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[ES account size] How realistic... ?


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[ES account size] How realistic... ?

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  #1 (permalink)
 davidautentico 
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Again a newbie question from a forex trader...

How realistic is trading 1 e-mini contract with $25k ? using 20 ticks stops..

thanks

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  #3 (permalink)
 ignacio90 
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Hi @davidautentico,

Very Realistic. A conservative way to trade is 1 contract for every 10.000 dollars you have in your account. With a 20 tics, you are risking 250 dollars in every trade, that means a 1% of your account. Realistic.

Good luck

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  #4 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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davidautentico View Post
Again a newbie question from a forex trader...

How realistic is trading 1 e-mini contract with $25k ? using 20 ticks stops..

thanks


reasonable!

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  #5 (permalink)
 Tymbeline 
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davidautentico View Post
How realistic is trading 1 e-mini contract with $25k ? using 20 ticks stops..


That seems pefectly realistic to me, and in fact is probably a pretty good guideline for a relatively safe minimum.

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  #6 (permalink)
 IzhakHaim 
white plains new york
 
 
Posts: 66 since Apr 2016

If you do not know to trade, the 1 contract with $25K will just let you lose your money very slowly over a long period of time.

If you know to trade, its a bad move to have so much funds available and not to utilize it for generating real profits. With this money you should be able to trade at least 10 contracts (If you know what you are doing...)

If you just want to play for a few dollars up and down a day, you do not need to freeze at your broker $25K.

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  #7 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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IzhakHaim View Post
With this money you should be able to trade at least 10 contracts (If you know what you are doing...)


wow

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  #8 (permalink)
mangolassi
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IzhakHaim View Post
If you do not know to trade, the 1 contract with $25K will just let you lose your money very slowly over a long period of time.

If you know to trade, its a bad move to have so much funds available and not to utilize it for generating real profits. With this money you should be able to trade at least 10 contracts (If you know what you are doing...)

If you just want to play for a few dollars up and down a day, you do not need to freeze at your broker $25K.

You're ridiculous, and clearly have no idea about risk or money management. $25K is "so much funds"?? On what planet? A 20 tick stop with 10 contracts is $2500. 4 losing trades (which can happen with even perfect entries and read of market context) and you've lost almost half your account. I cringed when I read your post.

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  #9 (permalink)
 IzhakHaim 
white plains new york
 
 
Posts: 66 since Apr 2016

In trading, we get paid to take risk. To play we just go out to the play ground....

$25K is a nice amount to use as raw material to generate real money. With 10 contracts a trade, generating only 1 point a day, he can add 2% to his equity daily.

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  #10 (permalink)
mangolassi
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IzhakHaim View Post
In trading, we get paid to take risk. To play we just go out to the play ground....

$25K is a nice amount to use as raw material to generate real money. With 10 contracts a trade, generating only 1 point a day, he can add 2% to his equity daily.

You have no idea what you're even talking about.

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  #11 (permalink)
 IzhakHaim 
white plains new york
 
 
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With your SL of 20 ticks you should looking to TP of 40 ticks. When was the last time you saw an 8 points move on ES that you can grab??? dreams don't make money. Wake up. Have a 2:1 ration, win 2 point, lose 1 point and be happy.

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  #12 (permalink)
 HoopyTrading 
Boston, MA
 
 
Posts: 264 since Apr 2014


IzhakHaim View Post
If you do not know to trade, the 1 contract with $25K will just let you lose your money very slowly over a long period of time.

If you know to trade, its a bad move to have so much funds available and not to utilize it for generating real profits. With this money you should be able to trade at least 10 contracts (If you know what you are doing...)

If you just want to play for a few dollars up and down a day, you do not need to freeze at your broker $25K.

From what I can tell, many brokers would not allow a trader with a $25K account to get into a 10 ct position in ES, since the initial margin requirement for ES as set by the CME is currently $4,620 per ct.

So with $25K, the most you could enter the position for would be 5 cts. That requires only $23,100.

I agree with the others...1ct with 25K is very doable. Try sticking with that until you can double your initial account balance. Then stick with it some more on 1ct and double the original amount again. When at 75K, try 2ct? A bit conservative, yes. *shrugs*

Truly however, the decision on when to start exposing your account to more risk is something only you yourself can determine.

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  #13 (permalink)
mangolassi
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IzhakHaim View Post
Which kind of day trader take a 20 ticks SL on ES??? it is 5 FULL POINTS. If you have such a large SL, you for sure as no idea what you doing and just flip a coin with hope to win. Have a tight SL with a wide TP and you good.

With your SL of 20 ticks you should looking to TP of 40 ticks. When was the last time you saw an 8 points move on ES that you can grab??? dreams don't make money. Wake up. Have a 2:1 ration, win 2 point, lose 1 point and be happy.

Wrong again. Wide stops are common among professional traders. This leaves room to scale in if necessary. Scalpers, depending on what they're doing, sometimes depend on wide stops by necessity even though their profit targets are small. I trade the Nikkei 225 Mini (Osaka), and I use wide stops and scaling in techniques and mostly scalp. Typically, my initial stops are several times my initial profit target. And I'm profitable. These stops are in place in case of a catastrophe like power outage, and rarely are hit.

You claim that someone using 5 points as a stop has no idea what they are doing... but honestly, you don't seem to have much experience with managing risk and understanding probability between high risk/low reward setups and low risk/high reward setups. I would urge you not to try and convince people that $25K is a lot of capital to trade 10 contracts with.

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  #14 (permalink)
 IzhakHaim 
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HoopyTrading View Post
From what I can tell, many brokers would not allow a trader with a $25K account to get into a 10 ct position in ES, since the initial margin requirement for ES as set by the CME is currently $4,620 per ct.

So with $25K, the most you could enter the position for would be 5 cts. That requires only $23,100.

I agree with the others...1ct with 25K is very doable. Try sticking with that until you can double your initial account balance. Then stick with it some more on 1ct and double the original amount again. When at 75K, try 2ct? A bit conservative, yes. *shrugs*

Truly however, the decision on when to start exposing your account to more risk is something only you yourself can determine.

The margin you talk about is for over night. I talk about intra day. A new trader to keep open position over night? a gambler.

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  #15 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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IzhakHaim View Post
The margin you talk about is for over night. I talk about intra day. A new trader to keep open position over night? a gambler.

Please stop the nonsense. A new trader holding overnight does not make him a gambler.

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  #16 (permalink)
 IzhakHaim 
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mangolassi View Post
Wrong again. Wide stops are common among professional traders. This leaves room to scale in if necessary. Scalpers, depending on what their doing, sometimes depend on wide stops by necessity even though their profit targets are small. I trade the Nikkei 225 Mini (Osaka), and I use wide stops and scaling in techniques and mostly scalp. Typically, my initial stops are several times my initial profit target. And I'm profitable. These stops are in place in case of a catastrophe like power outage, and rarely are hit.

You claim that someone using 5 points as a stop has no idea what they are doing... but honestly, you don't seem to have much experience with managing risk and understanding probability between high risk/low reward setups and low risk/high reward setups. I would urge you not to try and convince people that $25K is a lot of capital to trade 10 contracts with.

Your scale in "Technic" called double down. You add to your losing position at a "better price". Learn what happened to the martingale traders... For 5 points stops you should have 10 points profit. Good luck for a new trader to get it....

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  #17 (permalink)
mangolassi
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IzhakHaim View Post
Your scale in "Technic" called double down. You add to your losing position at a "better price". Learn what happened to the martingale traders... For 5 points stops you should have 10 points profit. Good luck for a new trader to get it....

I'm done here. Can't fight ignorance with forum posts.

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  #18 (permalink)
 HoopyTrading 
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IzhakHaim View Post
The margin you talk about is for over night. I talk about intra day. A new trader to keep open position over night? a gambler.

That margin I talked about was initial margin as set by the CME, in order to actually enter a position...not the overnight. The overnight on ES as of this timestamp is $4,200 per ct. Initial margin is 110% of overnight, so $4,200+$420=$4,650 = Initial.

Whether or not a particular broker decides to pass on the initial margin requirement to it's customers is apparently up to them, but the overnight seems to be a hard fast rule that brokers follow at a minimum from what I can tell.

When Brexit reared it's ugly head, I recall some brokers increasing their daytrade margins, and overnight margins went through the roof. Ninjatrader Brokerage was up to 3X the CME standard for overnight...? That's heavy.

Anyhoo, Izhakhaim, I am currently keeping an open 1ct position in MGC overnight in my live account, as we speak. I am a "new trader". It is for testing my trading plan. Am I gambling? Or am I investing in a potentially very small loss in my studies to assure I don't make bigger mistakes in the future? Every business has up days and down days. Profit and loss. Investing a bit of money in your business and learning how to be profitable in it over the long-term is never gambling, it is education to help you assure that longer-term success that every business seeks.

You decide man.

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  #19 (permalink)
 Inletcap 
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IzhakHaim View Post
Which kind of day trader take a 20 ticks SL on ES??? it is 5 FULL POINTS. If you have such a large SL, you for sure as no idea what you doing and just flip a coin with hope to win. Have a tight SL with a wide TP and you good.


IzhakHaim View Post
With your SL of 20 ticks you should looking to TP of 40 ticks. When was the last time you saw an 8 points move on ES that you can grab??? dreams don't make money. Wake up. Have a 2:1 ration, win 2 point, lose 1 point and be happy.

Get an elite membership-> find the elite Es spoonalysis thread. I and others do this just about every day and post our trades in real time. 8 pts is just a beginning, many days we take the range for 20+ although lately it's been smaller as the ADR has contracted. Live, on the thread with entries and exits posted- I, and others grabbed 10+ pts yesterday and today as an example. So there you have it- Now that you can see you are talking to someone who knows what they are doing and can back it up I will tell you that you have a lot to learn and that your posts read very ingnorant. A stop loss of less than the normal intraday noise ( say 20-30% of the ADR average daily range) is grounds for disaster for a day trader! Scalpers, on the other hand, use different criteria but will never see the type of trades you mentioned as unattainable.

To answer the original posters question- I belive a 25k starting balance to trade 1-2 contracts is very rational. When you learn about fading in and scaling out, you will find that trading more than one contract can dramatically improve your results ( and no- fading is not in any way martingale technique when properly done)

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 Itchymoku 
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This question has been mulled over time and time again. The amount of money really doesn't matter. What matters is knowing your system's draw down potential and how many trades you're willing to lose with your money before determining that you need to change what you're doing or stop.

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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  #21 (permalink)
Hickock
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To the OP. Very realistic.

But why trade the ES? I cannot understand the fascination with the ES. I get it that a lot of people on this board trade it, but it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade.

Trade the NQ with a smaller point size, but bigger overall daily range ( most days ).

Learn futures on the NQ and then add contracts if you are successful and your win rate is high.

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  #22 (permalink)
 Inletcap 
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Hickock View Post
To the OP. Very realistic.

But why trade the ES? I cannot understand the fascination with the ES. I get it that a lot of people on this board trade it, but it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade.

Trade the NQ with a smaller point size, but bigger overall daily range ( most days ).

Learn futures on the NQ and then add contracts if you are successful and your win rate is high.

Please elaborate as to why one would not want to trade the most heavily traded futures contract in the world? Is it because it's the most liquid, has virtually zero slippage and no spreads or maybe something like the fact that it respects price levels with damn near to the tick precision while affording one time to assess and get a trade on before it makes its beautiful trend up or down to the next level?

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  #23 (permalink)
Hickock
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Inletcap View Post
Please elaborate as to why one would not want to trade the most heavily traded futures contract in the world? Is it because it's the most liquid, has virtually zero slippage and no spreads or maybe something like the fact that it respects price levels with damn near to the tick precision while affording one time to assess and get a trade on before it makes its beautiful trend up or down to the next level?

One word. Movement.

While the ES was trading in a tight range the last week, the NQ was making several quick clean moves for 15 points or more. And the trade resolves it's self much faster.

Getting slipped a tick on the NQ is hardly the end of the world if you know what you are doing. It respects levels a lot better than the ES as a matter of fact.

Your risk to reward is better on the NQ. More movement = better chance of making your cash and getting out before the algos and big boys decide to walk it back to your entry.

Most newbies on the ES trade with stops that are way to tight and unrealistic. You can give a trade on the NQ more room and still stay within proper risk to reward ratios.

The list goes on and on.

But this board skews heavily towards ES traders. And that's ok. But the ES is not the end all, be all, to futures trading.

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  #24 (permalink)
 Inletcap 
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Hickock View Post
One word. Movement.

While the ES was trading in a tight range the last week, the NQ was making several quick clean moves for 15 points or more. And the trade resolves it's self much faster.

Getting slipped a tick on the NQ is hardly the end of the world if you know what you are doing. It respects levels a lot better than the ES as a matter of fact.

Your risk to reward is better on the NQ. More movement = better chance of making your cash and getting out before the algos and big boys decide to walk it back to your entry.

Most newbies on the ES trade with stops that are way to tight and unrealistic. You can give a trade on the NQ more room and still stay within proper risk to reward ratios.

The list goes on and on.

But this board skews heavily towards ES traders. And that's ok. But the ES is not the end all, be all, to futures trading.

Totally respect your opinion but would like to point out that:
A 7 point move on a Es contract puts $350 in your pocket whereas a 15 point move on Nq puts $300. It's six of one, half dozen of the other- NQ will have a larger range as its twice the point value.
Risk reward- you lost me there.. You risk dollars to make dollars. Point value makes no difference. Using the above example 7 pts risk on Es is about 15 Nq. Must be using a stop to measure risk rather than expectancy- very dangerous account killing idea.
Hard Stops - Why would anybody use these? Catastrophic stops- yes but one should learn to trade rather than rely on training wheels to take their money. Hard stops will kill an account, this is very well known. If using them anyway, there is no difference- point value of stop should be about twice because point value of the index is about twice.

Anyway- not trying to argue, I just don't want some newbie reading this to get misinformation. I have traded both markets and find them to act identical to each other. Now, if you want movement, I suggest trading CL or GC, significantly less volume so she'll give you that immediate reward

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 Tymbeline 
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Inletcap View Post
Totally respect your opinion


I wonder if you quite appreciate how differently from "respect" the tone of your post comes across, Inletcap?

We get that you disagree with Hickock, but referring to his post as "misinformation" seemed pretty unkind to me.

When you also refer to hard stops as "training wheels" and say that they'll kill an account and that "this is very well known", almost as if it's something objective and irrefutable, people could perhaps be forgiven for wondering whose "information" is really in need of correction, here.

From my own experience, I agree with everything Hickock has said, above: I find NQ far easier to trade profitably than ES, myself, for exactly the reasons he mentions.

I don't want it to sound like a complaint or a criticism at all, and it absolutely isn't either, but I've also noticed that there's a fairly strong bias toward ES in this forum (I suspect these things become artificially self-perpetuating, to some extent, simply because ES traders tend gradually to accumulate where the ES discussions are). But there also some NQ traders here, and some of us have opinions, too, which we quite like to be able to express without having them dismissed as "misinformation".

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  #26 (permalink)
Hickock
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@Tymbeline

Thanks for your reply and being much more diplomatic than I could ever be.

I think that some people may be repeating "wisdom" they have heard from some larger than life personalities on this board.

Hard stops are there for a reason. That is the point where your signal/idea has failed. Any extra room at that point is juist inviting a bigger loss and creating bad habits.

Good trading!

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 Inletcap 
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Tymbeline View Post
I wonder if you quite appreciate how differently from "respect" the tone of your post comes across, Inletcap?

We get that you disagree with Hickock, but referring to his post as "misinformation" seemed pretty unkind to me.

When you also refer to hard stops as "training wheels" and say that they'll kill an account and that "this is very well known", almost as if it's something objective and irrefutable, people could perhaps be forgiven for wondering whose "information" is really in need of correction, here.

From my own experience, I agree with everything Hickock has said, above: I find NQ far easier to trade profitably than ES, myself, for exactly the reasons he mentions.

I don't want it to sound like a complaint or a criticism at all, and it absolutely isn't either, but I've also noticed that there's a fairly strong bias toward ES in this forum (I suspect these things become artificially self-perpetuating, to some extent, simply because ES traders tend gradually to accumulate where the ES discussions are). But there also some NQ traders here, and some of us have opinions, too, which we quite like to be able to express without having them dismissed as "misinformation".

Of course everyone should express their opinion as that's what FIO is all about! The tone of my reply was not meant to be demeaning at all, just factual. If I were a newbie trader and stumbled across this post that basically says NQ is easier to trade, has better risk reward and I make more money, I may actually believe that. Truth is every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify. When one places too much emphasis on a chart, any market is difficult to trade and unfortunately too many books have been written polluting the minds of traders to place hard stops so that they can control thier risk based on chart/bar patterns.

I am not always the best at choosing the right words to get my message across but I would tend to think most believe I am here to help others. I did not mean to offend anyone and appreciated the debate as referenced by thanking the posters comments. I did not receive the same so obviously either my opinion or my delivery did not sit well. Happy trading to all.

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  #28 (permalink)
 Tymbeline 
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Inletcap View Post
If I were a newbie trader and stumbled across this post that basically says NQ is easier to trade, has better risk reward and I make more money, I may actually believe that.


I hear you of course (and by the way I've learned quite a bit from your posts, here, myself), and thank you for such a tactful reply.

It depends what you mean by "believe", I suppose. I believe that NQ is easier for Hickock to trade, has better R:R for him and that he makes more money. I believe all those things of myself, too. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll also be true for a newbie reading such posts, of course. But it also doesn't mean the opposite?

We agree, of course, that every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify.

Comments about hard stops in books aren't "pollution", from my perspective: learning to use them was among the things that eventually turned me from overall loss into overall profit. Sorry - not what you wanted to hear!

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 Inletcap 
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Tymbeline View Post
I hear you of course (and by the way I've learned quite a bit from your posts, here, myself), and thank you for such a tactful reply.

It depends what you mean by "believe", I suppose. I believe that NQ is easier for Hickock to trade, has better R:R for him and that he makes more money. I believe all those things of myself, too. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll also be true for a newbie reading such posts, of course. But it also doesn't mean the opposite?

We agree, of course, that every market has its own tendencies that a trader needs to learn to objectify.

Comments about hard stops in books aren't "pollution", from my perspective: learning to use them was among the things that eventually turned me from overall loss into overall profit. Sorry - not what you wanted to hear!

"Believe" exactly- I believe that some folks find it better for them but saying "it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade." is not saying " I find it easier to trade". You have hit the nail on the head!! A lot of guys find value using stops but so many get constantly stopped as they use them to control trade risk vs account risk while trading signal to signal without context- subject for another day in another forum...

Anyway- best of trading to all today

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  #30 (permalink)
 Inletcap 
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IzhakHaim View Post
"many days we take the range for 20+"

And you still have time to post here??? With 20+ points a day, you can buy half of Myrtle Beach. Posting trades on a web site may be taken with a ton of salt. Hundreds of "Guru traders" post similar results but need to sell their signals for $99 a month. If you are able to take out from the market 20+ES points a day, where should we send the check to and share profits? A new trader that see your post may get the idea of open an account with $1000, trade 1 contract ($500 intraday margin), follow your entry/exit posts, make 20 points a day($1000) and so will be able to DOUBLE his money every day. Please. We may be born at night, but not last night. Good luck.

I encourage folks to trade with context and shoot for the avg daily range vs. scalping signal to signal. This is not a far-fetched idea as you allude and many have embraced the concept with great success. My successes and failures are posted for all to see daily in real time so in no way am I implying guru status. If I were always right, I would have been done trading a long time ago and sipping cocktails on my mega yacht named eMini . As for having time to post, that happens when you are not starring at your screen and grinding out every tick; Speaking of time, this is my last comment as I do not wish to validate your posts any further.

Best of luck to you buddy!

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  #31 (permalink)
Hickock
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Today is a good example of why I rarely trade the ES. Spent 30 minutes in an ES trade only to scratch.

Made $1750.00 trading crude and NQ in less than an hour this morning.

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 Big Mike 
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 Blash 
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Hickock View Post
To the OP. Very realistic.

But why trade the ES? I cannot understand the fascination with the ES. I get it that a lot of people on this board trade it, but it is absolutely the worst contract for a new trader to trade.

Trade the NQ with a smaller point size, but bigger overall daily range ( most days ).

Learn futures on the NQ and then add contracts if you are successful and your win rate is high.

This business is a personal decision for sure. Trade what best suits you and let that grow as you change/progress or evolve.

My barber is always trying to give me stock tips....tips he gets from some guy. We know each other well. He knows I'm involved with the market but futures mean nothing to him. He just gets quiet if I talk about it. He keeps telling me I should of taken his tips on this or that stock. There always under $5....lol. No matter what I say regarding me not trading stocks he still tells me to buy his stock (never short, completely foreign to him).

I don't have the heart to tell him I have two dogs that need hair cuts. I mean, "you cut hair right?.... so why not my dogs hair?.......OOOOO you mean you only cut human hair.......WHY?????....lol you charge $10 a hair cut and I give you a $5 tip..... I pay $45 a hair cut per dog and also give a tip.".... Because his business is JUST cutting human hair ...just a choice he made.

It's the same thing as him always telling me about trading stocks. I have zero interest in messing around with the stock market. Been there done that, don't like it. Yes, it's still trading, but so is cutting a dogs hair ....cutting hair... but he wont do it if I bring over my dogs.

I think if your completely new to trading, trade micro futures and or micro lot FX. If you lose your shirt trading micro lots in FX,... YOU HAVE GOT A SERIOUS PROBLEM.......lol.... or no money.

Ron

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