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Need advice on CL basics


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Need advice on CL basics

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  #1 (permalink)
Raleigh, NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Interactive Brokers + Kinetick
Trading: CL/GC
 
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Hi all,

I've been trading forex for about a year, on and off. First did sim, then in September I went live. Right now I'm thinking about trading CL in a year or two using Brooks Price Action. After searching in the forum I found a lot of useful information but there are two things missing:

  1. Where can I find the basics for CL trading? Forex is the only thing I have traded, I have no idea how much more I need to know about CL, e.g.
    1. Are the best trading hours the open outcry hours 9a-2:30p EST?
    2. Are Mirus and Optimus the best brokers for US clients in terms of CL?
    3. What about data feed provider?
    4. What are the impact of news, rollover dates, and anything else specific for CL? If somebody can recommend some books, articles, threads which cover these in detail I'd be grateful.
  2. As a newbie to CL I would like to find somebody in futures.io (formerly BMT) who does trade CL using Brooks Price Action. I haven't found anybody actively doing this but again I'm new here so please kindly tell me if you know the answer
Thank you so much for your help. Have a nice weekend.

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  #3 (permalink)
Nelson, New Zealand
 
 
Posts: 47 since Jan 2012
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chaching

Crude to a trader is like the attraction of flame to a moth, chances are you will get your wings burned off. Not a market to learn on by a long shot. If you want to learn to climb, don't start with Mt. Everest.

A minimum of a 20 tick stop is required and that's tight but I know people who use a $1 and .50 that is 100 and 50 ticks (That is a $1,000 and $500 stop). You need deep pockets to trade even a single contract. I once lost 76 ticks on crude in one second. Get the idea.

The best trading hours are those that work on your setup. What is best for me and for you is two very different things.

Mirus and zenfire will work fine. The big news is the 10:30EST Wednesday crude oil inventory report.

This is NOT a market to learn on! I suggest you go trade another futures market to get the hang of futures first.

Crude is one mean SOB. You can make good money on crude but chances are you will end up like the moth in the big pile with the other dead moths.

In World War I they learned cavalry charges against machine guns didn't work but only after all of them were killed. Don't make the same mistake.

Sorry if my comments are not positive but trading is not a nicey nice business. There are no do overs and they keep score with real money. On a good note CL loves fresh meat.

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  #4 (permalink)
Tampa, FL
 
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ctnz View Post
chaching

Crude to a trader is like the attraction of flame to a moth, chances are you will get your wings burned off. Not a market to learn on by a long shot. If you want to learn to climb, don't start with Mt. Everest.

A minimum of a 20 tick stop is required and that's tight but I know people who use a $1 and .50 that is 100 and 50 ticks (That is a $1,000 and $500 stop). You need deep pockets to trade even a single contract. I once lost 76 ticks on crude in one second. Get the idea.

The best trading hours are those that work on your setup. What is best for me and for you is two very different things.

Mirus and zenfire will work fine. The big news is the 10:30EST Wednesday crude oil inventory report.

This is NOT a market to learn on! I suggest you go trade another futures market to get the hang of futures first.

Crude is one mean SOB. You can make good money on crude but chances are you will end up like the moth in the big pile with the other dead moths.

In World War I they learned cavalry charges against machine guns didn't work but only after all of them were killed. Don't make the same mistake.

Sorry if my comments are not positive but trading is not a nicey nice business. There are no do overs and they keep score with real money. On a good note CL loves fresh meat.

+1 on this

I tried to learn on CL as well, and did good on SIM, just like many other traders do. Went live and was down 50 ticks in 2 minutes. CL is a beast, second only to SI IMO. Took me a little to get my ego in check and start on a much smaller instrument. I don't think I really learned anything useful about trading futures until I switched instruments to something more beginner friendly.

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  #5 (permalink)
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
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ctnz View Post

In World War I they learned cavalry charges against machine guns didn't work but only after all of them were killed. Don't make the same mistake.

Chaching,

DOUBLE DITTO! Big Oil aint the place to start with futures!

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  #6 (permalink)
Raleigh, NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Then what futures instrument would you guys recommend for beginners? ES? Anything else?

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  #7 (permalink)
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
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chaching View Post
Then what futures instrument would you guys recommend for beginners? ES? Anything else?

my .02 says mini dow YM

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chaching View Post
Then what futures instrument would you guys recommend for beginners? ES? Anything else?

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  #9 (permalink)
Nelson, New Zealand
 
 
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chaching View Post
Then what futures instrument would you guys recommend for beginners? ES? Anything else?

Something with less volatility. If you have a setup and if you don't, what are you doing trading, take your setup and back test on different markets and see where and when it works best.

If you have traded Forex then why not trade the currencies. Try the mini Euro, 1/10th the tick of the big contract but a very cheap place to learn to trade live. If you can trade it successfully there then move to the full size. A 20 tick loss is only $25 instead of $250.

The amount of the win is not important in the least, consistency is everything. You just add contracts as your account gets bigger. Runners are your big money makers. People seem to think they will make a million dollars a year trading a few contracts and taking 50 ticks on every trade. Ain't gonna happen so don't even think it, much less try it. If you can take 10 ticks a day consistently you can easily make 6 figures. Good traders don't trade more, they trade less. As your account grows so does your confidence and experience.

If you haven't back tested your setup you are either lazy, stupid, or both. I appreciate you are asking for help but get off your ass and do your own homework instead of asking to see ours. If you think trading is just clicking a mouse a few times a day and the cash will come flowing in door you got it way wrong. There is a lot of hard work with no shortcuts, and most of it is front loaded meaning you do it up front. I played blackjack for a living and we used to say "it was a hard way to make an easy living" but that isn't anything compared to trading.

I will get down now from my soapbox and end my tirade. Until you have invested blood, sweat and tears you are going nowhere. I am not apologizing for what I have said because I believe it is the truth, but I did let you have it with both barrels and maybe you didn't deserve that. Luckily it was only rock salt instead of 00 buckshot.

Good trading

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chaching View Post
Hi all,

I've been trading forex for about a year, on and off. First did sim, then in September I went live. Right now I'm thinking about trading CL in a year or two using Brooks Price Action. After searching in the forum I found a lot of useful information but there are two things missing:

  1. Where can I find the basics for CL trading? Forex is the only thing I have traded, I have no idea how much more I need to know about CL, e.g.
    1. Are the best trading hours the open outcry hours 9a-2:30p EST?
    2. Are Mirus and Optimus the best brokers for US clients in terms of CL?
    3. What about data feed provider?
    4. What are the impact of news, rollover dates, and anything else specific for CL? If somebody can recommend some books, articles, threads which cover these in detail I'd be grateful.
  2. As a newbie to CL I would like to find somebody in futures.io (formerly BMT) who does trade CL using Brooks Price Action. I haven't found anybody actively doing this but again I'm new here so please kindly tell me if you know the answer
Thank you so much for your help. Have a nice weekend.

Crude is volatile and very news oriented. I think forex is better for any traders because of low slippage, much smaller tick (pip) sizes, and the idea of trading multipule pairs. This does not make crude bad however.

"A Jedi's strength flows from the force."
-Yoda
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whitestone, new york
 
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patbateman View Post
Crude is volatile and very news oriented. I think forex is better for any traders because of low slippage, much smaller tick (pip) sizes, and the idea of trading multipule pairs. This does not make crude bad however.

Vince Virgil is trading the cl,and is heavily influenced by Al Brooks...Look under CL trader,he has video recaps now,very good

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whitestone, new york
 
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bobarian View Post
Vince Virgil is trading the cl,and is heavily influenced by Al Brooks...Look under CL trader,he has video recaps now,very good

sorry,look under cl trades in elite section

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  #13 (permalink)
Toronto, Canada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
Broker: TD Ameritrade, Dorman/Zenfire
Trading: CL,ES
 
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ctnz View Post
chaching

Crude to a trader is like the attraction of flame to a moth, chances are you will get your wings burned off. Not a market to learn on by a long shot. If you want to learn to climb, don't start with Mt. Everest.

A minimum of a 20 tick stop is required and that's tight but I know people who use a $1 and .50 that is 100 and 50 ticks (That is a $1,000 and $500 stop). You need deep pockets to trade even a single contract. I once lost 76 ticks on crude in one second. Get the idea.

The best trading hours are those that work on your setup. What is best for me and for you is two very different things.

Mirus and zenfire will work fine. The big news is the 10:30EST Wednesday crude oil inventory report.

This is NOT a market to learn on! I suggest you go trade another futures market to get the hang of futures first.

Crude is one mean SOB. You can make good money on crude but chances are you will end up like the moth in the big pile with the other dead moths.

In World War I they learned cavalry charges against machine guns didn't work but only after all of them were killed. Don't make the same mistake.

Sorry if my comments are not positive but trading is not a nicey nice business. There are no do overs and they keep score with real money. On a good note CL loves fresh meat.

Alright, CTNZ...

Don't sugar coat it...Tell it like it really is!

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  #14 (permalink)
Toronto, Canada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT
Broker: TD Ameritrade, Dorman/Zenfire
Trading: CL,ES
 
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bobarian View Post
Vince Virgil is trading the cl,and is heavily influenced by Al Brooks...Look under CL trader,he has video recaps now,very good

Yes Bobarian, this is true. I know the guy is pretty acrid when it comes to speaking, but I like the 1 chart approach...can trade from your Ipad as long as you have a solid connection.

VV

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  #15 (permalink)
los angeles
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: nt
Trading: cl
 
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Posts: 292 since Jan 2012

' I once lost 76 ticks on crude in one second. Get the idea.' heard of stops? unless it jumped it,happened to me once with CL. I do love the close button,but damn I know what you mean.

This week CL fell 100 tics after inventory in maybe 1-2 seconds,if that.


I love the long time frame,keeps me from getting Ventricular fibs!

LOve taking 10 tics with enough cars and calling it a day in 30 minutes early at NY open. My game plan,sitting all day is suicide or maybe not....

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  #16 (permalink)
Toledo, OH
 
 
Posts: 41 since Nov 2012
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Hello,
Good advice given so far overall. I can tell you about money managers with 8 figure accounts that put CL at the end of theit trading preferability scale for many differeent reasons. There is absolutely no reason to want to trade it as a beginner or intermediate. I would also stay from thick markets like ES.
I recommend NQ, YM and TF. That ought to be plenty. You could add the grains like soybean, wheat and corn.
Good luck!

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  #17 (permalink)
Vienna Austria
 
 
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I used to be in the same situation as you, traded Forex mostly until i got really upset by the ridiculously stupid Price action and its slowness. Also im not a huge fan of unregulated markets.

Anyways friends of mine from another forum started to post CL and Index trades on CFD Brokers and the priceaction caught my attention. The GREAT thing about crude is that its so volatile. I know many people don't like this, but if you like to be in and out of trades within minutes and or scalp ticks then crude is the way to go. A 1 Minute chart on Crude will give you so many opportunities to trade .. you can basically do it all day. Which is great if you understand crude and have monitored it for quite a while. Because if you do not absolutely understand EVERY detail of what is happening then you will get .. for the lack of a better term: Raped.

I disagree with some of the posters here in their expressed opinions, you can trade crude with stops as tight as 5-10 ticks. I trade crude with my average stop being 10 ticks and my average takeprofit being 10-15 ticks. But it requires great practice... it really does and if you are new to futures i would definitely recommend you get acquainted with something that isnt as "volatile".

As for the Disaster Scenarios people elaborate here with losing 50 ticks in seconds... well not that i want to step on anyones shoes but you have to be really stupid or have a really large account balance to enter trades during the very specific news announcements when crude moves. I trade Crude from 9-12 and from 14:45-17:00 and then from 18:00-21:00 i avoid inventories and high impact news environments like its the plague.
Either way its very unlikely to loose that many ticks in a surge movement unless you are prepared for it, and if you are able to read PA (crude has very specific movements though) this shouldn't happen.

Either way most people are telling you the right thing (stay away from crude) but for the wrong reasons, if you are a intraday small timeframe trader or scalper then go for it especially if you can take 10-20 tick stops, if you cant stick to slower instruments.

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