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Can I go back to non-professional data after paying pro data fees?
I am considering using a funded account (Topstep) for a while, but I see I would have to pay pro data fees. If I go this route, but go back to just trading my own money in the future, would I be able to switch back to paying non-pro rates?
Or will I always be considered a pro? Thanks
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
Great question. I was wondering the same thing. I understand why they consider people working for a prop firm "professional" but if you're paying for the privilege, then it isn't a real prop firm in the professional sense.
Yes of course, with TopStep you have to pay pro-fees because you trade OPM (other people money), but of course you can trade your own account at the same time und just pay non pro-fees for data.
Different countries could have different rules on the matter. I would think if you are trading "OPM" you would need to be licensed... that should be the determining factor but obviously isn't where these pay to play "prop" firms are concerned.
Also, in the US, any data I have applied for, the exchange asks if you are professional and charge accordingly. They don't ask if it's for your "personal account." My spouse is a registered sales assistant (series 7 license) but does not trade OPM per se. It only permits her to enter orders the broker she works for directs her to make. She is forbidden by her firm to make recommendations or make any decisions regarding trades. Yet, if her name is on our personal, joint account, we have to pay pro fees.
These types of questions have come up now and again for some time, and the subject is generally (and genuinely) confusing.
I went searching for some CME resources to answer them. I believe that these are current. I know the rates change, but I think these are still the policies. Discussion in my next post.
This one is the form you have to fill out to declare yourself a non-professional:
I suggest reading these two pdf's in their entirety. You may find yourself mumbling something like "What the --- ?" a few times, though.
What I take from them is that it is up to you, the subscriber, to declare what you are, although they do mention the "Distributor" also at point 8 of the FAQ..... So, I would say they are going to accept what they get. But not necessarily just from you. The entity distributing the data to you may also be involved.
Per (f) and (g) of the Self-Certification Form, this data must be used only to manage your own funds. So, if you are trading for a firm, that's not your money so the fee must be paid (I think, personally, that the firm should reimburse you for that fee or just pay it themselves, but the firms seem not to agree . )
I think that this, from the FAQ's, #10, addresses @opie1 's question:
"If a Subscriber has more than two access points to market data
on trading terminals/execution platforms per Distributor they
are considered a Professional Subscriber with each Distributor.
If the same Subscriber instead has no more than two access
points to market data on trading terminals/execution platforms
per Distributor, they may qualify as a Professional with one
Distributor, and Non-Professional with the other Distributor,
based on the rest of the criteria. Each Distributor qualifies their
Subscribers as Professional or Non-Professional. Standard Unit of
Count policies apply. "
I think this means that you can be pro in one case, but still not be in the other. Unless, of course, you are a pro anyway due to any of the other criteria. (Edit: and since you will be filling out these non-professional forms for a "Distributor" -- which I take to be a data firm like Rithmic or CQG -- then I'm not sure which you are, if you have both the pro and non-pro accounts with the same Distributor. Would the Distributor just take your word for it if you self-certified as non-pro, when you were already pro with them? I don't know, of course. Sorry.)
I think I would assume I could go back to my own account and have the same arrangements as before, but it doesn't say that anywhere. You may have to deal with this when you come to it, with customer support.
Don't blame me if all this is still not too clear.
Also, I make no guarantees that these are the actual current policies. As I recall, the separate "professional" data fees came in several years ago (these pdf's mention dates in 2014), and I know the rates have changed since then. But as far as Google -- plus my patience with the CME mess of a web site -- has allowed me to search, I think these are still the policies in force.
Bob.
When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
If you page down though, you will also see Non-Display fees and that Category A1 Trading as a principle, with a basic application is $520 month. There is a very strong argument to be made, that an automated trading system such as Tradestation or Ninja falls into this category and you should be paying the $520/month per exchange regardless of your professional standing. At this point in time, CME do not seem to be enforcing it in this way, but it's definitely written in such a way that they could if they want to.
16. NON-DISPLAY USE
i. Internal Non-Display License – Non-Display Use: non
viewable use of Information internally within Distributor’s
Group by/in any system, process, program, machine or
calculation other than in order to display or distribute
Information for display. Such use may include, but is not
limited to, calculation of P&L, portfolio valuation, order
processing, use within Automated Trading Systems and
automated order routing. Automated Trading System: any system or software
operated by Distributor or Affiliated Company that
generates and/or routes orders electronically with no,
or only de minimis human action involved in generating,
sending and/or verifying orders.
The way I read it is that that pertains specifically to Distributors... not subscribers. Section 17 is directed to subscribers.
If they went after retail users for how they use their data on their own personal computer they would have one hell of a lawsuit on their hands. It's like music being sold to you but the license requires you to listen to it at 120dB. But, they are certainly allowed to ensure that you aren't redistributing the music or altering it before redistribution.
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I can see why you would say that, I think its extremely ambiguous. Obviously the CME isn't interpreting it or at least enforcing it in the way I outlined. But I would ask do data distributors have automated trading systems?
I would think THAT is the ambiguous part. Of course they do... CQG is placing the orders on my behalf. Now, if they do their own managed account too, that's addressed in the distributor portion you quoted. Of course, I'm not an attorney
