Relationship between Minis and CL - Commodities Futures Trading | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Relationship between Minis and CL
Updated: Views / Replies:2,658 / 16
Created: by RM99 Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Relationship between Minis and CL

  #1 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received

Relationship between Minis and CL

Is there a direct volume relationship between minis and CL?

If you're seeking to spread your order out among concurrent instruments, is it effective to take volume/contracts away from CL and put them in minis?

Or is a mini, simply half a CL contract that the broker then pairs and executes a corresponding order on CL?

I guess what I'm saying is that if I'm trying to reduce slippage by reducing order size, would it be effective by simply paying the extra commissions and purchasing 2 minis (for every CL contract) in an effort to spread the load over 2 instruments? I.e. half the order on CL and the other half on minis?

Reply With Quote
 
  #2 (permalink)
Elite Member
Italy (IT)
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: ATAS, R|Trader, NT8
Broker/Data: Rithmic
Favorite Futures: CL, Brent, GC, TF
 
LukeGeniol's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,501 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 408 given, 974 received

QM moves like CL, but has very low volume, you can have some problem to get filled, and its minumun fluctation is 0.025 so 1 tick every 2.5 tick of CL.

Take your Pips, go out and Live.
Luke.
Reply With Quote
 
  #3 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 595 received


I also noticed that if there is a relation between 2 instruments, it tend to change over time. So it might be so for a few weeks to see it disappear for another few weeks.

I know for sure that HFT trade based on one instrument leading the other.

Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received


MetalTrade View Post
I also noticed that if there is a relation between 2 instruments, it tend to change over time. So it might be so for a few weeks to see it disappear for another few weeks.

I know for sure that HFT trade based on one instrument leading the other.

That's what I'm trying to work out.

If you're getting too much slippage because your order sizes are getting too large to accomodate volume at certain times, would it help to move some of the order volume to minis?

What I'm afraid of is that an order of 2 minis would still end up resulting in a single order on CL, at which point it wouldn't be beneficial to split them, it would simply be better to pay less commissions with the full order on CL.

Reply With Quote
 
  #5 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 595 received

I would be surprised if somebody is on bigmike that :

* moves the market in the direction he planned
* doesn't get fills on his volume.

I myself did so far a 100 car trade, it got filled instantly.

:-)

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to MetalTrade for this post:
 
  #6 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received


MetalTrade View Post
I would be surprised if somebody is on bigmike that :

* moves the market in the direction he planned
* doesn't get fills on his volume.

I myself did so far a 100 car trade, it got filled instantly.

:-)

At what time? Yeah, I could put in a 500 car trade during certain conditions that would fill easily.

I'm talking about off peak hours and the volume action associated where even 2 or 3 contracts gets enough slippage to make me wonder if it's not better to buy 1 CL contract and 2 minis or just continue with 2 contracts on CL.

By the way, I'm not using limit orders, I'm using market orders (for now) for simplicity, limit orders present all sorts of challenges with automated systems.

Reply With Quote
 
  #7 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 595 received

RM99, I do frequently 5 or 10 orders on the CL without a problem.

Reply With Quote
 
  #8 (permalink)
Elite Member
La Jolla, CA
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Sierra Chart, X_Trader Pro, OptionsCity
Broker/Data: Advantage, Trading Technologies, OptionsCity, IQ Feed
Favorite Futures: CL, NG
 
Private Banker's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,040 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 1,713 given, 3,759 received


RM99 View Post
At what time? Yeah, I could put in a 500 car trade during certain conditions that would fill easily.

I'm talking about off peak hours and the volume action associated where even 2 or 3 contracts gets enough slippage to make me wonder if it's not better to buy 1 CL contract and 2 minis or just continue with 2 contracts on CL.

By the way, I'm not using limit orders, I'm using market orders (for now) for simplicity, limit orders present all sorts of challenges with automated systems.

What time are you referring to when you say off peak hours? I never trade after RTH for this very reason, the spreads are typically 2 - 4 ticks wide on average and market orders are going to get fills consistent with those spreads. If you watch QM after hours, you'll see the DoM has a little more volume showing on it.

I would venture to say QM is quite different then CL in that the number sequences are different. For example, you enter a market order on QM which fills at 112.075 while watching CL. Your trigger price on CL is 112.05. You're already down 2 - 3 ticks essentially not to mention QM often has a 1 -2 tick spread. If, the market pulls back and you take some heat, the chances of your stop getting hit (not sure what you would use) are much greater. Of course you can trade QM successfully but I view it as more of a hedge vehicle than an outright traditional trading instrument.

I'm a firm believer in trading the CL contract. 1 CL contract vs 2 QM contracts gives you the following advantages:
1. Your commissions are obviously going to be lower.
2. You have more wiggle room to let your trade work out (more tick room).
3. During RTH, CL is far more efficient on fills than QM. This goes for stop orders as well. I would imagine the same applies for the European Session.

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
PB

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Private Banker for this post:
 
  #9 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not sure everyone is grasping the question.

I understand the advantages of CL over minis. I don't trade minis.

I understand that you can trade a large order volume on CL (during certain time intervals).

The problem is A) I'm using market orders, not limit orders, so slippage is more a factor for me and

B) I'm not liking the slippage I'm seeing during some off peak hours and

C) My particular strategies would be pretty limited if I stick to only high volume times.

I'm not saturated yet, but I'm trying to anticipate it and begin the process of moving some volume into some concurrent/similar instruments.

I'm going to research what I need to start trading Brent and I was asking if there's a direct relationship between minis and CL.

In essence, does an order on minis (2 contracts) translate into a delayed order on CL. If that's the case, then spreading the volume across the 2 makes no sense whatsoever. If they're independent, then at some point, the slippage on CL (off hours) MAY be more taxing than the additional commissions of taking some of that load and putting it into minis.

I know all about how minis operate, my roommate trades them from time to time. I would not be trading minis based off a CL chart or metrics. I'd be trading minis based off the same strategy concepts on mini charts.

What I don't want is to take some load and move over to minis (to avoid slippage on CL) just to find out that an order (2 mini contracts) has the same effect on WTI on the NYMEX as an order of CL.

In essence, if I was going to trade 4 contracts of CL during off hours and eat 4 or 5 ticks of market movement, the thought was to take half (or some) of that and use the same strategy on minis to reduce the slippage during off hours.

I guess the simplest answer is to not trade during off hours....and I got that. But sometimes it's not that simple. I'm seeking less intrusive solutions....if it's an untenable option (moving volume to another instrument) then I'll be forced to re-examine my strategy timelines, but at least I'll know I've explored all options.

Reply With Quote
 
  #10 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 595 received


What broker are you using ?

I trade with deepdiscounttrading who trades true crossland and it's the lowest slippage I have ever seen.

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > > Relationship between Minis and CL

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trade e-minis on quadruple witching days? essiar Emini Index Futures Trading 2 June 16th, 2011 07:54 PM
CL Breakout tderrick Commodities Futures Trading 2 October 6th, 2010 01:08 PM
CL and TF Michael.H The Elite Circle 3 July 25th, 2010 05:54 PM
Problem with roll-over of CL 06-10 to CL 07-10 jharthun Reviews of Brokers and Data Feeds 15 June 13th, 2010 03:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:55 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-13 in 0.17 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.90.92.204