Long and Short Positions at the Same Time? - futures io
futures io futures trading



Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?


Discussion in Emini and Emicro Index

Updated by Xtrader22
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one tlopez51 with 7 posts (5 thanks)
    2. looks_two tderrick with 7 posts (1 thanks)
    3. looks_3 kamicrazy with 4 posts (2 thanks)
    4. looks_4 cory with 3 posts (0 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one Jigsaw Trading with 3.0 thanks per post
    2. looks_two ptcm with 1.5 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 tlopez51 with 0.7 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 kamicrazy with 0.5 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 17,096 views
    2. thumb_up 17 thanks given
    3. group 20 followers
    1. forum 41 replies
    2. attach_file 1 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 100,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?

  #21 (permalink)
the coin hunter
virginia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninja
Trading: NQ
 
cory's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,994 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 830 given, 7,819 received


traderwerks View Post
The wash sale rule ( 534 ) is designed to stop people from doing 'bad' things. It is also prohibited by the Commodity Exchange Act.

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

...

There is no need to explain why (plenty of threads here and other sites debate on its merit). bottom line, its my money I should be able to buy and sell as I please.

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
Convert NinjaTrader NT7 indicator to Tradestation EasyLanguage and RADARSCREEN
Platforms and Indicators
Issue meeting order entry conditions
Elite Automated NinjaTrader Trading
Last 5 minutes Label
ThinkOrSwim
Moving average with Lag reduction
NinjaTrader
Linux?
ThinkOrSwim
 
 
  #22 (permalink)
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Trading: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 47 received


cory View Post
There is no need to explain why (plenty of threads here and other sites debate on its merit). bottom line, its my money I should be able to buy and sell as I please.

Ditto! Besides, if you trade in an IRA like me there's no wash sale rule in effect for this type account.

Reply With Quote
 
  #23 (permalink)
Nashville, Tennessee
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja / Jigsaw / 9G
Broker: AMP / CQG
Trading: NQ, YM and ES
 
tderrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,588 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 4,260 given, 2,529 received



traderwerks View Post

I comes down to why would anyone want to go long and short at the same time. No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it is still your net position that matters.

.



The original premise was to, say, be in a long macro trade, but scalp the edges of consolidation ranges you
encounter along the way. Which, of course would encompass both long and short trades.

So, at some point, you would have a long contract and a short contract going at the same time.

I think I will still attempt it and see what happens


AJ
Nashville, Tennessee


"Life On The Edge of SR"
Follow me on Twitter Visit my Facebook Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
  #24 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: XTrader and Cloud TT
Broker: Advantage Futures
Trading: Energy
 
Posts: 3,458 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 2,764 given, 6,504 received


tlopez51 View Post
Ditto! Besides, if you trade in an IRA like me there's no wash sale rule in effect for this type account.

Different type of wash sale!

Reply With Quote
 
  #25 (permalink)
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Trading: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 47 received


SMCJB View Post
Different type of wash sale!

Nice catch! There was a time I traded in both a taxable and IRA accounts and it's definitely a head scratcher.

Reply With Quote
 
  #26 (permalink)
San Diego, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TT Pro
Broker: Advantage
Trading: Gasoil, heatoil, crude
 
baywolf's Avatar
 
Posts: 55 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 26 given, 31 received


tderrick View Post
I can't believe I haven't run across this idea until now. It works in Market Replay, but I'm not sure
if the exchanges would allow it....

Is it possible to have an overall long or short position going, but then scalp along the way either long
OR short?

I love to trade ping pong edges in tight consolidation. However, the macro trend may still be valid.

So I guess the question is - Can you have a long contract going then short a scalp along the way,
of course with a separate contract?

How long have I been trading ?

NQ in particular ..

AMP / CQG

grazie

Wait... What the OP describes doesn't seem to match what CME's definition of wash trade is.

CME is looking to prevent traders from giving the appearance like you are really taking a bona fide position, but are not really because you are placing simultaneous hedge trades at the same price.

An example: placing an iceberg (100 contracts) limit order at 100.01 in acct A and then having a marketable order at 100.01 in acct B. This is deemed malicious because you did not take a bona fide position in the market. It might trigger people and algorithms to pull their limit orders and cause the market to move in your desired direction, where you could then enter at a more favorable price.

What the OP I think is describing is scalping an upward support and resistance price channel. He might have both a limit buy order at 99.95 and a limit sell order at 100.05, but they certainly wouldn't execute simultaneously. He is not acting maliciously.

In that case I don't see why you would need more than one account. Am I missing something?

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to baywolf for this post:
 
  #27 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: XTrader and Cloud TT
Broker: Advantage Futures
Trading: Energy
 
Posts: 3,458 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 2,764 given, 6,504 received


baywolf View Post
Wait... What the OP describes doesn't seem to match what CME's definition of wash trade is.

CME is looking to prevent traders from giving the appearance like you are really taking a bona fide position, but are not really because you are placing simultaneous hedge trades at the same price.

An example: placing an iceberg (100 contracts) limit order at 100.01 in acct A and then having a marketable order at 100.01 in acct B. This is deemed malicious because you did not take a bona fide position in the market. It might trigger people and algorithms to pull their limit orders and cause the market to move in your desired direction, where you could then enter at a more favorable price.

What the OP I think is describing is scalping an upward support and resistance price channel. He might have both a limit buy order at 99.95 and a limit sell order at 100.05, but they certainly wouldn't execute simultaneously. He is not acting maliciously.

In that case I don't see why you would need more than one account. Am I missing something?

...
SMCJB View Post
I believe there is a difference between "having" long and short positions at the same time and "entering" or "creating" long and short positions at the same time. The latter is obviously a wash trade. but the former may not be. Note that the rule you quote references "orders" and not "positions".


Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to SMCJB for this post:
 
  #28 (permalink)
Taiwan
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
 
Posts: 44 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 8 given, 11 received

long and short same market

Recently I've done an experiment on having both long/short position(SSO/SDS) at the same time to trade the S&P index.
Instead of going completely long or short, I just adjust the ratio of the two position to get a net exposure.

Since I always have a position on the right side(though the strategy could be in -ve territory), psychologically I feel less biased when I have to flip directions, and more importantly , I would have less tendency sticking or adding to the losing positions. Somehow our brains are being short-circuited for X amount of time whenever we have a wrong position and more so when we are completely on the wrong side, and typically that's precisely when traders make irrational decisions, especially intraday.

In terms of commission, it doesn't make much sense but I feel that the psychological advantage is worth more than the comm I paid since I am not a HFT trader.
Most traders wouldn't do this due to comm but to me, the psychological disturbances cost me a lot more than comm historically. so net net still a +.

I am very interested to explore further on whether this practice works for other traders over the long term, especially on equity index ETF. For futures, since the positions got offseted in the same account and comm are also much higher relative to ETFs. I am not sure if it's practical to do it that way.

I did a search after my thread was closed due to its duplicated content, but majority of the discussions were not focused on the psychology side of it / on ETF products.

many thanks in advance.


Last edited by ptcm; January 1st, 2014 at 05:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to ptcm for this post:
 
  #29 (permalink)
Clifton, NJ/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation, NinjaTrader
Broker: TradeStation, NinjaTraderBrokerage, CQG, IQ-DTN
Trading: ES, NQ, YM, TF, CL, GC, ZB, IWM, FXE, SPY, UVXY, USO, TLT, TBT, QQQ, GLD, JNK
 
tlopez51's Avatar
 
Posts: 57 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 3 given, 47 received


ptcm View Post
Recently I've done an experiment on having both long/short position(SSO/SDS) at the same time to trade the S&P index.
Instead of going completely long or short, I just adjust the ratio of the two position to get a net exposure.

Since I always have a position on the right side(though the strategy could be in -ve territory), psychologically I feel less biased when I have to flip directions, and more importantly , I would have less tendency sticking or adding to the losing positions. Somehow our brains are being short-circuited for X amount of time whenever we have a wrong position and more so when we are completely on the wrong side, and typically that's precisely when traders make irrational decisions, especially intraday.

In terms of commission, it doesn't make much sense but I feel that the psychological advantage is worth more than the comm I paid since I am not a HFT trader.
Most traders wouldn't do this due to comm but to me, the psychological disturbances cost me a lot more than comm historically. so net net still a +.

I am very interested to explore further on whether this practice works for other traders over the long term, especially on equity index ETF. For futures, since the positions got offseted in the same account and comm are also much higher relative to ETFs. I am not sure if it's practical to do it that way.

I did a search after my thread was closed due to its duplicated content, but majority of the discussions were not focused on the psychology side of it / on ETF products.

many thanks in advance.

Instead of going completely long or short, I sometimes go with the cash settled S&P 500 index, SXPL (3x Bull) and SXPS (3x Bear), as well as the non-cash settled SSO (2x Bull) and SDS (2x Bear) leveraged ETF's. As long as your assumption is correct, the levered nature of these products will allow you to realized substantial gains in a short period of time. For a directional play I also tend to go with ES/2x NQ ratio spread.

I am not sure about the psychological effects as I try to leave all emotions out of the trading equation anyways. However, I would assume that the lesser the staying power one has or if quite frequently tend to over position size, the greater the psychological effects can play a major role which, is precisely why traders make irrational decisions to begin with.

Commissions is what you have to pay-to-play so can't see why it would even be a factor.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to tlopez51 for this post:
 
  #30 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Switzerland
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Investor/RT
Broker: IB / DTN
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 5,046 since Feb 2012
Thanks: 5,114 given, 10,569 received


I have some friends trading forex with a well known german broker - on ONE account -
(and yes - there are several brokers offering this possibility) having a forex position and putting
in the hedge position
of the same size in the opposite direction just to block
their "wins" or "losses" while there were no longer at the computer.
Coming back to the screen they dump the position running in the false direction.

Of course I could never understand this behaviour as the spread and commission part
was not really "HOMO Oeconomicus like"

Anyway - every trader has a different attempt

GFIs1

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to GFIs1 for this post:



futures io Trading Community Traders Hideout Emini and Emicro Index > Long and Short Positions at the Same Time?




Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

Free BloodHound Licenses to everyone!

June
 

Every journal equals ten meals for the hungry

June
     



Copyright © 2020 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts