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Daytrading the Emini S&P 500!


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Daytrading the Emini S&P 500!

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  #1 (permalink)
cj060896
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Seeing so many people trade this I was hoping people could share their information. Please only post "Answers" if you are a profitable trader (no matter how small). I am just trying to get out of the red!

How many ticks do you "usually" "start" your stop loss at?
Any simple rules for how you adjust it as the trade progresses?

Where do you "usually" set your profit target?

What indicators work best for you?

Do you use tick charts or time charts and at what intervals?
Do you use bar intervals or candlesticks with your tick charts?

Do you follow any chat-rooms or threads with other profitable traders to give you any set up ideas?
Please post links and costs if any.

If you use any Emini Trading & How to Day Trade | Emini-Watch.com indicators, please provide any advice such as which ones you use, the intervals, you use and how you use them in a profitable way.

I realize that there is no easy way. I have my own system and have been putting in lots of time, money, and effort into this. I have been in the red for a couple of years and I feel I am close to breaking out. I have learned so much the past few weeks and have moved from E*Trade to Tradestation and Stocks to Futures. I am just looking for some general guidelines and ideas from profitable traders to incorporate into my system and help me navigate through this ever-changing market. I'd really appreciate any help and if I use anyone's ideas and make some serious money, I'd be more than happy to compensate you in the future!


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 RichardHK 
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Good questions.

But how about you give your answers first? Should help and encourage others to give more useful focused advice.

Richard
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 JFHughes 
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cj060896 View Post
Seeing so many people trade this I was hoping people could share their information. Please only post "Answers" if you are a profitable trader (no matter how small). I am just trying to get out of the red!

How many ticks do you "usually" "start" your stop loss at?
Any simple rules for how you adjust it as the trade progresses?

Where do you "usually" set your profit target?

What 2 indicators work best for you?

Do you follow any chat-rooms or threads with other profitable traders to give you any set up ideas?
Please post links and costs if any.

If you use any Emini Trading & How to Day Trade | Emini-Watch.com indicators, please provide any advice such as which ones you use, the intervals, you use and how you use them in a profitable way.

I realize that there is no easy way. I have my own system and have been putting in lots of time, money, and effort into this. I have been in the red for a couple of years and I feel I am close to breaking out. I have learned so much the past few weeks and have moved from E*Trade to Tradestation and Stocks to Futures. I am just looking for some general guidelines and ideas from profitable traders to incorporate into my system and help me navigate through this ever-changing market. I'd really appreciate any help and if I use anyone's ideas and make some serious money, I'd be more than happy to compensate you in the future!


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60/30 min charts for trend and targets.
15/5 min charts for entry exits.
STO and MACD for indicators also eye volumes for tops/bottoms

Stops initial I have found 6 tic's work best and adjust as trade goes your way.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Joe

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cj060896
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RichardHK View Post
Good questions.

But how about you give your answers first? Should help and encourage others to give more useful focused advice.

Why would I post answers when I don't make money? I am creating this to get people moving in the right direction. I have been experimenting with various answers to all of these questions and I am in the red.

All I know is I am focused on trading the Emini S&P 500 with Tradestation. I plan to use the Better Sin, Better Pro Am, and Better Volume indicators. I feel I am heading in the right direction and I'm looking for help fine tuning these things.

I am asking because it feels like I am always on the wrong side of the trade. I want to know if I need larger stops because it always feels like I got stopped out right before things go my way and it's always too late. I want to know if I should be using smaller profits too because it also feels like things reverse I and I usually end up with a break even trade. So I am trying to figure out if going with smaller stops and smaller losses is better (and if so how small) or if it is better to have larger stops and give my entries a chance to breathe. I have followed the 2 to 1 ratio, ect on books, but think I need advice from some actual winners that don't need to write a book to make money!

 
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 JFHughes 
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CJ

I went through that experience also, so I widened the stops and adjusted to a smaller risk tolerance.
So what if you have to trade 1 contract for a while, it is about suceeding over the long haul, not short term
being correct. Adjust your P and L expectations for the short term.

What I found in my case, is that it was a trace of being over anxious to trade, which translates into discipline.

I went through, and still go through with being correct but being early and getting stopped out at a scratch or small loss.

What I have done is adjust the targets from longer time frame charts, it provides a good filter for noise and a better view of S/R for targets. IMHO.

It does sound like you are on the right track, but again don't over trade, fight the urge to have to do "something" just because the indicators line up. I hope this helps. --- Best of luck, Joe


cj060896 View Post
Why would I post answers when I don't make money? I am creating this to get people moving in the right direction. I have been experimenting with various answers to all of these questions and I am in the red.

All I know is I am focused on trading the Emini S&P 500 with Tradestation. I plan to use the Better Sin, Better Pro Am, and Better Volume indicators. I feel I am heading in the right direction and I'm looking for help fine tuning these things.

I am asking because it feels like I am always on the wrong side of the trade. I want to know if I need larger stops because it always feels like I got stopped out right before things go my way and it's always too late. I want to know if I should be using smaller profits too because it also feels like things reverse I and I usually end up with a break even trade. So I am trying to figure out if going with smaller stops and smaller losses is better (and if so how small) or if it is better to have larger stops and give my entries a chance to breathe. I have followed the 2 to 1 ratio, ect on books, but think I need advice from some actual winners that don't need to write a book to make money!


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cj060896
Hartford/Connecticut
 
 
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What did you widen to your stop too? Yes I plan to trade 1 contract for a while. Should I start with 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks, or even more for my basic stop loss?

 
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  #8 (permalink)
 josh 
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cj060896 View Post
Should I start with 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks, or even more for my basic stop loss?

Wouldn't that depend mostly on where you enter the trade? Said another way, an answer of "use 3 ticks" or "use 20 ticks" won't mean anything without some context of your entry point.

Also, since you said you feel as if you are often on the wrong side, have you considered doing exactly the opposite of what you feel you should do? Put differently: someone else on the other side of your trade is in a winner. Why not join them?

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 trendisyourfriend 
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cj060896 View Post
What did you widen to your stop too? Yes I plan to trade 1 contract for a while. Should I start with 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks, or even more for my basic stop loss?

What is your expectation to win 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks if you take into account 2 tick of slippage (1 at the entry and 1 at the exit) + commission at around $5 for a round trip?

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 JFHughes 
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cj060896 View Post
What did you widen to your stop too? Yes I plan to trade 1 contract for a while. Should I start with 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks, or even more for my basic stop loss?

CJ

As the other's stated that depends on your entry point, your profit target, risk profile and what type of strategy you are using. i.e. if you are trying to time trend reversals off of say 100 bar tic chart you better keep it fairly tight, say 4 to 6 tic's on an emini in my opinion, but if you have a huge risk tolerance and trust the set up you can get wider.

I trade reversals and break outs primarily, so what I have learned since re-entering trading is that a 4 tic stop was too close to the high or low, the markets are a bit sloppy with all the electronic trading and new people comapared to back in the day when the floor wagged the tail, everyone pretty much knew S/R levels as P and F charts were carried with your deck, since I have found it best to be 5 or 6 tic's away, as I was using 4 and was getting stopped out on winning trades. So to account for the added loss potential I just scaled back size. But risk tolerance is a relative thing, mine is not yours or vice versa. This should be addressed in your trading plan, I use very tight risk profiles in the current environment .01 and sometimes less. Having traded through the big one and survived you learn when conditions are okay to take on a larger risk profile, currently I err to smaller.

The best answer comes from an Amos Lee song, "Keep it loose... Keep it Tight..."

Best,

Joe

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cj060896
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trendisyourfriend View Post
What is your expectation to win 3 ticks, 4 ticks, 5 ticks if you take into account 2 tick of slippage (1 at the entry and 1 at the exit) + commission at around $5 for a round trip?



Just trying to make $50 a day trading 1 contract. Lol not trying to make more until I can at least do that. So my goal is 4 ticks a day.

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 Big Mike 
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cj060896 View Post
Just trying to make $50 a day trading 1 contract. Lol not trying to make more until I can at least do that. So my goal is 4 ticks a day.

You are on the wrong path.

Read every post here:



Should be obvious after that and you can start thinking differently.

Mike

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cj060896
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Big Mike View Post
You are on the wrong path.

Read every post here:



Should be obvious after that and you can start thinking differently.

Mike

That the owner of this site would say I am wrong for a goal of just trying to get out of red (1st goal) and a goal of $50 a day. Never said I would stop if making more, will just be happy if I can make at least that. Your post is very vague and unhelpful so I have no idea where you are coming from. I do not have access to the link you provided...you need to be an "elite" member.

 
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 DarkPoolTrading 
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cj060896 View Post
That the owner of this site would say I am wrong for a goal of just trying to get out of red (1st goal) and a goal of $50 a day. Never said I would stop if making more, will just be happy if I can make at least that. Your post is very vague and unhelpful so I have no idea where you are coming from. I do not have access to the link you provided...you need to be an "elite" member.

Big Mike was likely hinting at the fact that you're looking in all the wrong places to try and be profitable. Most notably that you're looking externally for indicators and chat rooms to make you profitable instead of looking at yourself and what really needs to be done to become a trader.

A few points to consider:
  • Most indicators are a derivative of 3 things: price, time, volume. Most indicators, arguably all, are lagging which means they tell you what has already happened. Who cares what already happened. A suggestion is to spend some time learning to interpret market structure and figure out what the market is trying to do instead of relying on indicators to do it for you. A good starting point would be to spend some time (weeks-months) using nothing but a naked price chart and volume
  • Stop size - You're asking people to recommend a specific stop size. Given the information you've provided there is absolutely no way anyone can advise on that and would be dangerous to do so. Your stop should be based on market structure. First, determine where your stop SHOULD be based on market structure when planning a trade,...if that stop location is too big given your risk parameters, you skip the trade. You dont take the trade anyway and just hope that your stop wont get hit even though its slap bang in the middle of the action
  • Profit size - You talk about reducing your profit targets. Have you heard of the saying 'Cut your losers short and let your winners run'? That's not just some folk tale. Maintaining a high win percentage is near impossible,....what makes the vast majority of traders profitable is going for larger profits than what they risk
  • Chat rooms - Again, you're looking for someone or something else to make you profitable. Firstly, most rooms are scams, secondly if you do find a good room they will likely not be calling trades but will instead be talking about structure, psychology, risk etc

So basically, you're looking in all the wrong places. Get rid of the indicators, get rid of the search for absolutes, start learning to interpret what the market is actually trying to do and trade accordingly while keeping risk:reward front and center.

You can either completely ignore this post and continue on your hunt for the holy grail, or you can give some thought to the fact that you've been doing this for several years without success and therefore something is missing, perhaps a different path is needed.

Diversification is the only free lunch
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 JFHughes 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Big Mike was likely hinting at the fact that you're looking in all the wrong places to try and be profitable. Most notably that you're looking externally for indicators and chat rooms to make you profitable instead of looking at yourself and what really needs to be done to become a trader.

A few points to consider:
  • Most indicators are a derivative of 3 things: price, time, volume. Most indicators, arguably all, are lagging which means they tell you what has already happened. Who cares what already happened. A suggestion is to spend some time learning to interpret market structure and figure out what the market is trying to do instead of relying on indicators to do it for you. A good starting point would be to spend some time (weeks-months) using nothing but a naked price chart and volume
  • Stop size - You're asking people to recommend a specific stop size. Given the information you've provided there is absolutely no way anyone can advise on that and would be dangerous to do so. Your stop should be based on market structure. First, determine where your stop SHOULD be based on market structure when planning a trade,...if that stop location is too big given your risk parameters, you skip the trade. You dont take the trade anyway and just hope that your stop wont get hit even though its slap bang in the middle of the action
  • Profit size - You talk about reducing your profit targets. Have you heard of the saying 'Cut your losers short and let your winners run'? That's not just some folk tale. Maintaining a high win percentage is near impossible,....what makes the vast majority of traders profitable is going for larger profits than what they risk
  • Chat rooms - Again, you're looking for someone or something else to make you profitable. Firstly, most rooms are scams, secondly if you do find a good room they will likely not be calling trades but will instead be talking about structure, psychology, risk etc

So basically, you're looking in all the wrong places. Get rid of the indicators, get rid of the search for absolutes, start learning to interpret what the market is actually trying to do and trade accordingly while keeping risk:reward front and center.

You can either completely ignore this post and continue on your hunt for the holy grail, or you can give some thought to the fact that you've been doing this for several years without success and therefore something is missing, perhaps a different path is needed.

Eloquently stated. At some point during the process you do need to develope your own abilities to get some feel for the market.

 
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 Fadi 
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cj060896 View Post
Just trying to make $50 a day trading 1 contract. Lol not trying to make more until I can at least do that. So my goal is 4 ticks a day.

Easy on paper, impossible in real life
Try for yourself, and you will see...

I would trust what Big Mike is saying; been there, done that.

Successful people will do what unsuccessful people won't or can't do!
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cj060896
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Big Mike was likely hinting at the fact that you're looking in all the wrong places to try and be profitable. Most notably that you're looking externally for indicators and chat rooms to make you profitable instead of looking at yourself and what really needs to be done to become a trader.

A few points to consider:
  • Most indicators are a derivative of 3 things: price, time, volume. Most indicators, arguably all, are lagging which means they tell you what has already happened. Who cares what already happened. A suggestion is to spend some time learning to interpret market structure and figure out what the market is trying to do instead of relying on indicators to do it for you. A good starting point would be to spend some time (weeks-months) using nothing but a naked price chart and volume
  • Stop size - You're asking people to recommend a specific stop size. Given the information you've provided there is absolutely no way anyone can advise on that and would be dangerous to do so. Your stop should be based on market structure. First, determine where your stop SHOULD be based on market structure when planning a trade,...if that stop location is too big given your risk parameters, you skip the trade. You dont take the trade anyway and just hope that your stop wont get hit even though its slap bang in the middle of the action
  • Profit size - You talk about reducing your profit targets. Have you heard of the saying 'Cut your losers short and let your winners run'? That's not just some folk tale. Maintaining a high win percentage is near impossible,....what makes the vast majority of traders profitable is going for larger profits than what they risk
  • Chat rooms - Again, you're looking for someone or something else to make you profitable. Firstly, most rooms are scams, secondly if you do find a good room they will likely not be calling trades but will instead be talking about structure, psychology, risk etc

So basically, you're looking in all the wrong places. Get rid of the indicators, get rid of the search for absolutes, start learning to interpret what the market is actually trying to do and trade accordingly while keeping risk:reward front and center.

You can either completely ignore this post and continue on your hunt for the holy grail, or you can give some thought to the fact that you've been doing this for several years without success and therefore something is missing, perhaps a different path is needed.

All makes sense and i appreciate the response and will take much of it into consideration. Yes I know I have been the problem and I am not looking for some holy grail. Was really just looking for what successful traders are using with there systems. I was hoping to incorporate some things (obviously some things would have to be adjusted to my trading as well. I have just read a lot of bull crap and had advice from people who don't make money, so I did not make money. These forums seem the only place where there are some traders that actually make money, so I was hoping to get an "inside look" to steer me in the right direction. Not a day goes by that I don't spend at least 4 hours researching the emini market and learning to day trade it.

I happen to respectfully and partially disagree with you. I think learning how profitable traders generally start their trading day can help me be a successful trader. One other thing, if there is a successful trader out there willing to work with me on Skype or in CT, I'd be more than happy to pay. There are just too many "fake" coaches out there for me to lose even more money on and lead me down the wrong path. This is my last shot and I have to make it work.

 
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 RichardHK 
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>>... if there is a successful trader out there willing to work with me<<

Have you tried Al Brooks' Trading Webinar Room? For learning about market structure and price action, you cannot really go wrong. He is not a scammer and is devoted to help traders learn. Priceless.

Another invaluable price action resource is Mack's PATS YouTube site.

And you also have Adam Grimes free online trading course that is well worth your time. Unlike most other courses, Adam's has a strong emphasis on practical psychology. The Art & Science of Trading. As Adam stresses, drop what you already know and start learning afresh. Seems to well fit your stated needs, right?

Ref Better Indicators, I have had full set for more than a year and found the Better Momentum and Better Sinewave to be too distracting. Helps sometimes, but often confused my price action reading. But the Better ProAm is very useful, in particular with order flow analysis, to support price action setups. I use a 2000 tick bar chart.

Good luck.

Richard
Hong Kong
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cj060896
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Fadi View Post
Easy on paper, impossible in real life
Try for yourself, and you will see...

I would trust what Big Mike is saying; been there, done that.

Once again, totally unhelpful??? What do you suggest $25 trading 2 contracts? I have the money to trade over 20 contracts. Just trying to start small until I am not losing money.

 
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 Fadi 
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cj060896 View Post
Once again, totally unhelpful??? What do you suggest $25 trading 2 contracts? I have the money to trade over 20 contracts. Just trying to start small until I am not losing money.

With time you will learn that you cannot put a fixed target per day for yourself; you have to trade what the market gives you. For many days you will be constraint to just watch the price action all day, and on some others you would make $2,000+ in just few minutes.
If you come with this spirit of having to gain something each day, you will fall in the trap of overtrading, and sooner or later you will run your account to zero and below.

Moreover, there will be a 99% chance that your psychology takes over whenever you are near those 4 ticks of profit you are talking about, you will have the dilemma of taking the gain or just be patient and wait for more... It will play bad tricks to you!
On the opposite side, when you will be 4 ticks down, what will you do? close the trade and lose the work/money you did the previous day? Or wait for the price to regain your level and pray for an additional 4 tick move in your favour to reach your daily target?

The best is to forget your daily target thing all together, and just learn proper technical analysis and learn to buy at support and sell at resistance as much as possible... over and over again... and no matter the distance between those support and resistance areas you identify.

They could be 4 ticks apart, and they could be 10 points apart, this will depend on your strategy and time frame you define for yourself of course, but it won't matter as long as you execute properly!

Your current capital and net worth is absolutely irrelevant too, you could have 1 million to spare, it won't change the approach.
You start with 1x contract ONLY, and set a cumulative target for yourself, let's say $5,000 to start.
Then you would only increase position size to 2x contracts if you achieve those +$5k of profit on top of your million or whatever capital you have; and when you reach $15k for example of total profit you increase to 3x contracts, and so on...

If you reward yourself with an extra contract to trade after securing a certain amount of profit, you will train your subconscious mind to preserve capital, and that's the most important part of being a trader in my opinion.

Remember, trading is about generating capital, preserving capital, and repeating.

Most traders fail at the second step! You will see as you progress and get some more experience in this field, that it is relatively easy to generate money, and sometimes you even cash in a lot on a "lucky" day - but more often than not, you will give it back all on the second day if not before.

My advise to you is to start with learning proper technical analysis, in order to understand the price action, be able to spot the S/R levels, and so on... and this is available in books, ebooks, forums, webinars, websites, paid or free.

I often advice new traders to start with the free school at babypips: School of Pipsology | Learn Forex Trading.
It is targeting FOREX traders, but it won't matter at this stage, the information they share and the teaching they do on virtually every aspect of the trading business for retailers is worth gold and more!

Take and learn whatever they have to say, in the end, chart reading will be the same whether you trade currencies, stocks, futures, commodities, bonds, options, you name it...

The important is you really understand all what technical analysis is about, money management, position sizing, manipulations in the markets, correlations, news, etc... and then you apply to your ES trading, or I would personally recommend the NQ instead.

I hope I was a little bit more useful now; don't hesitate to revert back.

Cheers
Fadi

Successful people will do what unsuccessful people won't or can't do!
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  #21 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Elite Member
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RichardHK View Post
>>... if there is a successful trader out there willing to work with me<<

Have you tried Al Brooks' Trading Webinar Room? For learning about market structure and price action, you cannot really go wrong. He is not a scammer and is devoted to help traders learn. Priceless.

Another invaluable price action resource is Mack's PATS YouTube site.

And you also have Adam Grimes free online trading course that is well worth your time. Unlike most other courses, Adam's has a strong emphasis on practical psychology. The Art & Science of Trading. As Adam stresses, drop what you already know and start learning afresh. Seems to well fit your stated needs, right?

Ref Better Indicators, I have had full set for more than a year and found the Better Momentum and Better Sinewave to be too distracting. Helps sometimes, but often confused my price action reading. But the Better ProAm is very useful, in particular with order flow analysis, to support price action setups. I use a 2000 tick bar chart.

Good luck.

I came to post this and you already had it. Look into price action, get away from indicators, rooms, and gurus.

You talk about wanting to make $50/day. What is your loss limit for each day? Your stop per trade will be dependant on market context and therefore flux. Your stop will need to fall within your daily loss limit, if it doesn't then you don't have valid risk to take the trade.

Look into trading pyschology, risk management, and price action. Trade as small as possible until you figure it out and then work to scale your position up.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
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  #22 (permalink)
cj060896
Hartford/Connecticut
 
 
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Fadi View Post
With time you will learn that you cannot put a fixed target per day for yourself; you have to trade what the market gives you. For many days you will be constraint to just watch the price action all day, and on some others you would make $2,000+ in just few minutes.
If you come with this spirit of having to gain something each day, you will fall in the trap of overtrading, and sooner or later you will run your account to zero and below.

Moreover, there will be a 99% chance that your psychology takes over whenever you are near those 4 ticks of profit you are talking about, you will have the dilemma of taking the gain or just be patient and wait for more... It will play bad tricks to you!
On the opposite side, when you will be 4 ticks down, what will you do? close the trade and lose the work/money you did the previous day? Or wait for the price to regain your level and pray for an additional 4 tick move in your favour to reach your daily target?

The best is to forget your daily target thing all together, and just learn proper technical analysis and learn to buy at support and sell at resistance as much as possible... over and over again... and no matter the distance between those support and resistance areas you identify.

They could be 4 ticks apart, and they could be 10 points apart, this will depend on your strategy and time frame you define for yourself of course, but it won't matter as long as you execute properly!

Your current capital and net worth is absolutely irrelevant too, you could have 1 million to spare, it won't change the approach.
You start with 1x contract ONLY, and set a cumulative target for yourself, let's say $5,000 to start.
Then you would only increase position size to 2x contracts if you achieve those +$5k of profit on top of your million or whatever capital you have; and when you reach $15k for example of total profit you increase to 3x contracts, and so on...

If you reward yourself with an extra contract to trade after securing a certain amount of profit, you will train your subconscious mind to preserve capital, and that's the most important part of being a trader in my opinion.

Remember, trading is about generating capital, preserving capital, and repeating.

Most traders fail at the second step! You will see as you progress and get some more experience in this field, that it is relatively easy to generate money, and sometimes you even cash in a lot on a "lucky" day - but more often than not, you will give it back all on the second day if not before.

My advise to you is to start with learning proper technical analysis, in order to understand the price action, be able to spot the S/R levels, and so on... and this is available in books, ebooks, forums, webinars, websites, paid or free.

I often advice new traders to start with the free school at babypips: School of Pipsology | Learn Forex Trading.
It is targeting FOREX traders, but it won't matter at this stage, the information they share and the teaching they do on virtually every aspect of the trading business for retailers is worth gold and more!

Take and learn whatever they have to say, in the end, chart reading will be the same whether you trade currencies, stocks, futures, commodities, bonds, options, you name it...

The important is you really understand all what technical analysis is about, money management, position sizing, manipulations in the markets, correlations, news, etc... and then you apply to your ES trading, or I would personally recommend the NQ instead.

I hope I was a little bit more useful now; don't hesitate to revert back.

Cheers
Fadi

Guess I should have posted that better. Not $50 PER day. It's more of a cumulative goal. As I said, if I can break even overall I will be thrilled. I did say I would not stop for the day even if I made $50. The most I like to lose in a day is $1,000. I want to trade for 4-6 hours a day as long as I am not losing money with an ultimate goal of someday making at least $50 a day average.

 
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  #23 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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cj060896 View Post
Guess I should have posted that better. Not $50 PER day. It's more of a cumulative goal. As I said, if I can break even overall I will be thrilled. I did say I would not stop for the day even if I made $50. The most I like to lose in a day is $1,000. I want to trade for 4-6 hours a day as long as I am not losing money with an ultimate goal of someday making at least $50 a day average.

How long could you afford to lose $1000/day?

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  #24 (permalink)
cj060896
Hartford/Connecticut
 
 
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tturner86 View Post
How long could you afford to lose $1000/day?

30 times

 
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  #25 (permalink)
 patidar 
Pergatory
 
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My calculus is rusty,but the numbers are off somewhere or the drinks I had last night are still being processing and frontal cortex is not functioning well.

 
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  #26 (permalink)
SpearPointTrader
Aurora IL
 
 
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I disagree at getting rid of indicators. I think you just have to know how to use them.

Sure, they have a lag, but a lag at the beginning of a move is inconsequential. As an example, the break out of a bollinger band squeeze may not show till after the move has started, HOWEVER, it still shows so near the beginning, and so far before the end, that you can capture a big chunk of the move anyway.

If your goal is to get every little bit of the price move, of course it won't work. However, if your goal is to catch a good sized slice from the middle of the move, it's works just fine. You'll miss the start, and you will miss the end, but everything in the middle is yours. This makes the lag irrelevant.




DarkPoolTrading View Post
Big Mike was likely hinting at the fact that you're looking in all the wrong places to try and be profitable. Most notably that you're looking externally for indicators and chat rooms to make you profitable instead of looking at yourself and what really needs to be done to become a trader.

A few points to consider:
  • Most indicators are a derivative of 3 things: price, time, volume. Most indicators, arguably all, are lagging which means they tell you what has already happened. Who cares what already happened. A suggestion is to spend some time learning to interpret market structure and figure out what the market is trying to do instead of relying on indicators to do it for you. A good starting point would be to spend some time (weeks-months) using nothing but a naked price chart and volume
  • Stop size - You're asking people to recommend a specific stop size. Given the information you've provided there is absolutely no way anyone can advise on that and would be dangerous to do so. Your stop should be based on market structure. First, determine where your stop SHOULD be based on market structure when planning a trade,...if that stop location is too big given your risk parameters, you skip the trade. You dont take the trade anyway and just hope that your stop wont get hit even though its slap bang in the middle of the action
  • Profit size - You talk about reducing your profit targets. Have you heard of the saying 'Cut your losers short and let your winners run'? That's not just some folk tale. Maintaining a high win percentage is near impossible,....what makes the vast majority of traders profitable is going for larger profits than what they risk
  • Chat rooms - Again, you're looking for someone or something else to make you profitable. Firstly, most rooms are scams, secondly if you do find a good room they will likely not be calling trades but will instead be talking about structure, psychology, risk etc

So basically, you're looking in all the wrong places. Get rid of the indicators, get rid of the search for absolutes, start learning to interpret what the market is actually trying to do and trade accordingly while keeping risk:reward front and center.

You can either completely ignore this post and continue on your hunt for the holy grail, or you can give some thought to the fact that you've been doing this for several years without success and therefore something is missing, perhaps a different path is needed.


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  #27 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
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SpearPointTrader View Post
I disagree at getting rid of indicators. I think you just have to know how to use them.

Sure, they have a lag, but a lag at the beginning of a move is inconsequential. As an example, the break out of a bollinger band squeeze may not show till after the move has started, HOWEVER, it still shows so near the beginning, and so far before the end, that you can capture a big chunk of the move anyway.

If your goal is to get every little bit of the price move, of course it won't work. However, if your goal is to catch a good sized slice from the middle of the move, it's works just fine. You'll miss the start, and you will miss the end, but everything in the middle is yours. This makes the lag irrelevant.

exactly!! how to use them is essential.

in order to put the market in context, some indicators can be extremely helpful. I wouldn't use them for triggering a trade, but I get a lot of useful information


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  #28 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
Market Wizard
Quebec
 
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Silvester17 View Post
exactly!! how to use them is essential.

in order to put the market in context, some indicators can be extremely helpful. I wouldn't use them for triggering a trade, but I get a lot of useful information


Cool your outer bands. What do they represent exactly?

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  #29 (permalink)
 Silvester17 
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Cool your outer bands. What do they represent exactly?

inner bands = noise bands and outer bands = target bands

one of the many great indicators by @Fat Tails

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  #30 (permalink)
cj060896
Hartford/Connecticut
 
 
Posts: 16 since Feb 2014
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I am finally moving in the right direction. THANK YOU Everyone!

Still would like advice from the profitable traders out there.

I am trading 1 contract. I try basically to find where the reversals are using various signals and try to scalp a little or jump on the trend once I have some confirmations that the S&P is reversing. I move my hard stop up if the trade goes my way. I usually try to stay about 6-8 ticks behind to give it room to move. I also set my limit to the resistance line if it's a consolidation time or I give it more room if the stock is trending until I feel the stock is reversing again.

Do you guys think this could work it long run (it has in short term)? First system I've ever had actually working!

For any newcomers; here is what I found my biggest mistakes were. Trendlines are virtually useless (I am sure they have there time and place, but using them to day trade did not work out AT ALL. I would have 1 monster trade, but all to often I was wrong footed when entering trades. Switching from candlesticks (even though they are so much prettier) to tick charts has also made all the difference. To think of all the time I wasted reading books on how to read candlestick charts! Now I focus more on the volume and type of trading going on. I WAS SHOCKED to find that I could pick out the turning point several times on stocks that showed no sign of breaking the "trend line" on a normal price candlestick chart. (I realize I will be wrong several times, but I can wait til things move my way...) Not saying any of these things are better, but for my trading syle; apparantly they are.

 
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  #31 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Elite Member
Portland, Oregon
 
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Look into Major Trend Reversals (also MTR Failures) they can be easier to spot and take time to develop which allow you to be prepared to take advantage of them.

Below is a futures.io (formerly BMT) webinar where Al Brooks talks about Trends, Reversals, and Ranges.



Below is another video where Al talks about the best price action setups:


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  #32 (permalink)
 JFHughes 
Dayton, NV
 
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Silvester17 View Post
exactly!! how to use them is essential.

in order to put the market in context, some indicators can be extremely helpful. I wouldn't use them for triggering a trade, but I get a lot of useful information


Silvester:

I have to agree with you, I can't count the number of times a OB/OS indicator or momentum indicator just to confirm something in a fast market has kept me from stepping on my male member. As long as it doesn't become analysis paralysis one two for those moments of doubt don't hurt.

Thanks,
Joe

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  #33 (permalink)
 DarkPoolTrading 
PTA, Gauteng
 
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SpearPointTrader View Post
I disagree at getting rid of indicators. I think you just have to know how to use them.

Sure, they have a lag, but a lag at the beginning of a move is inconsequential. As an example, the break out of a bollinger band squeeze may not show till after the move has started, HOWEVER, it still shows so near the beginning, and so far before the end, that you can capture a big chunk of the move anyway.

If your goal is to get every little bit of the price move, of course it won't work. However, if your goal is to catch a good sized slice from the middle of the move, it's works just fine. You'll miss the start, and you will miss the end, but everything in the middle is yours. This makes the lag irrelevant.

Keep in mind the context of this thread. The suggestions made were to a trader who has been trying unsuccessfully to turn a profit in this business for several years. Yet he is still asking questions like what is the best indicator, what are the best settings, what is the best stop size. With questions like that, it is very clear where the trader is on his journey (regardless of how long he's been trying).

So with the above context in mind,....my suggestion remains to get rid of the indicators and to learn to interpret market structure and context. Figure out what the market is actually trying to do. Forget about figuring out how to read indicators.

There may be a time and place to add them later down the road.

Diversification is the only free lunch
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  #34 (permalink)
 JFHughes 
Dayton, NV
 
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Keep in mind the context of this thread. The suggestions made were to a trader who has been trying unsuccessfully to turn a profit in this business for several years. Yet he is still asking questions like what is the best indicator, what are the best settings, what is the best stop size. With questions like that, it is very clear where the trader is on his journey (regardless of how long he's been trying).

So with the above context in mind,....my suggestion remains to get rid of the indicators and to learn to interpret market structure and context. Figure out what the market is actually trying to do. Forget about figuring out how to read indicators.

There may be a time and place to add them later down the road.

I agree with your statement considering the progress. No one comes to this business with a feel for it. It is learned from and paid to the markets. Tuition. Get's intuition. There is no short cut. Computer's and all the greatness they have brought us, has killed learning technical fundamentals like keeping P and F charts by hand, or simple OHLC charts by hand from a quotron. From these rudamentary, mundane tasks...one used to learn how the market felt. If it felt toppy, it usually was... and one learned to rely on their gut from these tasks of hand charting.
Computers and their ability to calculate although they bring much to the business, have eroded the markets foundation for traders. IMHO--- trade well... Joe

In alcohol's defense, I've done some pretty dumb shit while completely sober too.
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  #35 (permalink)
 DarkPoolTrading 
PTA, Gauteng
 
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JFHughes View Post
I agree with your statement considering the progress. No one comes to this business with a feel for it. It is learned from and paid to the markets. Tuition. Get's intuition. There is no short cut. Computer's and all the greatness they have brought us, has killed learning technical fundamentals like keeping P and F charts by hand, or simple OHLC charts by hand from a quotron. From these rudamentary, mundane tasks...one used to learn how the market felt. If it felt toppy, it usually was... and one learned to rely on their gut from these tasks of hand charting.
Computers and their ability to calculate although they bring much to the business, have eroded the markets foundation for traders. IMHO--- trade well... Joe

Precisely. Most of us can think back to the first time we installed our shiny new trading platform and opened up our very first chart. Personally,...I probably looked at the chart for about 2 minutes at most before bringing up the list of indicators and thinking to myself: 'Wow! look at all these indicators,...I can't wait to start going through all of them and finding the best ones'. Honestly,...who didn't have a similar experience?

The problem with this is that so many people then just dive down the indicator rabbit hole, constantly looking for the best settings, the best combination, etc. The problem comes when a year down the line they're still doing the same thing and you ask them questions like: 'What is the current market state?', 'What is the market trying to go?', 'Does the market appear to be waiting for something or does it seem determined?', 'Where are the next most likely destinations?'.

All you're likely to get is a blank stare in return. But, oh boy, can they tell you about all the cool indicators they have on their charts,....but still aren't profitable CONSISTENTLY.

Learn to read the market with nothing but price and volume. Then consider adding indicators to aid in the solid foundation you've built.

Diversification is the only free lunch
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  #36 (permalink)
 tturner86 
Elite Member
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
Precisely. Most of us can think back to the first time we installed our shiny new trading platform and opened up our very first chart. Personally,...I probably looked at the chart for about 2 minutes at most before bringing up the list of indicators and thinking to myself: 'Wow! look at all these indicators,...I can't wait to start going through all of them and finding the best ones'. Honestly,...who didn't have a similar experience?

The problem with this is that so many people then just dive down the indicator rabbit hole, constantly looking for the best settings, the best combination, etc. The problem comes when a year down the line they're still doing the same thing and you ask them questions like: 'What is the current market state?', 'What is the market trying to go?', 'Does the market appear to be waiting for something or does it seem determined?', 'Where are the next most likely destinations?'.

All you're likely to get is a blank stare in return. But, oh boy, can they tell you about all the cool indicators they have on their charts,....but still aren't profitable CONSISTENTLY.

Learn to read the market with nothing but price and volume. Then consider adding indicators to aid in the solid foundation you've built.

Indicators are like gauges in a car, they don't drive the car, but help you see if it is running correctly down the road.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal
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  #37 (permalink)
 supermht 
Naperville IL
 
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SpearPointTrader View Post
I disagree at getting rid of indicators. I think you just have to know how to use them.

Sure, they have a lag, but a lag at the beginning of a move is inconsequential. As an example, the break out of a bollinger band squeeze may not show till after the move has started, HOWEVER, it still shows so near the beginning, and so far before the end, that you can capture a big chunk of the move anyway.

If your goal is to get every little bit of the price move, of course it won't work. However, if your goal is to catch a good sized slice from the middle of the move, it's works just fine. You'll miss the start, and you will miss the end, but everything in the middle is yours. This makes the lag irrelevant.

you don't need indicator to catch big move.

 
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  #38 (permalink)
dm13dv1b
Debrecen, Hungary
 
 
Posts: 5 since Feb 2014
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I love this thread at the end it is a little bit off topic but still interesting. I traded FX with S/R, is it possible to trade the eminis this way? Keep up the good job! I really love your posts

 
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  #39 (permalink)
 RichardHK 
Hong Kong
 
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dm13dv1b View Post
... ... I traded FX with S/R, is it possible to trade the eminis this way? ... ...

Absolutely. Check out Mack's videos on YouTube as noted earlier. S/R is key to his (and my) profitable method.

Here is link to MACK again.

Richard
Hong Kong
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  #40 (permalink)
 sands 
London + UK
 
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What do they say. people learn in roughly this kind of order:

indicators
price action
order flow

As you go down you get closer to the the driver of the car, to use the analogy from an earlier post.

Come to think of it, I think that aptly describes why people lose money. Investing in that learning is not easy.

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  #41 (permalink)
coccigelus
bangkok
 
 
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cj060896 View Post
Guess I should have posted that better. Not $50 PER day. It's more of a cumulative goal. As I said, if I can break even overall I will be thrilled. I did say I would not stop for the day even if I made $50. The most I like to lose in a day is $1,000. I want to trade for 4-6 hours a day as long as I am not losing money with an ultimate goal of someday making at least $50 a day average.

My advise: (that i learned from others)

You have 30 k bucks. Go on Es and do ONLY one trade per day with a 1 tick stop and 1 tick profit.
When you have loose 1k stop trading and start to study, lurking , learning seriously for not less than 1000 hrs.
Then you will be ready to loose others 10 k bucks . After loose start again with others 1000 hrs.

If you will pass the first stage than it mean you are in the family of few very talented traders.

Cheers

 
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  #42 (permalink)
Eric B
Fort Worth, Texas
 
 
Posts: 49 since Jun 2013
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wow.. that's even worse advice than the usual 'just give it to charity' type.
my advice is to give the money to me. we can profit split

 
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  #43 (permalink)
coccigelus
bangkok
 
 
Posts: 16 since Dec 2013
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I love Texas humor!

 
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  #44 (permalink)
 Jigsaw Trading  Jigsaw Trading is an official Site Sponsor
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How many ticks do you "usually" "start" your stop loss at?
Any simple rules for how you adjust it as the trade progresses?


4-8 ticks, depending on volatility. I tend not to trail the stop but I will exit at the point I no longer think it's going my way.

Where do you "usually" set your profit target?


4 ticks first, then at 4-6 tick intervals, depending on volatility.

What indicators work best for you?

Cumulative Delta, PriceActionSwing.

Do you use tick charts or time charts and at what intervals?
Do you use bar intervals or candlesticks with your tick charts?


900 tick, you can barely see the individual bars on my chart, I use the swings, not the bars.

Do you follow any chat-rooms or threads with other profitable traders to give you any set up ideas?
Please post links and costs if any.


No

If you have any questions about the products or services provided, please send me a Private Message or use the futures.io "Ask Me Anything" thread
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  #45 (permalink)
 ValueFocused 
Chicago, Illinois
 
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cj060896 View Post
I am just trying to get out of the red!

Before you take, you have to give. What have you been doing thus far? What is your method? How do you think about markets? Without this information, nobody can help you.

Oh, and are you trading real money?

 
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  #46 (permalink)
ptlambi
London
 
 
Posts: 4 since Jan 2015
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tturner86 View Post
How long could you afford to lose $1000/day?

You're ok with losing $1000 a day and happy to make $50 ?? Something a little wrong with that I'm sorry and no Offence meant :-)

 
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  #47 (permalink)
 tturner86 
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Portland, Oregon
 
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ptlambi View Post
You're ok with losing $1000 a day and happy to make $50 ?? Something a little wrong with that I'm sorry and no Offence meant :-)

I think you should reread my posts.

I was asking the original poster that question.

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ptlambi
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tturner86 View Post
I think you should reread my posts.

I was asking the original poster that question.

Sorry TT missed that . Its early and I'm sitting here with a rotten cold / runny nose lol

All the best to you

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sharpshoota
Bodoe , Norway
 
 
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My advice to you is :
Trade a demo account first.. When you have trippled the amount of money you started with in demo you are ready to go live trading.
While trading demo you can save more money for your live account.

When you are ready to go live trading start with something small, f.ex. the E6-mini futures or forex. trade with a small part of your money ...15 - 20 % maybe.
When you have been able to tripple the money in your small account you are ready to start trading your full size account.

...YES, I know it's gonna take alot of time to get there. But try some other way and you will maybe run out of money before you even learned to play the game. ....why gamble...?

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STEPHANE1984
Bangkok
 
 
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I admit the bottom of 2nd february was possibly end of wave 4 ( but since this bottom I dont like the up which looks too much an a,b,c , for that reason I stay aside .
If I am right and there is a last puke to 2000-1960 then I will buy but not before .

 
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STEPHANE1984
Bangkok
 
 
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Sell esh15 @ 2068-2075 and buy T Notes Mars TYH5 @128^06 -128^00 target @ 130^15

 
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 Big Mike 
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