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Emini S & P 500 Intraday Trading Hours and Margin etc.


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Emini S & P 500 Intraday Trading Hours and Margin etc.

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  #1 (permalink)
hifromeddie
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When brokers talk about intraday margin for trading the Emini S & P (ES)...exactly when is Intraday?

I realize that ES has hours from 5pm EST to 4:15pm EST...then there is a 45 minute break.

Is 5pm - 4:15pm (EST) considered "Intraday" where Intraday margins can be used?

Or are Intraday hours something else?

And if someone holds a trade overnight where they need the initial and maintenance margin is that speaking about having trades still opened when the 45 minute break arrives?

For example, at the time of writing this the initial margin for ES is $5060, and the maintenance margin is $4600.

If the broker, for example, is allowing $1295 intraday margin does this mean anytime between 5:00 pm EST - 4:15 EST the ES contracts can be opened at $1295 per contract?

But if not everything is closed before 4:15 pm each contract (that is still open at break time) will need the $5060 initial margin per still opened contract?

Am I understanding this correctly...or am I getting it wrong? I could not find enough info on the internet for the intraday hours to make sense to me .

Finally, I realize various brokers offer different Intraday margins.

But do some brokers keep the margins for ES (for example) at $5060 initial and $4600 maintenance during all hours (overnight and intraday)?

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  #3 (permalink)
 PeakGrowth 
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  #4 (permalink)
hifromeddie
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Hi PeakGrowth...some of what was on that page answered my question (it said that "Each day at 15 minutes before the close of the normal trading session for a product, margin requirements will revert back to the 100% requirement until the opening of normal trading hours the next day.")

But when is the opening of the normal trading hours the next day? It isn't 5 pm (45 minute later)?

I guess I was thrown off when I emailed one broker who told me intraday hours apply to the hours between 5 pm - 4:15 pm (EST) when I was thinking intraday hours were between 8:30 am EST and 4:15 EST...but he said no.

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  #5 (permalink)
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hifromeddie View Post
Hi PeakGrowth...some of what was on that page answered my question (it said that "Each day at 15 minutes before the close of the normal trading session for a product, margin requirements will revert back to the 100% requirement until the opening of normal trading hours the next day.")

But when is the opening of the normal trading hours the next day? It isn't 5 pm (45 minute later)?

I guess I was thrown off when I emailed one broker who told me intraday hours apply to the hours between 5 pm - 4:15 pm (EST) when I was thinking intraday hours were between 8:30 am EST and 4:15 EST...but he said no.

Maybe he meant from 5PM until 4.15 the next day.
Matt
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  #6 (permalink)
hifromeddie
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Yes, he was speaking about 5 pm - 4:15 pm the next day as being Intraday hours, and he told me the only time the full 100% margin applies is if a trade is still open when the 4:15 break arrives.

I was thinking the full 100% rate applies during the entire overnight hours until the morning (EST).

But he said no.

So I didn't know if that was only unique to that broker or if all brokers do it that way.

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hifromeddie View Post
Yes, he was speaking about 5 pm - 4:15 pm the next day as being Intraday hours, and he told me the only time the full 100% margin applies is if a trade is still open when the 4:15 break arrives.

I was thinking the full 100% rate applies during the entire overnight hours until the morning (EST).

But he said no.

So I didn't know if that was only unique to that broker or if all brokers do it that way.

Brokers may very from 4.15 PM EST (or earlier) to 5 EST as far as what they consider end of day trading.
However, if you keep the ES past 5 o'clock EST, then you are subject to the exchange's initial margins.
Matt
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  #8 (permalink)
 PeakGrowth 
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hifromeddie View Post
Yes, he was speaking about 5 pm - 4:15 pm the next day as being Intraday hours, and he told me the only time the full 100% margin applies is if a trade is still open when the 4:15 break arrives.

I was thinking the full 100% rate applies during the entire overnight hours until the morning (EST).

But he said no.

So I didn't know if that was only unique to that broker or if all brokers do it that way.

I believe it's only for that break from what the IB page is saying - however, I trade ETH and seem to be always paying 100% margin for some reason. Though I never really cared because I always have my margin covered more than two fold when I am at my max position size.

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  #9 (permalink)
hifromeddie
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mattz View Post
Brokers may very from 4.15 PM EST (or earlier) to 5 EST as far as what they consider end of day trading.
However, if you keep the ES past 5 o'clock EST, then you are subject to the exchange's initial margins.

I see, but if I open a new ES trade after 5 pm the trade is not subject to initial margins? (That's part of what I am trying to figure out).

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  #10 (permalink)
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hifromeddie View Post
I see, but if I open a new ES trade after 5 pm the trade is not subject to initial margins? (That's part of what I am trying to figure out).

Between 5 and 6 EST, the ES market is closed.
So you should open it after 6 Clock and close by the broker's proposed time the next day to be considered a day trade.
Keep in mind that I am a broker in EST time zone, someone from Chicago may quote in CST time.

Matt
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  #11 (permalink)
ycomp
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mattz View Post
Brokers may very from 4.15 PM EST (or earlier) to 5 EST as far as what they consider end of day trading.
However, if you keep the ES past 5 o'clock EST, then you are subject to the exchange's initial margins.
Matt
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are there any brokers that might use 16:10 or 16:00 as the cut-off?

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ycomp View Post
are there any brokers that might use 16:10 or 16:00 as the cut-off?

Are you looking for such a broker or just curious?
We can teach you how to set an auto liquidation function for your account specifically?

Thanks,
Matt
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  #13 (permalink)
ycomp
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no I'm just trying to understand out what is safe across most brokers to stop trading by.


mattz View Post
Are you looking for such a broker or just curious?
We can teach you how to set an auto liquidation function for your account specifically?


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  #14 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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ycomp View Post
no I'm just trying to understand out what is safe across most brokers to stop trading by.

Volume dies on the first 1-minute bar after 1600. If you have a position to close out after that point, you'd better do it fast and it had better not be large if you want a good fill.

I personally think of the period between 1600 and 1615 as a wasteland that I don't want to be part of. With essentially no participation (volume from big players), predictability is pretty much out the window (well, not that markets are ever that predictable, of course ,) and while you will get a fill, so what? Not much usually happens during that period, and there is no advantage, as a rule, in a day trader having a position then.

Close your trades just before 1600, if you want to wait that long, while the market is still active, would be my suggestion. I would be out well before... the market is winding down, there's no big benefit in hanging on, whether you're in a profit or not.

Brokers will usually tell you on their web page when they will cut off day-trading margins, and they will certainly tell you if you ask. While it's a good thing to know, just as a matter of having full information, I don't think it's a good thing to act on. Be out before 1600, which is the best time for a last trade anyway, and then the issue goes away

Bob.

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ycomp
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ok I'll have it set to flatten positions by 16:00 as an emergency safety feature.. thanks. Great explanation.


bobwest View Post
Volume dies on the first 1-minute bar after 1600. If you have a position to close out after that point, you'd better do it fast and it had better not be large if you want a good fill.

I personally think of the period between 1600 and 1615 as a wasteland that I don't want to be part of. With essentially no participation (volume from big players), predictability is pretty much out the window (well, not that markets are ever that predictable, of course ,) and while you will get a fill, so what? Not much usually happens during that period, and there is no advantage, as a rule, in a day trader having a position then.

Close your trades before just 1600, if you want to wait that long, while the market is still active, would be my suggestion.

Brokers will usually tell you on their web page when they will cut off day-trading margins, and they will certainly tell you if you ask. While it's a good thing to know, just as a matter of having full information, I don't think it's a good thing to act on. Be out before 1600, which is the best time for a last trade anyway, and then the issue goes away

Bob.


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 bobwest 
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ycomp View Post
ok I'll have it set to flatten positions by 16:00 as an emergency safety feature.. thanks. Great explanation.

A better emergency time would probably be 15:59. The New York Stock Exchange closes at 1600, and arbitrage-related and hedging-related futures trades will mostly end then too. You want to close your trades into a still-active market.

Bob.

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ycomp View Post
no I'm just trying to understand out what is safe across most brokers to stop trading by.

"safe" is up to you. Some stop at 11EDT and some at 4.59EDT.
Sometimes you have after-hours earning that could spark volatility and provide a further opportunity or further trend continuation. I wish there was a rule, it all boils down to your individual selection.
If you are starting out, 16:00 EDT should be fine.

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Matt Z
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  #18 (permalink)
ycomp
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I just meant safe from overnight margins getting applied and possible charges depending on broker for holding overnight, I should have explained it better.


mattz View Post
"safe" is up to you. Some stop at 11EDT and some at 4.59EDT.
Sometimes you have after-hours earning that could spark volatility and provide a further opportunity or further trend continuation. I wish there was a rule, it all boils down to your individual selection.
If you are starting out, 16:00 EDT should be fine.

Thanks,
Matt Z
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ycomp View Post
I just meant safe from overnight margins getting applied and possible charges depending on broker for holding overnight, I should have explained it better.

All positions that are carried over past 5PM o'clock EDT/4PM CST are subject to CME margins.

For the Emini S&P, the CME posts the Maintenancemargins, and you need to multiply it by 1.1 for the Initial Margin requirements. That is the minimum amount you need to carry it over.

Day trading margins are a requirement of your brokers, so you need to meet their minimums throughout the day.

Matt Z
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There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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ycomp
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thanks for the explanation


mattz View Post
All positions that are carried over past 5PM o'clock EDT/4PM CST are subject to CME margins.

For the Emini S&P, the CME posts the Maintenancemargins, and you need to multiply it by 1.1 for the Initial Margin requirements. That is the minimum amount you need to carry it over.

Day trading margins are a requirement of your brokers, so you need to meet their minimums throughout the day.

Matt Z
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ycomp View Post
thanks for the explanation

You welcome. Any time.

Matt Z
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There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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