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leverage amount
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Created: by shezts Attachments:2

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leverage amount

  #1 (permalink)
Temecula, Ca
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 1 given, 4 received

leverage amount

I wonder if anyone knows of a contract with considerably less leverage than the S&P e-mini, perhaps 1/5 of that?

To put it in practical terms, the typical daily range on the S&P is about 10 points, so ~ $500 for a single e-mini contract. I'm looking for something that would have a daily range of about $100, given some contract size.

Or is there perhaps an option strategy that can be used to reduce the effective leverage on the ES?

Just to clarify, SPY is too small, too much in the other direction. Given commissions, the account just isn't big enough to make trading SPY work, otherwise that would of course be the answer.

tia

Shezts


Last edited by shezts; June 26th, 2015 at 02:47 PM. Reason: clarification
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  #2 (permalink)
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  #3 (permalink)
Medellín, CO
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Playing with eMinis, coming from Options
 
Posts: 76 since Jun 2015
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shezts View Post
I wonder if anyone knows of a contract with considerably less leverage than the S&P e-mini, perhaps 1/5 of that?

To put it in practical terms, the typical daily range on the S&P is about 10 points, so ~ $500 for a single e-mini contract. I'm looking for something that would have a daily range of about $100, given some contract size.

Or is there perhaps an option strategy that can be used to reduce the effective leverage on the ES?

Just to clarify, SPY is too small, too much in the other direction. Given commissions, the account just isn't big enough to make trading SPY work, otherwise that would of course be the answer.

tia

Shezts

I'm simming NQ, it's more directional. $20 vs $50 per point but does do good fluctuation of 3-8 point moves per 1000 ticks with a consistent 50+ point daily range and not a lot of big money so less manipulation.

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  #4 (permalink)
Temecula, Ca
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 1 given, 4 received

I see your point and it's a good suggestion, but for the way I trade the advantage would be small. I would risk perhaps 30% less on a typical stop with NQ vs ES.

But you did get me thinking about QQQ, which might be the sweet spot in this case.

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  #5 (permalink)
Cyprus
 
 
Posts: 68 since Jul 2013


shezts View Post
To put it in practical terms, the typical daily range on the S&P is about 10 points, so ~ $500 for a single e-mini contract. I'm looking for something that would have a daily range of about $100, given some contract size.
Shezts

Adjust your risk.

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  #6 (permalink)
Temecula, Ca
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2012
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solotrader View Post
Adjust your risk.

This whole question is about adjusting risk. You may mean "trade fewer contracts", which is a good answer but not the one I'm looking for here. I'm looking to improve the precision with which I can adjust risk.

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  #7 (permalink)
Dallas,TX
 
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, OpenQuant
Broker/Data: Zaner/Zen Fire
Favorite Futures: ES,6E,6B,GC,CL
 
Posts: 594 since Nov 2009
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shezts View Post
I wonder if anyone knows of a contract with considerably less leverage than the S&P e-mini, perhaps 1/5 of that?

To put it in practical terms, the typical daily range on the S&P is about 10 points, so ~ $500 for a single e-mini contract. I'm looking for something that would have a daily range of about $100, given some contract size.

Or is there perhaps an option strategy that can be used to reduce the effective leverage on the ES?

Just to clarify, SPY is too small, too much in the other direction. Given commissions, the account just isn't big enough to make trading SPY work, otherwise that would of course be the answer.

tia

Shezts

hello - NQ is a better choice in that case, its points are smaller than ES, but it depends on strategy, exits/targets/stops
but why cant do SPY. with an ETF, like SPY, you can trade any Dollar amount even with small account so you have more leverage

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  #8 (permalink)
Temecula, Ca
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2012
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emini_Holy_Grail View Post
hello - NQ is a better choice in that case, its points are smaller than ES, but it depends on strategy, exits/targets/stops
but why cant do SPY. with an ETF, like SPY, you can trade any Dollar amount even with small account so you have more leverage

The account is small. That's the source of all the difficulties. Imagine the minimum needed to open an account at a well known broker and you'll be in the ball park.

I don't think it would be possible to feed myself trading SPY with an account this small. I do feed myself trading this account in ES, but fearfully. I also tend to be priced out of the best trades because they're too big/choppy/fast/whatever for my tolerance.

So here and there I pick up trades and it's enough, but at the rate I'm going (because I'm also taking money out every month) it's going to be a long time before the account is big enough to trade ES comfortably .

I took some NQ trades and was able to find some cases where the stop could be managed down to something cheaper than it would have had to be in the comparable ES trade, but it wasn't by very much.

Stocks are interesting from this perspective, but then other sources of difficulty are introduced. The more I think about it the more I realize that there won't be a way around it. risk/difficulty are going to tend to measure out comparably between markets because that's what markets do.


Last edited by shezts; July 4th, 2015 at 04:08 PM. Reason: language
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  #9 (permalink)
Amman/Jordan
 
 
Posts: 39 since May 2013
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Euro stoxx 50

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  #10 (permalink)
Temecula, Ca
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2012
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Surprise View Post
Euro stoxx 50

The schedule could be a problem. But interesting - so many ways to trade it including leveraged ETFs.

which made me wonder, and ... UPRO, a 3x leveraged SPX tracking ETF, seems really good. Volume is a little thin but so what - it can't go very far on its own.

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