Trading the new CME E-Micro's (E micro) MES, MNQ, MYM, M2K and other micros - futures io
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Trading the new CME E-Micro's (E micro) MES, MNQ, MYM, M2K and other micros


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Trading the new CME E-Micro's (E micro) MES, MNQ, MYM, M2K and other micros

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  #201 (permalink)
 bobarian 
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mattz View Post
If the micro eminis could provide liquidity, it could serve as a good solution. This is what I am curious about most, what liquidity will it have.

I agree with your point that traders sooner than later should have skin in the game to experience what real trading is like and to improve their method in real time. But, it is not the size of the contract that is their obstacle in my opinion:
1) It's going through the motions while their position is fluctuations in the market place. It's a pure mind and psychology challenge.
2) The feeling they are never ready. I have spoken to people who spent years in front of the screen (without trading) thinking that they are missing an element that would make them successful if they paper traded a little more or explored more angles. KISS is not what they do.

So the reason I added FX is that many are capable of trading real funds, but their risk capital is small. I hope that over time as they build their net worth, they could potentially afford to trade with adequate capital.

As you mentioned, the paper traders who build new methods while trading real capital, have a completely different angle on paper trading.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

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All good stuff guys.
I trades forex for the past year.I think forex is ok if you are trading decent size swings.Trying to daytrade though didnt work for me because in the usa , the spreads are high.
I followed the cl for a long time, and executed on the qm.The liquidity for the cl isnt huge.The liquidity for qm is really thin...but it was good enough to daytrade.Sure, you could get smacked at times, but that can happen on the cl as well.
My thought is, if the qm and the m6e have liquidity to daytrade, than i would be really surprised if the micros didnt have decent liquidity.
Of course, i may be wrong..I think also, if you are scalping 2 or 3 ticks, thats a whole different story..We shall see!
just my 2 cents

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  #202 (permalink)
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bobarian View Post
All good stuff guys.
I trades forex for the past year.I think forex is ok if you are trading decent size swings.Trying to daytrade though didnt work for me because in the usa , the spreads are high.
I followed the cl for a long time, and executed on the qm.The liquidity for the cl isnt huge.The liquidity for qm is really thin...but it was good enough to daytrade.Sure, you could get smacked at times, but that can happen on the cl as well.
My thought is, if the qm and the m6e have liquidity to daytrade, than i would be really surprised if the micros didnt have decent liquidity.
Of course, i may be wrong..I think also, if you are scalping 2 or 3 ticks, thats a whole different story..We shall see!
just my 2 cents

I am sure we have a few micro traders on the FX currencies, but honestly, it rarely comes up in conversations, so it would be hard for me to judge whether it has the liquidity for day traders. If you traded the Micro FX with little slippage as a day trader, it would be somewhat surprising. If you are a long term trader or swing, then I see the merits of such contract sizes.

I agree that many FX companies have large FX spreads for retail traders, but this is also why we avoided entering this arena until recently with the introduction of IG Markets in the USA. We recently reached a clearing arrangement with them, and we have studied and published their trading platform. Their spreads are .8 to .9 pips on the majors. I think they will be a massive competition for the current brokers. We will have all the details on our site soon.

For Crude, yes, Futures provide much better liquidity than many CFDs overseas.

Matt Z
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Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #203 (permalink)
weathers343
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They should have made the micros 1/5 of an emini as opposed to 1/10. That would make the broker fees more palatable. Did they not consider the disproportionately excessive cost traders will be subjected to? If the intention was to lower the barrier to entry for futures, they shot themselves and potential micro traders in the foot with this short-sighted decision. Brokers are the only winners here... At 50 cents a side I'll be paying 3 times the cost of trading the eminis. For people paying 1.50 or more per side (which is what most retail traders they are supposedly targeting pay), it's game over.

(0.5 + .22) x 2 x 10 = $14.4

(1.5 + .22) x 2 x 10 = $34.4 to buy and sell the equivalent of one emini which normally costs less than $5

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  #204 (permalink)
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weathers343 View Post
They should have made the micros 1/5 of an emini as opposed to 1/10. That would make the broker fees more palatable. Did they not consider the disproportionately excessive cost traders will be subjected to? If the intention was to lower the barrier to entry for futures, they shot themselves and potential micro traders in the foot with this short-sighted decision. Brokers are the only winners here... At 50 cents a side I'll be paying 3 times the cost of trading the eminis. For people paying 1.50 or more per side (which is what most retail traders they are supposedly targeting pay), it's game over.

Does CME care about brokers? Some individuals that I know there are super helpful.But, they are individuals.

Most of the commissions goes to the CME when it comes to deep discount trading. So I propose to see whether the CME will match their clearing rate as well with the notional size of this contract. So at 1.18 per side on the regular ES, let's see if they match it with 11.8 cents per side or 23.6 cents RT on Micro. Then you can ask whether they genuinely created a product to assist the little guy.

Matt Z
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  #205 (permalink)
apac
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mattz View Post
Their spreads are .8 to .9 pips on the majors.

That's pretty wide for anyone scalping FX.

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  #206 (permalink)
apac
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tpredictor View Post
Leverage is not the problem. It is the lack of granularity.

Very correct. That is why FX spot is so popular. Any bet size you like starting at $1000. At ECN brokers you get 0.0 to 0.2 pip spreads on majors. But it is the commission that kills the deal for high turnover traders. I guess roughly the equivalent as paying $10 RT on e-min sp. Almost a tick. Not good deal for day traders.

Edit: the best spread I have seen on e-mini CFD's is 0.5, so double the min tick size. Zero comms. So... not too bad if you trade for longer swings. Not great for 4 pip scalps. Always the risk of the "broker" playing against your position and ticking up for stops (every win you have is a loss for him). I tried it for a while. It was nice to place any bet size I wanted from $1000 and up.

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  #207 (permalink)
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apac View Post
That's pretty wide for anyone scalping FX.

In the USA, it is as low we have it unless you are an ECP with institutional rates.
Also, there are rebates for those who do high vol.
Outside the USA, they add commissions and when you get stopped out your slippage is above average.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

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Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #208 (permalink)
apac
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Matt - Comms, yes. But usually only at ECN's. Book runner CFD shops just charge spreads. And run your stops.

Slip, not that bad IME, maybe 0.1-0.2 ticks on a bad day at an ECN broker. Like I said above it it is their comms that can kill. Best I have seen for retail FX if you trade $1m turnover a month is about $5 per $100,000 notional and 0.1pip spreads. So still has a worse bro/tick ratio than ES.

Best of luck expanding the retail services landscape in the US It is lacking.


josh View Post
... you are trading at 290:1 leverage. This is dangerous, and not much different than OTC forex dealers who offer similar levels of leverage.

True, but a BIG advantage of very high leverage at fX brokers is that you do not need to keep much cash with the broker. From the traders perspective, you are appropriately capitalized on the risk capital you have available, 90% of which is ring-fenced in your own bank account. From the brokers perspective, you are trading 500:1, or what ever. Keeping too much cash at a broker is a credit risk*. And you often don't earn any interest on it.

* I had money at PFGBest when they collapsed. And CFD brokers collapse often enough (recently Halifax).

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  #209 (permalink)
AbdeL
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AMPFUTURES REALLY REALLY ROCKS !!

everything you want to know is already on their website

Micro E-mini S&P 500 MES

Daytrading margin is only 40$

comissions is 0.40 usd per side for all Micro E-mini so thats very very good

And thats a huge opportunity for all the beginners and new traders to trade in a regulated markets with low comission and low risk.

because every trader star with small amounts and focus on learning to trade properly first. can develop solid trading skills habits and eventually real confidence,

and kill that psychological quirks That affect his Trading.

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  #210 (permalink)
vptrader
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AbdeL View Post
AMPFUTURES REALLY REALLY ROCKS !!

everything you want to know is already on their website

Micro E-mini S&P 500 MES

Daytrading margin is only 40$

comissions is 0.40 usd per side for all Micro E-mini so thats very very good

And thats a huge opportunity for all the beginners and new traders to trade in a regulated markets with low comission and low risk.

because every trader star with small amounts and focus on learning to trade properly first. can develop solid trading skills habits and eventually real confidence,

and kill that psychological quirks That affect his Trading.

Sounds very reasonable for sure .... I wonder will they extend those commissions to the Micro currency contracts.

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  #211 (permalink)
AbdeL
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vptrader View Post
Sounds very reasonable for sure .... I wonder will they extend those commissions to the Micro currency contracts.



yeah sure its reasonable commission
even with this high commissions on Micro currency futures contracts i see its far better than trading Fx,
and my point of view is better to trade on a exchange regulated market.
also if anyone still wants to trade fx and dont know which broker to choose
its better to go with an ib like Optimusfutures they do all the work for you.

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  #212 (permalink)
 Nostar123 
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Spoke with interactive brokers regarding commissions and got this reply:

Yes, the micro emini future as well as the whole product family will be available at Interactive Brokers. The all-in pricing will be between 0.31 USD and 0.46 USD per contract. We will inform you as soon as more details will be available.

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  #213 (permalink)
 Rrrracer 
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AbdeL View Post
Micro E-mini S&P 500 MES

Daytrading margin is only 40$

comissions is 0.40 usd per side for all Micro E-mini so thats very very good


Nostar123 View Post
The all-in pricing will be between 0.31 USD and 0.46 USD per contract.

Looks like they're going out of their way to generate some liquidity right off the bat.


vptrader View Post
Sounds very reasonable for sure .... I wonder will they extend those commissions to the Micro currency contracts.

It would certainly make them more viable from a day trading standpoint. Time to start beating them up about it LOL...

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  #214 (permalink)
 centaurer 
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I think it is easy to forget we are all pions.
There is almost 38k of open interest on the big S&P right now at $700k+ a car.

Between the big contract, ES and SPY there needs to be a reason for these to hang around. If you(by "you" I don't mean us, I mean hedge funds) need a fraction of ES you can already do that with much finer granularity with SPY.

These contracts are not going to be successful because of the demand from retail that can't afford ES.I would think it has to cut into SPY's business at the institutional level. That will not be easy by any means.

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  #215 (permalink)
 centaurer 
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tpredictor View Post
@josh

As an aside, it is not the leverage that makes futures so difficult to trade-- it is the lack of granularity. People confuse this all the time and think high leverage is what causes traders difficulty. Leverage is not the problem. It is the lack of granularity.

Sorry, I just don't think that is correct.

Any instrument is hard to trade because most people are using losing systems that have an optimal bet size of zero.

The farther you get away from zero with your bet sizing the quicker your bottom line will converge to the true win rate of a losing system. Of course having finer control over the amount of leverage will let losing systems pretend to be winning systems longer.

You can't make a losing system profitable with bet sizing but you can make a winning system unprofitable by over betting.

The leverage is exactly what makes futures harder because of the added chance of over betting winning systems, turning them into losing systems.

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  #216 (permalink)
 srgtroy 
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centaurer View Post
I think it is easy to forget we are all pions.
There is almost 38k of open interest on the big S&P right now at $700k+ a car.

Between the big contract, ES and SPY there needs to be a reason for these to hang around. If you(by "you" I don't mean us, I mean hedge funds) need a fraction of ES you can already do that with much finer granularity with SPY.

These contracts are not going to be successful because of the demand from retail that can't afford ES.I would think it has to cut into SPY's business at the institutional level. That will not be easy by any means.

If you accept that the S & P 500 Index is the single best proxy for the global market, then you will have two choices to play that proxy with lower leverage -- micro-ES and SPY. The most efficient system always wins and micro-ES, with its 24 hour cycle, will more efficiently act as a proxy for the global market then SPY (although at first its prices will be a function of the Emini). That said, SPY has a massive first mover advantage and it will take some time, probably years, for micros-ES to catch up. But I think it will be a viable trading vehicle from the start for those seeking lower leverage or greater granularity.

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  #217 (permalink)
 Opstar 
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centaurer View Post
I think it is easy to forget we are all pions.
There is almost 38k of open interest on the big S&P right now at $700k+ a car.

Between the big contract, ES and SPY there needs to be a reason for these to hang around. If you(by "you" I don't mean us, I mean hedge funds) need a fraction of ES you can already do that with much finer granularity with SPY.

These contracts are not going to be successful because of the demand from retail that can't afford ES.I would think it has to cut into SPY's business at the institutional level. That will not be easy by any means.

Institutions are going to keep the spread tight for this new instrument because unlike the other micro contracts, emini has tremendous volume already and the micro has the same tick increments.

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  #218 (permalink)
weathers343
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centaurer View Post
I think it is easy to forget we are all pions.
There is almost 38k of open interest on the big S&P right now at $700k+ a car.

Between the big contract, ES and SPY there needs to be a reason for these to hang around. If you(by "you" I don't mean us, I mean hedge funds) need a fraction of ES you can already do that with much finer granularity with SPY.

These contracts are not going to be successful because of the demand from retail that can't afford ES.I would think it has to cut into SPY's business at the institutional level. That will not be easy by any means.

The lower margin requirement to hold a micro es contract vs spy is a major advantage. This benefits both institutional and retail traders. Plus the micro has 24 hour trading and twice the granularity of spy. If the fees are comparable, the micro es beats spy hands down.

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  #219 (permalink)
roio
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Looks like amp has commissions at the following great for a small account guy like me looking to get away from option decay on spy

Micro E-mini Russell 2000M2KCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
Micro E-mini S&P 500MESCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
E-mini S&P 500 IndexESCME-GLOBEXUSD 1.70 3.40
Micro E-mini DowMYMCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
Micro E-mini Nasdaq-100MNQCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54

portal.ampclearing.com/account/commissionquote.aspx

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  #220 (permalink)
 mbondiett 
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roio View Post
Looks like amp has commissions at the following great for a small account guy like me looking to get away from option decay on spy

Micro E-mini Russell 2000M2KCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
Micro E-mini S&P 500MESCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
E-mini S&P 500 IndexESCME-GLOBEXUSD 1.70 3.40
Micro E-mini DowMYMCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54
Micro E-mini Nasdaq-100MNQCME-GLOBEXUSD 0.27 0.54

portal.ampclearing.com/account/commissionquote.aspx

Thanks @roio. The link you listed did not work for me. Maybe because I cannot log in.

I did find this link though that lists every product.

https://portal.ampclearing.com/account/commissionQuote.aspx

I would not expect that this list is exactly what we can expect but hopefully pretty close.

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  #221 (permalink)
ranger64
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According to the Amp futures cost calculator, ALL IN commissions with CQG/Sierrachart for the new Micro Emini contracts are only 0.15 per side for large accounts (above 25K). I just talked to a guy through AMP chat and asked if this is a mistake, as the normal commissions per side are 0.40 for small accounts, but he confirmed, 0.15 is the actual ALL IN commission if you put 25K in your account (0.13 for > 1000 contracts, 0.12 for > 5000, 0.11 for >10000).

That is equivalent to 1.50 per side for the normal Emini contracts, which actually cost 1.80 per side for <1000 contracts/25K accounts at Amp.

So no matter how many contracts you trade, you will save a lot by substituting each Emini contract with 10 Micro contracts



Mini Dow Jones $5YMCBOT-GLOBEX USD
<1000: 1.80 (Micro contract: 0.15) 1001-4999: 1.65 (Micro contract: 0.13) 5000-9999: 1.55 (Micro contract: 0.12) >10000: 1.45 (Micro contract: 0.11)

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  #222 (permalink)
 AlexSobol 
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I wonder what commission will be with Ninjatrader Brokerage

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  #223 (permalink)
 madankumars 
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AlexSobol View Post
I wonder what commission will be with Ninjatrader Brokerage

I am wondering the same. Curious if anyone reached out to them already...

my FCM is Dorman. is this a good time to switch? any reasons if/why I should

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  #224 (permalink)
ranger64
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I just did a bit of math. If you currently do 50 roundturns per day with an Emini contract, that's 1000 rt per month, 2000 contracts per month, equals 20,000 Micro contracts per month, your average all in commission with AMP would be 0.1185 cents per side, the equivalent of 1.18 per side trading the normal Emini contract

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  #225 (permalink)
ranger64
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CME/CBOT and NFA fees for the Micro Emini futures are 0.22 per side, so I wonder how AMP can actually offer 0.15 and lower per side? Probably just an introductory offer?

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  #226 (permalink)
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ranger64 View Post
CME/CBOT and NFA fees for the Micro Emini futures are 0.22 per side, so I wonder how AMP can actually offer 0.15 and lower per side? Probably just an introductory offer?

Commissions do not cover exchange fees, unless you get a specific all in RT.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #227 (permalink)
ranger64
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mattz View Post
Commissions do not cover exchange fees, unless you get a specific all in RT.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Actually they do cover exchange fees, at least that's what they told me. I asked twice. Take a look at the AMP cost calculator, those are the ALL IN fees, but only for accounts 25K and up




Chat started:
(08:39:25 AM) lukas : Hi, you confirmed yesterday that the new micro eminis are 0.15 ALL IN and lower per side for large accounts above 25K as stated in your cost calculator. Just wanted to check again if this is correct, as exchange and NFA fees alone for the micro futures are 0.22 per side
(08:39:34 AM) *** AMP | Jeff joined the chat ***
(08:40:04 AM) AMP | Jeff: yes Lukas, its correct
(08:40:18 AM) lukas: so is this just an introductory offer?
(08:40:42 AM) AMP | Jeff: yes, it can change
(08:41:06 AM) lukas : I see, ok thanks
(08:41:17 AM) AMP | Jeff: you are welcome
(08:41:27 AM) lukas : Have a nice day
(08:41:33 AM) AMP | Jeff: you as well

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Actually they do cover exchange fees, at least that's what they told me. I asked twice. Take a look at the AMP cost calculator, those are the ALL IN fees, but only for accounts 25K and up

I am not sure how the exchange is 20 cents per side, but commissions are 15 cents.
Not meaning to question their integrity because I am also their IB, but numbers are numbers, and no one is going to pay you to trade. Will ask the desk there and update.

Matt Z
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apac
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((25000*i/36000*n) - (25000*0/36000*n))>0 might address part of how they can offer below exchange cost for large accounts.

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ranger64
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apac View Post
((25000*i/36000*n) - (25000*0/36000*n))>0 might address part of how they can offer below exchange cost for large accounts.


And they confirmed its only an introductory offer

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apac
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ranger64 View Post
And they confirmed its only an introductory offer

That also

But I don't trust anything I read on the AMP commission calculator webpage. They have numerous quoted commissions that are 100 times lower than actual. All due to what appears to be incredibly sloppy calculation work, and zero attention to detail.

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hurleydood
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AlexSobol View Post
I wonder what commission will be with Ninjatrader Brokerage

According to the Commission Templates on NT8 on the lifetime license the all in rate is 85 cents per contact for all Micros E-Mini. The standard 53 cent commission will still apply.

AMP charges 37 cents on the flat rate account.
Tradovate charges 56 cents on the free membership.
NinjaTrader charges 85 cents on the lifetime license.

All above is all in with the routing fee.

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kazz
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AbdeL View Post
yeah sure its reasonable commission
even with this high commissions on Micro currency futures contracts i see its far better than trading Fx,
and my point of view is better to trade on a exchange regulated market.
also if anyone still wants to trade fx and dont know which broker to choose
its better to go with an ib like Optimusfutures they do all the work for you.

But they won't have the liquidity or volume that forex offers smaller accounts..

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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 willphule 
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hurleydood View Post
NinjaTrader charges 85 cents on the lifetime license.

All above is all in with the routing fee.

Mine says 0.41 for lifetime license (in the commission template).

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AbdeL View Post
yeah sure its reasonable commission
even with this high commissions on Micro currency futures contracts i see its far better than trading Fx,
and my point of view is better to trade on a exchange regulated market.
also if anyone still wants to trade fx and dont know which broker to choose
its better to go with an ib like Optimusfutures they do all the work for you.

We would gladly recommend a clearing to match with the person's needs whether FX or Futures.

Thanks,
Matt Z
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Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 bob7123 
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For what it's worth, here is an excerpt from a conversation with NT brokerage which may stimulate some grey matter. Or not but here ya go:

[I have a lifetime license BTW, which affects commission rates. Also, I haven't decided where I will trade E-Micros, I am providing this merely for illustration.]

Hi Dan,

Sounds reasonable. From my trading perspective, I look at your E-mini commission as .75 tick per round turn:

($1.83*2)/$5.00 = .75

Whereas the E-micro has a 1.6 tick per round turn commission

($.41*2)/$.50 = 1.62

Of course E-micro isn’t going to be as good as the E-mini, but still reasonable. To break even with a plan using the E-micros will require an additional .9 tick of expectancy, assuming good liquidity and the same spread. (yet to be seen but I’m hopeful)

On the upside, if I can get a good track record with E-micros, I can look forward to another .9 ticks of expectancy when I “graduate” to E-minis.

Thanks for your help,

-Bob

------------------------------------

Bob,

Thanks for the info. As I’m sure you can guess, the CME is releasing these contracts to give novice traders a lower barrier to enter the futures market.

For more experienced traders, one of the main benefits of these micro contracts is that you can offset your E-mini positions with these micro contracts. This allows you to scale in and out a bit easier.

Sincerely,
Dan

------------------------

So there you have it. I realize I'm guessing about liquidity in the E-micros, but with barriers to to becoming a market maker lower then ever, I think it will be there.

One thing I hadn't considered was combined Mini/Micro positions, with apparently NT has considered. Maybe the Micro to Mini "graduation" will not be a single event, but more of a transition. Hmmm.

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hurleydood
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willphule View Post
Mine says 0.41 for lifetime license (in the commission template).

There you go. They updated it. I see the same thing.

Bonus: it looks like they lowered the micro fx futures commission too. Some of the regular contracts where lowered by a penny. Updating my own spread sheet. Interactive Brokers is still cheaper by a 4 cents at the moment for these fx micros at 33 cents. AMP is still 4 cents cheaper for the Micro E-minis at 37 cents.

M6E $0.81 -> $0.37
M6A $0.81 -> $0.37
M6B $0.81 -> $0.37
MGC $0.85 -> $0.41

MES $0.85 -> $0.41
MYM $0.85 -> $0.41
MNQ $0.85 -> $0.41
M2K $0.85 -> $0.41

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stoptions
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Where do you see these rates on NT? I checked their website and the pdf has not been updated since 4/5/2019.

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hurleydood
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stoptions View Post
Where do you see these rates on NT? I checked their website and the pdf has not been updated since 4/5/2019.

The NT8 Commissions Template screen.
Find it under NT8 "Tools -> Commissions"

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stoptions
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hurleydood View Post
The NT8 Commissions Template screen.
Find it under NT8 "Tools -> Commissions"

Thanks. I have never looked at that.

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AlexSobol View Post
I wonder what commission will be with Ninjatrader Brokerage

We will be updating the www.ninjatrader.com website with lower commission rates for all micro products as early as this afternoon but no later than Monday.

Risk Disclosure: Futures and forex trading involves significant risk of loss and is not appropriate for everyone.
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chobanee
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Looks like IB has updated their commissions for fixed structure,

CME: MES, MNQ, M2K
CBOT: MYM
NYMEX: MGC, SIL

0.25 USD

Exchange fees .22 per side, so all in should be .47 each side.

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hurleydood
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Ninjatrader is the commission rate increase by 6 cents apply to all customers or new customers?

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apac
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bob7123 View Post

For more experienced traders, one of the main benefits of these micro contracts is that you can offset your E-mini positions with these micro contracts. This allows you to scale in and out a bit easier.

It is true that the micro offers a virtually zero basis-risk hedge for the mini.

It is also perhaps true that the above quoted text from NT is classic broker-speak, bless them

"The benefit if this product is that it will generate more commissions for us if we 'educate' customers to be 'sophisticated' and use the micro as a position scaling-out or temporary partial risk-off hedge tool v.s. an open mini position"

For goodness sake, if the micro is that liquid and has equivalent commission-efficiency for the trader, then people will just trade the micro and scale in and out with greater granularity thanks to the smaller size. The mini will get crowded-out - to a degree - as a result.

ps, today, CME's reported earnings fell 17% Q1. They need this ES micro product to fly where their other micro-contract hopes have flunked. They are competing for retail revenue with the ETF universe and nano-CFD's of myriad specifications, and the tyranny of time-zone (they provide exchange services in products that are most liquid for only a fraction of the day when most retail accounts want to trade, and in products that are mostly of US-domestic interest).

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 christhesquid 
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NT Brokerage View Post
We will be updating the www.ninjatrader.com website with lower commission rates for all micro products as early as this afternoon but no later than Monday.


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hurleydood
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Here is the latest commission rates. https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatrader_futures_commissions.pdf
They will be charging all in rate of 41 cents for the micro eminis. They have also raised the cost of all other products.

The commission efficiency going to happen because 10 micros would cost you $4.10 vs 1 emini would cost you $1.89.
I like the idea of scaling in and out with these. CME presentation said that you can buy 1 emini and scale out with 10 micros to go flat.

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apac
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Are the micro and mini fungible?

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hurleydood
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apac View Post
Are the micro and mini fungible?

I believe if you buy 10 micro then sell 1 mini, your position would be open but hedged.
But if you buy 1 mini then sell 10 micros, your position would be closed.

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  #249 (permalink)
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hurleydood View Post
Ninjatrader is the commission rate increase by 6 cents apply to all customers or new customers?

New customers.

Disclosure: This communication is sent to you by NinjaTrader, LLC, a software development company which owns and supports all proprietary technology relating to and including the NinjaTrader trading platform.
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apac
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I believe if you buy 10 micro then sell 1 mini, your position would be open but hedged.
But if you buy 1 mini then sell 10 micros, your position would be closed.

If fungible, I wondered how they would deal with partial offset. There is no such thing as being long 0.6 ESU9 after selling 4 micros against a 1 lot long ES. And to convert a 1 lot ES position into 6 Micro's would be surely complicated at the clearing house? So the all-or-nothing approach you describe makes more sense. I wonder how the many retail trading platforms are going to deal with this? The two symbols net to zero, but only if in a 10:1 ratio.

And Order Flow analysis implications...

- if many intraday traders get long ES over a 10 minute period, the eventual opposing ES sell order flow may only be evident in the micro order flow? Gorge in the ES, puke in the micro???

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weathers343
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hurleydood View Post
Here is the latest commission rates.
They will be charging all in rate of 41 cents for the micro eminis. They have also raised the cost of all other products.

The commission efficiency going to happen because 10 micros would cost you $4.10 vs 1 emini would cost you $1.89.
I like the idea of scaling in and out with these. CME presentation said that you can buy 1 emini and scale out with 10 micros to go flat.


Is the 41 cents per side or round trip?

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weathers343
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hurleydood View Post
According to the Commission Templates on NT8 on the lifetime license the all in rate is 85 cents per contact for all Micros E-Mini. The standard 53 cent commission will still apply.

AMP charges 37 cents on the flat rate account.
Tradovate charges 56 cents on the free membership.
NinjaTrader charges 85 cents on the lifetime license.

All above is all in with the routing fee.

Per side or round trip?

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 Craco 
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The price of the micro MES juni is 2917,5, the ES price closed is 2949,25.. Hmm, nice start looks bad....

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hurleydood
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Per side or round trip?

Per side https://ninjatrader.com/PDF/ninjatrader_futures_commissions.pdf

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hurleydood
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apac View Post
If fungible, I wondered how they would deal with partial offset. There is no such thing as being long 0.6 ESU9 after selling 4 micros against a 1 lot long ES. And to convert a 1 lot ES position into 6 Micro's would be surely complicated at the clearing house? So the all-or-nothing approach you describe makes more sense. I wonder how the many retail trading platforms are going to deal with this? The two symbols net to zero, but only if in a 10:1 ratio.

And Order Flow analysis implications...

- if many intraday traders get long ES over a 10 minute period, the eventual opposing ES sell order flow may only be evident in the micro order flow? Gorge in the ES, puke in the micro???

Software side will be an issue. You would probably be hedged and after the close the position could close out internally. We will just have to wait and see.

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 Zanu 
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  #257 (permalink)
apac
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1 ES <> 10 MES.

Transaction costs are not the same. So to a degree, price should not be the same either. One could calculate the expected difference with some assumptions.

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 bob7123 
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apac View Post
It is true that the micro offers a virtually zero basis-risk hedge for the mini.

It is also perhaps true that the above quoted text from NT is classic broker-speak, bless them

"The benefit if this product is that it will generate more commissions for us if we 'educate' customers to be 'sophisticated' and use the micro as a position scaling-out or temporary partial risk-off hedge tool v.s. an open mini position"

For goodness sake, if the micro is that liquid and has equivalent commission-efficiency for the trader, then people will just trade the micro and scale in and out with greater granularity thanks to the smaller size. The mini will get crowded-out - to a degree - as a result.

ps, today, CME's reported earnings fell 17% Q1. They need this ES micro product to fly where their other micro-contract hopes have flunked. They are competing for retail revenue with the ETF universe and nano-CFD's of myriad specifications, and the tyranny of time-zone (they provide exchange services in products that are most liquid for only a fraction of the day when most retail accounts want to trade, and in products that are mostly of US-domestic interest).

Micros will still cost you an extra tick per round turn. If you've got so much expectancy that this doesn't matter to you then please post your trading system!

Separately, if you read the first part of the thread, you'll see micros are hardly an idea of the week; they've been in the pipeline a long time. And FWIW, even if they prove to be very popular, revenue wise they will be a flea on the butt of an elephant. So I can't agree the notion that this is a scam by a desperate company.

Frankly, I think you are a bit cynical. That's fine, but again FWIW, I haven't seen many cynical traders out there banking solid profits.

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hurleydood
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apac View Post
1 ES <> 10 MES.

Transaction costs are not the same. So to a degree, price should not be the same either. One could calculate the expected difference with some assumptions.

Price may not match but they should move together close to point for point.

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 sptrader 
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I think it will take at least a few weeks for the MES to build enough volume to narrow the point spread to something very close to the ES, but I expect that it will happen soon.
The MES should be great for testing trading systems & trading ideas, without ever needing to use a sim acct.

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 tpredictor 
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Here's an idea, instead of paying $400/month to trade on the simulator to what likely amounts to a fake prop firm-- just trade the micros with optimal fractional kelly position sizing.

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assetmaple
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Well, I went on to IB to possibly trade a MES and order not accepted "only allowed for certain testing accounts" ...

It's not like they didnt know this was coming. Annoying. The volumes traded so far as quoting as very low although could certainly be wrong on TWS. MYM shows 0 volume.

I wonder if they will have this up and going for regular session tomorrow...

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 garyboy275 
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For those wanting to trade Micros most firms are not going to allow it until Tuesday open, so chill out. I know its exciting sunday open with the news, but firms need to be ready to test it live before they offer it to you.

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Dvdkite
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sptrader View Post
The MES should be great for testing trading systems & trading ideas, without ever needing to use a sim acct.

This is absolutely the most interesting thing!!! Testing trading system could became painless compared to big contracts testing!

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 cory 
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there are volume on micro at pre market

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 xevanchan 
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garyboy275 View Post
For those wanting to trade Micros most firms are not going to allow it until Tuesday open, so chill out. I know its exciting sunday open with the news, but firms need to be ready to test it live before they offer it to you.

Anyone know which brokers will be allowing customers to trade micros on Monday?

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 illogsamples 
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I did not expect this much activity so early on tbh. I am posting this early EU morning

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ranger64
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Anyone know which brokers will be allowing customers to trade micros on Monday?

I placed some test live limit orders away from the market (Amp/Sierrachart/CQG). Orders are being accepted.

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 Obelixtrader 
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Anyone know which brokers will be allowing customers to trade micros on Monday?


IBKR

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 AlexSobol 
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ES 512 tick ≈ MES 10 tick

At least the same price.

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  #271 (permalink)
 lemons 
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AlexSobol View Post
ES 512 tick ≈ MES 10 tick

At least the same price.

Can you post also YM = MYM ?

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 AlexSobol 
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lemons View Post
Can you post also YM = MYM ?

DOM doesn't work for me.

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  #273 (permalink)
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Anyone know which brokers will be allowing customers to trade micros on Monday?

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 ea0680 
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I am interested in seeing how the new micro eminis will start trading today, however I do not see the new micro emini contracts in Ninjatrader 7.0 version instrument manager. I installed latest version of Ninja 7.0 (.40), but still do not see the new Micro eminis listed. Am I missing something or doing something wrong?

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 Balanar 
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ea0680 View Post
I am interested in seeing how the new micro eminis will start trading today, however I do not see the new micro emini contracts in Ninjatrader 7.0 version instrument manager. I installed latest version of Ninja 7.0 (.40), but still do not see the new Micro eminis listed. Am I missing something or doing something wrong?

Reset Instruments!

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 ea0680 
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Will try that - Thanks!

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  #277 (permalink)
 cory 
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Needs latest NT7 V 40

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 Mtype 
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This is a very welcome addition. The new MES looks great, on my data it is matching pretty much tick by tick the ES with about 10% volume, which is expected to grow.

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 ea0680 
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Resetting the instruments worked in Ninja 7.0 as I can now track the micros. After watching MES in the Dom for a few minutes now, I have to admit that I am surprised to see such volume, small spread and deep order book numbers on its first day trading.

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 AlexSobol 
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Not bad

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 Massive l 
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All index micros working in thinkorswim

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 Rrrracer 
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AlexSobol View Post
Not bad


I'd say maybe better than expected all things considered.

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 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
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garyboy275 View Post
For those wanting to trade Micros most firms are not going to allow it until Tuesday open, so chill out. I know its exciting sunday open with the news, but firms need to be ready to test it live before they offer it to you.

I was wondering, all the hype and I couldn't find it on TOS yesterday. I'll check again this morning.

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 Arikash 
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techa View Post
I was wondering, all the hype and I couldn't find it on TOS yesterday. I'll check again this morning.

Are you using paper trading or a live account? I was unable to find /MES on the paper trading software, but in the live software /MES was trading.

Edit: This was yesterday afternoon.

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 Rexz 
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Not a fan of the spreads on these (at least NQ). Quite often looking at 3+ ticks. Maybe that will improve over time.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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Interesting 12:40pm ET


What i don't understand is how can the book looks heavier on the micros but the spread is so variable?

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hurleydood
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It's probably because the level 1 barely has liquidity.

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 Grantx 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Interesting 12:40pm ET


What i don't understand is how can the book looks heavier on the micros but the spread is so variable?

What is the spread range you are seeing?

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 Rexz 
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This is MNQ.


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 trendisyourfriend 
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Grantx View Post
What is the spread range you are seeing?

It depends what indice i am looking at. For the MES it is about 1-2 ticks most of the time, the others i have seen 3 -5 ticks. I did not make an exhaustive study but just a quick assessment at around noon ET.

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 tpredictor 
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I think the MES is looking really good in terms of volume and spreads. As long as "trend" continues, I think these are going to be a success. I haven't checked the other contracts yet.

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 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
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Arikash View Post
Are you using paper trading or a live account? I was unable to find /MES on the paper trading software, but in the live software /MES was trading.

Edit: This was yesterday afternoon.

Yes, paper account. I checked again this morning right before work and it was still not accessable on paper account.

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hurleydood
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trendisyourfriend View Post
It depends what indice i am looking at. For the MES it is about 1-2 ticks most of the time, the others i have seen 3 -5 ticks. I did not make an exhaustive study but just a quick assessment at around noon ET.

The real commitment is whats happening on best bid and ask. They keep pulling the orders.

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 lemons 
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We want it all , we want it now

Let me remind you micros are trading only 1,5 days

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  #295 (permalink)
 sptrader 
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lemons View Post
We want it all , we want it now

Let me remind you micros are trading only 1,5 days

Despite the fact that the ES micros have only been trading 1.5 days, the spreads are tradable and usually 1 tick or less.
I traded them today with a real account at IB, using entry setups from the ES and executing on the mES using IB (& Multicharts) and had no trouble scalping with limit orders. Commissions were a little expensive (approx 10% of profits), but tradable for small accounts. Stress free trading.

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 Keab 
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These figures do not include the UK session.

ES current volume today is 1.87 million.
Micro emini current volume is at 189k. Not bad at all.
Dow emini i 250k
Nasdaq 594k

So it's not massive volume but hey it's pretty good for the second day I reckon.

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 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
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One other fee to be aware of is the order routing transaction fee. CQG and Rithmic charge fees which aren't scaled. Those fees can add around 34% or more to the round trip cost. It shouldn't make or break but something to be aware of.

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  #298 (permalink)
Solidus
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Has anyone seen a fee comparison between brokers? Seems like a broad range now. Some are competitive given contract size, and others just slapped their standard emini fee on them.

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  #299 (permalink)
Solidus
Dallas Texas
 
 
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p.s. Here is a pic I snapped on the first day. Best new contract liquidity ever!


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 techa 
Wilmington, NC
 
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Arikash View Post
Are you using paper trading or a live account? I was unable to find /MES on the paper trading software, but in the live software /MES was trading.

Edit: This was yesterday afternoon.

Had to contact TD Ameritrade today. It's under /MES:XCME. made my first profitable trade (on paper)

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