly, I've found it impossible to use for trading.

Take a look at their site on the page comparing the 3 licenses and you can see that the free version is missing "Trader +" features. The list includes placing automatic stop losses and take profits, one cancels the other and chart trader abilities. All of which I find essential for trading.

Just wouldn't want you to think you were getting something you could use and find it's useless after you open your account, if you opt for free.

Of course, as the comparison shows, the paid for versions come with "Trader +".

https://ninjatrader.com/LicenseComparison

However, if you just want to demo trade, then if you switch your live license key to simulated license key, you get the "Trader +" abilities.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to tradepips for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
 yloratm 
Cypress, CA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja, InfinityAT, TOS
Trading: ES, NQ, CL, 6E, 6J
 
Posts: 2 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 7 given, 2 received

Stay with micro, but increase lot size. With micro, you can scale in to get better average price with your entry range.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to yloratm for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
 jacopo 
Sedona
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader-Tradestation
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 4 since Mar 2019
Thanks: 2 given, 1 received

I doesn't really matter what product you are trading. The questions... are you trading 2% of your capital. And are you comfortable with risking that.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

Hi Techa.

I am a new guy around here but I have been trading for about 55 years and I have real college degrees in this crap. For full disclosure, other than cash, my trading accounts/portfolios are about 30% futures, 60% options, and the rest stocks (the result of naked puts and for covered calls). I was taught to trade onezies (in anything) until I understood the market (as far as I or any human can) and was making a decent profit. If I am looking at defined risk, I typically spend 1-3% of my overall buying power per trade. If it is undefined risk, up to 6% per trade. I am a huge believer in probabilities, and the central limit theorem. The more times I enter a trade with well designed mechanics, the more the results will, over time, take on a normal distribution. For futures, I traded futures options until I had enough of a handle on it to take the plunge. What I am saying is that onezies have their place, like training wheels. But I never go over 5-6% of my portfolio buying power for any trade. BUT, find a broker that offers portfolio margin.

Good luck.

Tim

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to TCCONDE for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received

This is correct - I would even say risking 2% is at high end 1% risk per trade is much better/safer - If you trading style requires more than one contract MES is an good - otherwise the commission of 1 ES compared to 2 MES should be what decides which one you trade. - If you are new and comming from papertrading and want to start risking real money MES is also good just reading one contract since this keeps your risk at the halfe of one ES contract.

Best regards

TraderMich

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
 Aurac 
London+United Kingdom
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: eSignal
Broker: InteractiveBrokers
Trading: If it moves...
 
Aurac's Avatar
 
Posts: 34 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 28 given, 61 received


jacopo View Post
I doesn't really matter what product you are trading. The questions... are you trading 2% of your capital. And are you comfortable with risking that.

THIS SHOULD BE YOUR STARTING POINT !!!!

Starting with the percentage of capital at risk per trade is a good paradigm.
I would say 2% is still too high. 1% is more conservative.
1% means that it will take you at least 100 trades to lose your capital.
You will learn a lot about yourself in 100 trades...

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Aurac for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


tradepips View Post
If you decide to go with the free Ninjatrader account, you might want to be sure you understand what is missing in the "free" version. I recently opened a "free" Ninjatrader account. I've found it very difficult to place stop loss and take profit orders, since the free version only allows you to take a position first, and then add the stops after. Also, I have not found a way to adjust the stop orders on the chart after being in a trade (chart trader). Since I am usually in and out of the market very quickly, I've found it impossible to use for trading.

Take a look at their site on the page comparing the 3 licenses and you can see that the free version is missing "Trader +" features. The list includes placing automatic stop losses and take profits, one cancels the other and chart trader abilities. All of which I find essential for trading.

Just wouldn't want you to think you were getting something you could use and find it's useless after you open your account, if you opt for free.

Of course, as the comparison shows, the paid for versions come with "Trader +".

https://ninjatrader.com/LicenseComparison

However, if you just want to demo trade, then if you switch your live license key to simulated license key, you get the "Trader +" abilities.

I'm glad you mentioned this! I thought to be honest the "free" version didn't allow you to order live at all, I thought it was just like an extended demo mode. My targets and stops are father out so that could be an option, but I don't imagine me jumping ship from Infinity Futures any time soon despite the high fees. I think I will stick with them until I am comfortably up to 3 contracts.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
 MiniP 
Market Wizard
Columbus OHIO
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES,
 
MiniP's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,143 since May 2017
Thanks: 1,104 given, 2,899 received

you've just got a ton of advice from a ton of different people, before you do anything please evaluate what your doing and do whats best for you. Whats best for me might not work for you.. take your time there is no rush.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


MiniP View Post
you've just got a ton of advice from a ton of different people, before you do anything please evaluate what your doing and do whats best for you. Whats best for me might not work for you.. take your time there is no rush.

-P

I really appreciate all of the feedback. One thing I have observed in this journey is this...

I work in healthcare (CT Technologist) and when I was a student, each tech I worked with had a different way of doing things. The results were the same, just many different ways of approaching the varied patients and studies. As a student, you have to learn each of the techs nuances but once I got hired I had to forge my own path to find what worked for me.

Trading has seems much like this. I've tried to take a little knowledge from here and there from technical analysis to price action, to order execution (and now scaling into multiple contracts) and find what works best for me.

One thing I have decided is sticking with micro for awhile, at least until I can feel very comfortable with 3 contracts. Once I reach that goal, and can fund 10k+ then I'll look at starting full es with one or two contracts.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
 bobwest 
Site Moderator
Sarasota FL
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart, NinjaTrader
Trading: ES, YM
 
bobwest's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,490 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 49,125 given, 21,774 received


MiniP View Post
you've just got a ton of advice from a ton of different people, before you do anything please evaluate what your doing and do whats best for you. Whats best for me might not work for you.. take your time there is no rush.

-P

Great advice. Even if every single thing that was said so far worked very well for the person who said it, it might not work for you at all.

But some of it will. I'm glad you've gotten so many replies. Now you have more to work with. Good luck with all this. This stuff can be fun and rewarding too.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


Aurac View Post
THIS SHOULD BE YOUR STARTING POINT !!!!

Starting with the percentage of capital at risk per trade is a good paradigm.
I would say 2% is still too high. 1% is more conservative.
1% means that it will take you at least 100 trades to lose your capital.
You will learn a lot about yourself in 100 trades...

1% (or less). That has been what's kept me in the game thus far!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
 tradepips 
Sacramento, CA USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Charts
Trading: YM, ES
 
Posts: 95 since Feb 2018
Thanks: 165 given, 56 received


Quoting 
I thought to be honest the "free" version didn't allow you to order live at all, I thought it was just like an extended demo mode.

There is the free demo version that is not connected with any account. You are correct that it does not allow live trading. This "free" version does have Trader + features.

There is also a way to open a live account with ninjatrader that does not require you to buy or lease Ninjatrader. However, you will only be allowed to trade live on the "free" version, which does not have Trader + features.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

Morning everyone.

Always rememebr that everyone has to develop their own way of doing this stuff. Just like I never listen to anyone telling me what I should buy/sell, I developed my own style over many, many years. My first trade was a 14. I researched, I did homework and I fought to make the trade even though parents, their broker, etc said I was crazy. The stock gained over 600% over the next few years and I was put in charge of my parents investing. The only thing that matters to me is that you are making money and are comfortable doing what you are doing. Yes, I will go up to 6% of buying power in undefined risk trades. That doesn't mean you should. Maybe 2% is better for you. Maybe you are only comfortable with defined risk trades. Only you know that. And what we all do should only say that there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Best wishes,

Tim

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to TCCONDE for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #51 (permalink)
 Gianni78bari 
Bari, Italy
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 80 since May 2018
Thanks: 109 given, 43 received

I was wondering if the numbers of lots could dipend on what's going on in the market. In a day with a tight trading range I would enter with less contracts and so set less target profit. The opposite in a trending day
I don't know if this make sense for you.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #52 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 39 given, 103 received


techa View Post
I really appreciate all of the feedback. One thing I have observed in this journey is this...

I work in healthcare (CT Technologist) and when I was a student, each tech I worked with had a different way of doing things. The results were the same, just many different ways of approaching the varied patients and studies. As a student, you have to learn each of the techs nuances but once I got hired I had to forge my own path to find what worked for me.

Trading has seems much like this. I've tried to take a little knowledge from here and there from technical analysis to price action, to order execution (and now scaling into multiple contracts) and find what works best for me.

One thing I have decided is sticking with micro for awhile, at least until I can feel very comfortable with 3 contracts. Once I reach that goal, and can fund 10k+ then I'll look at starting full es with one or two contracts.

Think you are missing the main point that so many have mentioned.

The number of contracts (standard, mini, micro whatever) is not what is important. The percentage of your trading capital exposed per trade, and in total if other markets are traded simultaneously, is what matters most.

I agree with the range of 1-2% limit. Which would mean a 10k account allows for $100-$200 of leeway. Trading ES doesn't leave much room for slippage/move against you before needing to exit regardless of trading 1 or 2 and forget 3 or more contracts. Though that same amount is plenty for micros. Seems a no-brainer which to go with and stay with until trading capital is much higher no matter how many of this or that.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #53 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

Hello to all.

The whole point here is that even though the market is taking off, doesn't mean what you are looking at is. Today, the market is up, and oil tanks. You never know. Buying more than you can afford will invariably end in losses. Personally, I do fairlly well, but I still have losses. Most of my trades, viewed individually, have a chance of success of about 70%. Meaning that 30% will be losers. Which 30%? Nobody can tell that. If that 30% were the trades that I went all in because the market looked good, I'd probably be an overall loser. Do yourself a favor and develop a trading plan that works for you. The plan should be mechanical. meaning that you leave all of your opinions, whims, and emotions out of it. Every trade fits the mold. I think there is more money lost because of emotions than anything else. Then I use a buying power limit for every trade. If it tanks and I lose, so be it. I make it a learning experience and move on, but I do not lose half of my account either.

All the best
Tim

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to TCCONDE for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #54 (permalink)
 GeorgeW 
London United Kingdom
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: 6E
 
Posts: 36 since Dec 2014
Thanks: 3 given, 21 received


techa View Post
Not quite ready for this next step but I'm getting closer and wondered what is the best next step in my live trading plan:

A) begin trading 2 lots
B) keep with the one lot but start full ES

Please feel free to add other suggestions if you have them as well as a recommendation of how soon to segue into phase two.

Hello,
View Futures.io Webinar CME Micro-Eminis by FuturesTrader71 from 2019-06-12 Youtube, where it is explained why trading in 1 lot is difficult and he recommends trading in 3 lots.

Good Luck!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #55 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Experience: None
Platform: TS, TOS, Ninja(Analytics)
Trading: NQ CL, ES when volatile mrkts
 
paps's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,721 since Oct 2011
Thanks: 2,173 given, 1,710 received


techa View Post
Unless I've missed something very obvious, I thought the point of advanced trading was multiple lots which = greater profits.

there is no concept like that..... money in the bag is money in the bag,,,,,

dont wish to argue on a public forum,,,,but if u feel good n comfy with mulitple lots....u should no doubt do that

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #56 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

Sure. Trade three lots. Three times the profits. Three times the fun. Hey, great. But we are all operating in a vacuum here. You have to give thought to your account size. The system of taking into account your buying power allows for the inevitable losses we all have. Three lots of X could be anything, large or small. I would never consider a trading plan that just arbitrarily assigns lots of three as the go to size for everything, regardless. It might be easier than thinking, of that I have no doubt. But no one has ever said that this is supposed to be easy. Personally, I want a LOT of trades on at the same time and that means buying power. The more trades I have on. and the more diverse my portfolio, the less I am rattled by market sell-offs.

And then fate steps in and takes a hand...

Best of luck to all,
Tim

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TCCONDE for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #57 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


SunTrader View Post
Think you are missing the main point that so many have mentioned.

The number of contracts (standard, mini, micro whatever) is not what is important. The percentage of your trading capital exposed per trade, and in total if other markets are traded simultaneously, is what matters most.

I agree with the range of 1-2% limit. Which would mean a 10k account allows for $100-$200 of leeway. Trading ES doesn't leave much room for slippage/move against you before needing to exit regardless of trading 1 or 2 and forget 3 or more contracts. Though that same amount is plenty for micros. Seems a no-brainer which to go with and stay with until trading capital is much higher no matter how many of this or that.

Thank you for the gentle reminder. I do want to be super conservative because I have seen how very quickly things can get ugly. You are so right. Even on $10,000 that only gives me 8 ticks on a one lot so I don't expect to move up to ES for quite awhile (if ever since my trading style is not scalping so my target and stop are larger). I am trying to be content to stick with my one lot micro and learn as much as I can until I can increase my capital and only advance to 3 lot while maintaining the 1% range.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #58 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

Good morning.

To all: For most of the advanced traders out there, we see it as a case of an analysis of risk/reward on a trade and a desire for efficient use of our account buying power leading us to a potentially larger trade which in turn means a greater number of contracts. Advanced traders probably do trade more contracts but we also probably have the buying power to do that. Almost every trade I enter is the result of 4-5 calculations and it starts with risk/reward. The last calculation is number of contracts/shares/whatever.

As always, best of luck to all,

Tim

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #59 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 39 given, 103 received


techa View Post
Thank you for the gentle reminder. I do want to be super conservative because I have seen how very quickly things can get ugly. You are so right. Even on $10,000 that only gives me 8 ticks on a one lot so I don't expect to move up to ES for quite awhile (if ever since my trading style is not scalping so my target and stop are larger). I am trying to be content to stick with my one lot micro and learn as much as I can until I can increase my capital and only advance to 3 lot while maintaining the 1% range.

There ya go.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #60 (permalink)
 snax 
Legendary Market Wizard
Chicago
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Edge Clear
Trading: MES
 
snax's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,595 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 6,380 given, 6,389 received


SunTrader View Post
Think you are missing the main point that so many have mentioned.

The number of contracts (standard, mini, micro whatever) is not what is important. The percentage of your trading capital exposed per trade, and in total if other markets are traded simultaneously, is what matters most.

I agree with the range of 1-2% limit. Which would mean a 10k account allows for $100-$200 of leeway. Trading ES doesn't leave much room for slippage/move against you before needing to exit regardless of trading 1 or 2 and forget 3 or more contracts. Though that same amount is plenty for micros. Seems a no-brainer which to go with and stay with until trading capital is much higher no matter how many of this or that.

I understand what you are saying @SunTrader, but I think I have to politely disagree with your comment about the number of contracts not being important.

I think it is important, and managing multiple contracts is a completely different skill-set than managing 1 contract. Knowing when to lean into a setup with more contracts is one skill, knowing how to maximize your risk/reward with multiple contracts is a whole other skill. How many should you hold for 1R, how many runners, should you scalp the majority of your position? Should you swing the majority of your position? By what logic do you come to this conclusion?

This is what I was meaning to get across by my original post, and I think I assumed that risk-management at the account-level was already taken care of, but as others have pointed out, maybe I shouldn't assume that, this is a good point.

Cheers!

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to snax for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #61 (permalink)
 4tison 
PhuKet Island / Thailand
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart NT
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 124 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 123 given, 46 received


MiniP View Post
your getting bent over the barrel with those fees I would switch to ninja trader even a free membership would be cheaper then that

https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatrader_futures_commissions.pdf

and check the elite section to see if there are any discounts for switching to ninja

-P

thx

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #62 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received


snax View Post
I understand what you are saying @SunTrader, but I think I have to politely disagree with your comment about the number of contracts not being important.

I think it is important, and managing multiple contracts is a completely different skill-set than managing 1 contract. Knowing when to lean into a setup with more contracts is one skill, knowing how to maximize your risk/reward with multiple contracts is a whole other skill. How many should you hold for 1R, how many runners, should you scalp the majority of your position? Should you swing the majority of your position? By what logic do you come to this conclusion?

This is what I was meaning to get across by my original post, and I think I assumed that risk-management at the account-level was already taken care of, but as others have pointed out, maybe I shouldn't assume that, this is a good point.

Cheers!

Snax, I think you are confusing things a little - What SunTrader is sayin is one should never risk more than 1-2 % of the trading capital - I pesonally would say max 1% - Knowing you entry price, your stop loss and you trading capital you can calculate number of contracts. If this turn out to less than 1 contract skip the trade.

What you are talking about is when to close one or more of the contracts and let the other ones run to some higher profit level, but this is assuming that you make a profit - if the trade turns against you this aspect never come into play. For any trader to have a chance to be a trader in the long run your maximum loss per trader should be respected and not bended to have some ways of dealing with wish full thinking profit.

Having said above Micros ( provided they have the liqidity - which MES has) is more flexiable in this respect, and you can optimize better.

TraderMich

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #63 (permalink)
 snax 
Legendary Market Wizard
Chicago
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Edge Clear
Trading: MES
 
snax's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,595 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 6,380 given, 6,389 received


SunTrader View Post
Think you are missing the main point that so many have mentioned.

The number of contracts (standard, mini, micro whatever) is not what is important. The percentage of your trading capital exposed per trade, and in total if other markets are traded simultaneously, is what matters most.

I agree with the range of 1-2% limit. Which would mean a 10k account allows for $100-$200 of leeway. Trading ES doesn't leave much room for slippage/move against you before needing to exit regardless of trading 1 or 2 and forget 3 or more contracts. Though that same amount is plenty for micros. Seems a no-brainer which to go with and stay with until trading capital is much higher no matter how many of this or that.


TraderMich View Post
Snax, I think you are confusing things a little - What SunTrader is sayin is one should never risk more than 1-2 % of the trading capital - I pesonally would say max 1% - Knowing you entry price, your stop loss and you trading capital you can calculate number of contracts. If this turn out to less than 1 contract skip the trade.

What you are talking about is when to close one or more of the contracts and let the other ones run to some higher profit level, but this is assuming that you make a profit - if the trade turns against you this aspect never come into play. For any trader to have a chance to be a trader in the long run your maximum loss per trader should be respected and not bended to have some ways of dealing with wish full thinking profit.

Having said above Micros ( provided they have the liqidity - which MES has) is more flexiable in this respect, and you can optimize better.

TraderMich

agreed, the 1-2% trading capital is what I was referring to as risk-management at the account-level, and I should have made a better effort to clarify this. If you are considering trading the /ES then I assumed that a reasonable protective-stop is within 1-2% for some number of contracts, (again, i shouldn't have assumed) and if you translate to multiple /MES contracts there is a lot of space to scale up due to the 1/10 size. You can always scale down to 1 contract in order to reach a far-away protective-stop in order to preserve the amount of risk for a trade you want to take.

Agree that you should skip the trade if the risk is too great, and again, I didn't mean to make an argument about that, I only wanted to point out that managing multiple contracts is a whole new problem to solve once you've traded 1 contract at a time in the past.

Cheers!

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to snax for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #64 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received


snax View Post
agreed, the 1-2% trading capital is what I was referring to as risk-management at the account-level, and I should have made a better effort to clarify this. If you are considering trading the /ES then I assumed that a reasonable protective-stop is within 1-2% for some number of contracts, (again, i shouldn't have assumed) and if you translate to multiple /MES contracts there is a lot of space to scale up due to the 1/10 size. You can always scale down to 1 contract in order to reach a far-away protective-stop in order to preserve the amount of risk for a trade you want to take.

Agree that you should skip the trade if the risk is too great, and again, I didn't mean to make an argument about that, I only wanted to point out that managing multiple contracts is a whole new problem to solve once you've traded 1 contract at a time in the past.

Cheers!

Snax- Ok - Fine I think we "On the same page" - The difference appers to on our trading style - I do nor scale out when i profit, but close all open contract on a specific market at the same time - But as said the is a matter of trading style, but how one take profit is Happy Trouble compared to Stop Losses

TraderMich

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #65 (permalink)
LadiesAnGentlemen
Berlin
 
 
Posts: 4 since Oct 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 5 received

I finally become profitable when I started to trade more contracts.

It is almost impossible to pinpoint consistently entries and exits.

When I gave up to achieve this and started top scale in and out of positions, things finally changed

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to LadiesAnGentlemen for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #66 (permalink)
 CannonTrading   is a Vendor
 
 
CannonTrading's Avatar
 
Posts: 175 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 51 given, 146 received


LadiesAnGentlemen View Post
I finally become profitable when I started to trade more contracts.

It is almost impossible to pinpoint consistently entries and exits.

When I gave up to achieve this and started top scale in and out of positions, things finally changed

I agree! This is where the MICROS can come in handy as well.
If you are able to trade multiple of 2 or 3 it may help some. For me personally once I take profit on the first one, it allows me to be more relaxed, manage the trade properly and see how much can the last contract run for etc.

On the flip side, the stops/ money management part has to make sense.

PM with any questions about Cannon Trading (800) 454-9572 (310) 859-9572. Trading commodity futures, forex and options involves substantial risk of loss. The recommendations contained in this post are of opinion only and do not guarantee any profits. These are risky markets and only risk capital should be used. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to CannonTrading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #67 (permalink)
 wldman 
Market Wizard
Chicago Illinois USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Broker: IB, ToS
Trading: /ES, US Equities/Options
 
wldman's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,342 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 1,978 given, 8,869 received

@techa

IMO at this point in the game you are working on your psychology not your trading method. Take great steps to protect you positive frame of mind and continue to build momentum and confidence.

The fee structure does suck, but it wont kill you. Additionally there is a bit of conditioning involved when the p/l dial spins at a furious pace. Perhaps if/when 5 MES becomes routine (trade a 2 and a 3 not 5 ones) your next step would be one ES on the tight metric from your multi lot approach.

The important item IMO is becoming comfortable with increased profit/risk AND defending your capital mercilessly.

All the best.

-Dan

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to wldman for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #68 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


Meklon View Post
The only effective way to learn trading of futures is to be able to trade a lot size that you can split to 3. Hence, before you even consider moving to full ES contract you will need to master that skill. Your goal should be to learn how to:

1. Identify the entry.
2. Define risk.
3. Take profit on the 1/3 of the position and move the stop to breakeven.
4. Let the trade mature to your 2nd target (take 2/3 off at that point) or let the trade take you out at b/e if market goes against you.
5. Once the 2/3 is taken off at your 2nd target allow your last remaining 1/3 run to the best possible profit.

Learning this skill is essential because it allows you to pay for the trade (remove the 1/3 and get a risk-free trade) and practice the execution of your skill by managing the remaining targets.

I copied your suggestion to my trading journal. This is what I used to do back when I started out on sim with ES. I felt like a Rockstar. Then when I put real money in, I saw how very differently I reacted to losses. It has been a winding road to get to the place where I can see me doing this in the near future with micros. For now I am saving to increase my funded account and continue practicing with one lots on my entries. Likely I will move up to two lots initially so I can condition myself to not take the bigger hits too personally. But your suggestion is where I would like to see myself eventually progress. Then after gaining confidence with that, to eventually go with 6 lots broken into thirds.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #69 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


TCCONDE View Post
Morning everyone.

Always rememebr that everyone has to develop their own way of doing this stuff. Just like I never listen to anyone telling me what I should buy/sell, I developed my own style over many, many years. My first trade was a 14. I researched, I did homework and I fought to make the trade even though parents, their broker, etc said I was crazy. The stock gained over 600% over the next few years and I was put in charge of my parents investing. The only thing that matters to me is that you are making money and are comfortable doing what you are doing. Yes, I will go up to 6% of buying power in undefined risk trades. That doesn't mean you should. Maybe 2% is better for you. Maybe you are only comfortable with defined risk trades. Only you know that. And what we all do should only say that there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Best wishes,

Tim

My hats off to you for figuring this out at such a young age and that your parents allowed you to try even though they were skeptical. My risk level is nowhere near 6% but that's because I'm a control freak who hates to lose money (funny that I picked futures, huh?). It has been an incredible journey so far! Best of luck to you!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #70 (permalink)
 Meklon 
New York, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: RTY, ES, YM, NQ, CL, NG, GC, HG
 
Posts: 60 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 53 given, 179 received


techa View Post
I copied your suggestion to my trading journal. This is what I used to do back when I started out on sim with ES. I felt like a Rockstar. Then when I put real money in, I saw how very differently I reacted to losses. It has been a winding road to get to the place where I can see me doing this in the near future with micros. For now I am saving to increase my funded account and continue practicing with one lots on my entries. Likely I will move up to two lots initially so I can condition myself to not take the bigger hits too personally. But your suggestion is where I would like to see myself eventually progress. Then after gaining confidence with that, to eventually go with 6 lots broken into thirds.

Well...I am sure if you follow this path gradually it will take you to the place where your mental focus is comfortable to trade multiple contracts. One more advice for you if / when you will get to the 6 lot trades: When you have multiple contracts that you can scale out in 3rds (i.e. trading 6 or 9), I would recommend to adjust your profit taking pattern as following - on the 1st target take 4 out of 6 off and move your stop to break-even or one tick below. Then let your 2 remaining contracts run to the 2nd target and take another one off. The last one will be a runner. This way you profit on 65% of your initial position and reduce the risk immediately still having paid for a cup of coffee even if the trade goes against you.

Cheers,

Mek.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Meklon for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #71 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


TCCONDE View Post
Hi Techa.

I am a new guy around here but I have been trading for about 55 years and I have real college degrees in this crap. For full disclosure, other than cash, my trading accounts/portfolios are about 30% futures, 60% options, and the rest stocks (the result of naked puts and for covered calls). I was taught to trade onezies (in anything) until I understood the market (as far as I or any human can) and was making a decent profit. If I am looking at defined risk, I typically spend 1-3% of my overall buying power per trade. If it is undefined risk, up to 6% per trade. I am a huge believer in probabilities, and the central limit theorem. The more times I enter a trade with well designed mechanics, the more the results will, over time, take on a normal distribution. For futures, I traded futures options until I had enough of a handle on it to take the plunge. What I am saying is that onezies have their place, like training wheels. But I never go over 5-6% of my portfolio buying power for any trade. BUT, find a broker that offers portfolio margin.

Good luck.

Tim

I'm still working FT at this point and really only have 3 days a week to practice. I started trading micro futures after doing spectacularly with my sim account for a couple of months and then slowly took a painful beating until I forced myself to stick with one contract to work on my entries. Most of my account is still intact and I've learned a lot, the biggest lesson is that losses are a part of it and if I stick to my plan I can eventually progress to multiple contracts. This forum has been invaluable! Thank you for your suggestions.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #72 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


Meklon View Post
Well...I am sure if you follow this path gradually it will take you to the place where your mental focus is comfortable to trade multiple contracts. One more advice for you if / when you will get to the 6 lot trades: When you have multiple contracts that you can scale out in 3rds (i.e. trading 6 or 9), I would recommend to adjust your profit taking patter as following - on the 1st target take 4 out of 6 off and move your stop to break-even or one tick below. Then let your 2 remaining contracts run to the 2nd target and take another one off. The last one will be a runner. This way you profit on 65% of your initial position and reduce the risk immediately still having paid for a cup of coffee even if the trade goes against you.

Cheers,

Mek.

Another copy and paste into my trading journal! Thank you for all of your advice!!!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #73 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received


4tison View Post
thx


If you are going to change - do consider Trade Futures 4 Less as you broker, their highest price is 0.20 USD lower than Ninja traders lowest price i.e. 0.4 per R/T per ES contract - you get discount if you trader more than 2000 contracts per month. Day trading margins is the same.

I have been with them for several years - never any problem always good service - So if you are going to change go for the lowest price. - If you trade many contracts, they will also help you in getting membership on the relevant exchanges - then the commission savings really becomes significant.

https://tradefutures4less.com/commissions/

TraderMich

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #74 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


TraderMich View Post
If you are going to change - do consider Trade Futures 4 Less as you broker, their highest price is 0.20 USD lower than Ninja traders lowest price i.e. 0.4 per R/T per ES contract - you get discount if you trader more than 2000 contracts per month. Day trading margins is the same.

I have been with them for several years - never any problem always good service - So if you are going to change go for the lowest price. - If you trade many contracts, they will also help you in getting membership on the relevant exchanges - then the commission savings really becomes significant.

https://tradefutures4less.com/commissions/

TraderMich

I will check them out and definitely keep them in mind!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #75 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received


techa View Post
I will check them out and definitely keep them in mind!

Ok Good - They have 28 different trading platforms, some many opportunities, I personally use Sierra Charts with data feed from CQG. - This cost 0.05 USD per contract so 0.1 USD per R/T

TraderMich

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #76 (permalink)
 TCCONDE 
San Francisco, California, USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tastyworks
Broker: Tastyworks
Trading: CL, ZW, ZS, ZC, ES, NG, Smalls
 
TCCONDE's Avatar
 
Posts: 18 since Sep 2019
Thanks: 0 given, 43 received

All:
What I am hearing is that if you can't trade multiple lots. why bother? That's great but many people, maybe the majority of people, have accounts that can only trade onezies. To those that have these small accounts, I have an idea for you. Small accounts have a difficult time trading many products. But you need to trade it to learn how it works, where the potholes are and how to avoid them. My thought? Do like I do and trade options in futures. If noithiing else, you can learn different products and trade ES and NQ, or even ZW and ZC and many others. Options on futures are a great training ground and I still do it. You can throw on defined risk trades (butterflies, condors, verticals, whatever) until you get your feet on the ground and make good money in the process. The other day, I sold a strangle in Natural Gas. Nice and wide. On Nov 15, assuming it stays between my strikes, I pocket a good hunk of change. Can't afford a strangle, do an iron condor. All I am saying is that you do not have to trade multiple futures contracts right off. Gain experience with options on futures and when you are really ready, BLAST OFF. One of the maxims of trading that I have nailed above my monitor array is NEVER CHASE A TRADE. I would amend that to NEVER CHASE SUCCESS. You keep trading and learning and success will find you.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TCCONDE for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #77 (permalink)
 CannonTrading   is a Vendor
 
 
CannonTrading's Avatar
 
Posts: 175 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 51 given, 146 received


Meklon View Post
Well...I am sure if you follow this path gradually it will take you to the place where your mental focus is comfortable to trade multiple contracts. One more advice for you if / when you will get to the 6 lot trades: When you have multiple contracts that you can scale out in 3rds (i.e. trading 6 or 9), I would recommend to adjust your profit taking pattern as following - on the 1st target take 4 out of 6 off and move your stop to break-even or one tick below. Then let your 2 remaining contracts run to the 2nd target and take another one off. The last one will be a runner. This way you profit on 65% of your initial position and reduce the risk immediately still having paid for a cup of coffee even if the trade goes against you.

Cheers,

Mek.

I agree!! if one can do so based on risk capital and mental discipline, I personally think it is an excellent advise.

I wrote the following a few years back on the topic:

Trade management is more important than Market Analysis….

I have done this so many times before, my colleagues tell me when it happens to them as well as some of my clients….You have the perfect read on the market. The market actually ends up doing what you thought it would and in a BIG way…yet somehow you managed to LOSE money despite your perfect analysis. To me this is sometimes more frustrating than having a bad losing day.

What happened?
Poor trade management, that’s what happened.
Yes, reading the market well is a much needed quality if you plan on making money rather than contributing donations to the market but more important is how you manage the trade / position once you read the market. Much easier said than done, especially after the fact but here are some tips that I am hoping will assist you in the next time you have a good market read.
By the way, the reason to this quick trading tidbit is the stock market rally we saw today in stock indices. Both my colleague and I “had the right analysis” on this possible rally yet he managed to lose and get stopped out twice while I took a small piece of the rally BUT not nearly as much as I should have….
1. You don’t have a crystal ball. To think you can buy an ES contract in this volatility and use a 2 point stop in hopes of making 20 points profit is a very low probability event…you would need to buy it at the PEREFECT time for this to happen. Point is, with higher volatility you need to use WIDER stops to give yourself a chance. That may mean using SMALLER trade size.
2. If you are able to, share your read with another trader, it may provide you with a better perspective just by sharing.
3. If you think there is room for a big move or what we call a “runner” - be prepared to for the pullbacks. Use multiple time frames to gain a better perspective and hang in there for the big move, if this is what you think can happen.
4. If you have enough risk capital, try to use multiple contracts, example buying 2 rather than 1. Taking profit on the first part of the position will help you relax and look at what the market is really telling you rather than what you would like it to say. It helps reduce both the fear and the greed.
5. “Plan your trade, trade your plan”
Again these are just some short pointers, written quickly after today’s session in hopes of helping you when you face a similar situation.

PM with any questions about Cannon Trading (800) 454-9572 (310) 859-9572. Trading commodity futures, forex and options involves substantial risk of loss. The recommendations contained in this post are of opinion only and do not guarantee any profits. These are risky markets and only risk capital should be used. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to CannonTrading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #78 (permalink)
 4tison 
PhuKet Island / Thailand
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart NT
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 124 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 123 given, 46 received


LadiesAnGentlemen View Post
I finally become profitable when I started to trade more contracts.

It is almost impossible to pinpoint consistently entries and exits.

When I gave up to achieve this and started top scale in and out of positions, things finally changed

I am very interested in what you are saying which is really great.

Would it be convenient at all for you to show us any of your trading screens,
while you are accomplishing the profitable results from your description et al.

You need not post any summary results of any of your trade, K?

Just a live trading screen shot would suffice. Many thx. 4tison@gmail.com

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #79 (permalink)
 ninjus 
Chiang Mai Thailand
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Seirra Chart
Broker: Optimus + Rithmic
Trading: MNQ
 
ninjus's Avatar
 
Posts: 723 since Jun 2017
Thanks: 1,165 given, 2,301 received


TCCONDE View Post
All:
What I am hearing is that if you can't trade multiple lots. why bother? That's great but many people, maybe the majority of people, have accounts that can only trade onezies. To those that have these small accounts, I have an idea for you. Small accounts have a difficult time trading many products. But you need to trade it to learn how it works, where the potholes are and how to avoid them. My thought? Do like I do and trade options in futures. If noithiing else, you can learn different products and trade ES and NQ, or even ZW and ZC and many others. Options on futures are a great training ground and I still do it. You can throw on defined risk trades (butterflies, condors, verticals, whatever) until you get your feet on the ground and make good money in the process. The other day, I sold a strangle in Natural Gas. Nice and wide. On Nov 15, assuming it stays between my strikes, I pocket a good hunk of change. Can't afford a strangle, do an iron condor. All I am saying is that you do not have to trade multiple futures contracts right off. Gain experience with options on futures and when you are really ready, BLAST OFF. One of the maxims of trading that I have nailed above my monitor array is NEVER CHASE A TRADE. I would amend that to NEVER CHASE SUCCESS. You keep trading and learning and success will find you.

Who do you use for your options futures trading may I ask?

Sent using the futures.io mobile app


Marcus Aurelius
"Not to assume it's impossible because you find it hard. But to recognize that if it's humanly possible, you can do it too"

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #80 (permalink)
 xplor79 
Buenos Aires, Argentina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 10 since Feb 2019
Thanks: 33 given, 7 received


CannonTrading View Post
1. You don’t have a crystal ball. To think you can buy an ES contract in this volatility and use a 2 point stop in hopes of making 20 points profit is a very low probability event…you would need to buy it at the PEREFECT time for this to happen. Point is, with higher volatility you need to use WIDER stops to give yourself a chance. That may mean using SMALLER trade size.

Hi there,

Just wondering, how many points for a stop loss would you consider wide enough with this volatility?

Thanks!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #81 (permalink)
lasvegasbrad
LAS VEGAS NEVADA USA
 
 
Posts: 3 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 8 given, 0 received

Don't suffer from 'all or nothing' trading. The correct answer is to add in, and ease out on movement.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #82 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received

If imposible to discucus SL and SP size without knowing what time frame you are trading on. I most use 30 sec. time frame and for most contracts ( Russle, Dow, Gold; Crude oil ) I use 15 tick SL ( 3,75 points on ES mini)

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TraderMich for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #83 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 39 given, 103 received

Correct. Not to mention the particular trader's risk tolerance.

Any other answer is making way too many assumptions.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to SunTrader for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #84 (permalink)
 TraderMich 
Copenhagen + Denmark
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: Broker: Trade Future 4 Less. Data Feed/Order routing: CQG
Trading: DAX Future
 
TraderMich's Avatar
 
Posts: 72 since Oct 2018
Thanks: 44 given, 56 received

Yes, Correct but the risk tolerance should maximum be 1% of the total trading capital, preferable less then 1%.

This means - the the case of 3,75 points (15 tick) = 12,5*15= 187,5 USD + 2* 1,69 ( commission) = approx. 19.100 USD is needed in capital per ES Mini or 1.910 USD per ES Micro. - If the SL is more or less the math changes accordingly.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #85 (permalink)
 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Infinity Futures, TOS
Trading: ES, MES
 
Posts: 75 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 75 given, 91 received


wldman View Post
@techa

IMO at this point in the game you are working on your psychology not your trading method. Take great steps to protect you positive frame of mind and continue to build momentum and confidence.

The fee structure does suck, but it wont kill you. Additionally there is a bit of conditioning involved when the p/l dial spins at a furious pace. Perhaps if/when 5 MES becomes routine (trade a 2 and a 3 not 5 ones) your next step would be one ES on the tight metric from your multi lot approach.

The important item IMO is becoming comfortable with increased profit/risk AND defending your capital mercilessly.

All the best.

-Dan

I think you are totally right. Looking back, it is almost embarrassing to think I even started this thread with the idea I might be ready for ES. I have much to learn! Holding tight to my capital and live testing in combines showed me how much psychology plays into it (making me question my strategy and deviate from my rules). Thanks for your input!

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to techa for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #86 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
 
Posts: 149 since Nov 2018
Thanks: 39 given, 103 received


TraderMich View Post
Yes, Correct but the risk tolerance should maximum be 1% of the total trading capital, preferable less then 1%...

If you are replying to my post (?) please read my post again.

If you are not replying to my post it is because you never read it in the first place.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #87 (permalink)
 CannonTrading   is a Vendor
 
 
CannonTrading's Avatar
 
Posts: 175 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 51 given, 146 received


xplor79 View Post
Hi there,

Just wondering, how many points for a stop loss would you consider wide enough with this volatility?

Thanks!

I wish I had a magic formula to share but I dont :-)

It depends on the trading method, expected profit target and more.

I like to use either stops based SR levels, perhaps using the PSAR, perhaps using Bollinger bands...

If your method looks for very small profit then its a diff. story, if your method looks for larger profits/ swings intraday you can also look at the daily ATR and use a % of that daily avg true range as that will adjust to volatility.
You can read more here.

PM with any questions about Cannon Trading (800) 454-9572 (310) 859-9572. Trading commodity futures, forex and options involves substantial risk of loss. The recommendations contained in this post are of opinion only and do not guarantee any profits. These are risky markets and only risk capital should be used. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to CannonTrading for this post:


futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout Emini and Emicro Index > Asking Suggestions On Next Step After Profit With One Lot Trading-Micros


Last Updated on January 27, 2020


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

NEW BlackBird Features + FOREX Support w/Jeremy Tang @ SharkIndicators

Elite only
 

Our 12-year anniversary w/ $$,$$$ prizes (check soon)

June
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts