NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





is it really worth it?


Discussion in Commodities

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one Fat Tails with 28 posts (46 thanks)
    2. looks_two Silvester17 with 26 posts (12 thanks)
    3. looks_3 RM99 with 14 posts (7 thanks)
    4. looks_4 sysot1t with 6 posts (0 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one Fat Tails with 1.6 thanks per post
    2. looks_two andy2001 with 1.5 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 Silvester17 with 0.5 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 RM99 with 0.5 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 27,320 views
    2. thumb_up 81 thanks given
    3. group 12 followers
    1. forum 99 posts
    2. attach_file 3 attachments




 
Search this Thread

is it really worth it?

  #61 (permalink)
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 Fat Tails 
Berlin, Europe
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Keyboard
Posts: 9,888 since Mar 2010
Thanks Given: 4,242
Thanks Received: 27,103


Silvester17 View Post
now let me ask you this: how many speculators do you think have an interest in a physical delivery? my guess is less than 10%, to be very conservative. so I'm fairly certain the same problem would occur if the delivery place would be new york, london or on the moon.

but I do agree about the errors of regulators. they need to get rid of some speculators in order to have a healthy market again.

The so called speculators are mainly long only index fonds, as your own contribution clearly showed. Please notice that behind those funds are individual investors. For these it makes absolutely sense to invest in such funds:

-> irresponsible policies have led to an exponential increase in government debt, which for sure will first lead to inflation, then to higher interest rates, which are required to control inflation

-> given this perspective and the supply of liquidity a careful investor can neither invest into government bonds nor stocks, which will be negatively affected by higher interest rates

-> my home is heated with heating oil, my car uses gasoline, so I understand that many individual investors select to invest into commodities, because tomorrow they will have to buy their heating oil and gasoline at higher prices

Of course they do not want to take delivery. But they may want to hedge their own exposure to inflation via investment into a long only index fund. The high rolling cost induced by the Cushing Contango penalizes those individual investors. Just compare the return of the USO fund with the evolution of real prices of WTI.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
Quant vue
Trading Reviews and Vendors
MC PL editor upgrade
MultiCharts
Trade idea based off three indicators.
Traders Hideout
NT7 Indicator Script Troubleshooting - Camarilla Pivots
NinjaTrader
REcommedations for programming help
Sierra Chart
 
  #62 (permalink)
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 Silvester17 
Columbus, OH
Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
Posts: 3,603 since Aug 2009
Thanks Given: 5,139
Thanks Received: 11,527


Fat Tails View Post
The so called speculators are mainly long only index fonds, as your own contribution clearly showed. Please notice that behind those funds are individual investors. For these it makes absolutely sense to invest in such funds:

-> irresponsible policies have led to an exponential increase in government debt, which for sure will first lead to inflation, then to higher interest rates, which are required to control inflation

-> given this perspective and the supply of liquidity a careful investor can neither invest into government bonds or stocks, which will be negatively affected by higher interest rates

-> my home is heated with heating oil, my car uses gasoline, so I understand that many individual investors select to invest into commodities, because tomorrow they will have to buy their heating oil and gasoline at higher prices

Of course they do not want to take delivery. But they may want to hedge their own exposure to inflation via investment into a long only index fund. The high rolling cost induced by the Cushing Contango penalizes those individual investors. Just compare the return of the USO fund with the evolution of real prices of WTI.

yes I do agree that the rollover issues are mainly caused by those funds. and I do understand the urge for some people to hedge the higher heating bill or the higher cost at the gas pump. but does it serve the purpose? not really, because you're trying to compensate your higher energy costs by buying (which will put more pressure on the underlying ) the exact same thing that is causing the problem in the first place.

and of course I understand that people want to invest in something resistant to inflation. but there are other ways to do that. you could always buy funds or stocks that are involved in the oil or gas industry. might be more work involved, but on the other hand you could eliminate some rather high management fees.

either way, I do believe the biggest part of the daily volume is created by "pure speculators" and not by funds.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 Fat Tails 
Berlin, Europe
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Keyboard
Posts: 9,888 since Mar 2010
Thanks Given: 4,242
Thanks Received: 27,103



Silvester17 View Post
either way, I do believe the biggest part of the daily volume is created by "pure speculators" and not by funds.

Maybe, but those intraday speculators close out their long and short positions every day, so unlike long only index funds they are not causing any trouble, as they do not hold large positions, which they need to roll.

If you want to discuss the issue seriously you need to have a look at the COT figures as well. The

The last COT report from March 22 shows the following positions for Light Sweet Crude

Commercials: Long 193,560 - Short 429,057
Swap Dealers: Long 219,886 - Short 288,349 - Spreading 242,571
Managed Money: Long 281,134 - Short 28,916 - Spreading 167,819
Other Reportables: Long 101,606 - Short 100,096 - 190,251
Non-Reportables: Long 106,807 - Short 56,555

Let us have a look, who is net long and who is net short:

The commercials are net short 235,497 contracts.
The swap dealers are net short 68,463 contracts.
Managed money is net long 252,218 contracts.
Small traders are net long 50,252 contracts.

This is a typical situation. Producers are structurally short, as they need speculators to take the opposite side of their trade. I do not know, why the swap dealers are short, this would require further analysis.

Oil prices are quite high now, so the producers are happy to sell forward, which explains their short position. Producers behave anticyclical, they dampen price swings. Managed money traditional uses trend following strategies. So their are currently long. Prices will only drop, when they rush to the extis. So far this is nothing unusual. To further interpret the figures, we need to know, whether the current positions of the four groups are currently different from their relative average.

The COT reports were recently changed, they now include figures for swap dealers and managed money. which makes it difficult to compare the current COT reports to the old format.

The COT report can be found here:

CFTC Commitments of Traders Long Report - Petroleum (Futures Only)

Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 Silvester17 
Columbus, OH
Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
Posts: 3,603 since Aug 2009
Thanks Given: 5,139
Thanks Received: 11,527


Fat Tails View Post
Maybe, but those intraday speculators close out their long and short positions every day, so unlike long only index funds they are not causing any trouble, as they do not hold large positions, which they need to roll.

yes like I said in my previous post, the rollover issues are probably caused by those funds. and yes, intraday speculators are not creating any rollover problems.

btw by "pure speculators", I didn't mean only intraday traders.

and thanks for the cot report. I actually do look at them regularly. well maybe not crude, but the financials.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #65 (permalink)
jlancaster
Los Angeles, California
 
Posts: 34 since Mar 2011
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 7


Silvester17 View Post
From an oil shortage can therefore be no question at all. Why then the price rises to new highs every day?

Speculators like myself are to blame. When the news of the Libyan civil war broke I immediately bought oil. Many others did the same. The 2.2% figure is really not that high and not really worth the $15 premium. But with so many traders out there blindly trading the contracts what's one to do?

Reply With Quote
  #66 (permalink)
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 Silvester17 
Columbus, OH
Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
Posts: 3,603 since Aug 2009
Thanks Given: 5,139
Thanks Received: 11,527

so here's my proposal to the U.S. Government. but should add, it wouldn't be the first time they don't listen to me.

start shorting crude oil. a good price target would be around $70.00 a barrel. since crude has little or nothing to do with fundamentals, that should be doable without any major issues. and then below $70.00 you start covering your shorts and above $70.00 you sell again.

not only would we see lower prices for everything that needs oil, it would also take off a lot of pressure on inflation in general. and not to forget a significant reduce of the U.S. debts.

and everybody would live happily ever after

Started this thread Reply With Quote
  #67 (permalink)
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 Fat Tails 
Berlin, Europe
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Keyboard
Posts: 9,888 since Mar 2010
Thanks Given: 4,242
Thanks Received: 27,103


Silvester17 View Post
so here's my proposal to the U.S. Government. but should add, it wouldn't be the first time they don't listen to me.

start shorting crude oil. a good price target would be around $70.00 a barrel. since crude has little or nothing to do with fundamentals, that should be doable without any major issues. and then below $70.00 you start covering your shorts and above $70.00 you sell again.

not only would we see lower prices for everything that needs oil, it would also take off a lot of pressure on inflation in general. and not to forget a significant reduce of the U.S. debts.

and everybody would live happily ever after

If the US government starts shorting crude this will increase the exposure of the US to crude price fluctuation. When crude prices rise this will have a negative impact on the US trade balance and - taking into account the short position - the federal budget as well. So it increases dependency from crude prices.

It also means the end of free markets, if governments try to manipulate them.

There is also a risk that speculators will drive prices up, until the US government finally abandons their short position. If their is one big trader trying to corner the market, the vultures are watching and waiting until that big traders has to liquidate. This is what killed LTCM and Amaranth, as the exits were already crowded when they had to liquidate.

Inflation is not a result of rising oil prices, but of

- overconsumption
- recklessness and selfishness
- failed monetary policies that have flooded the whole world with US dollars

The government just needs to stop printing money, and the oil price will decline.

Reply With Quote
  #68 (permalink)
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 Silvester17 
Columbus, OH
Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
Posts: 3,603 since Aug 2009
Thanks Given: 5,139
Thanks Received: 11,527


Fat Tails View Post
If the US government starts shorting crude this will increase the exposure of the US to crude price fluctuation. When crude prices rise this will have a negative impact on the US trade balance and - taking into account the short position - the federal budget as well. So it increases dependency from crude prices.

It also means the end of free markets, if governments try to manipulate them.

There is also a risk that speculators will drive prices up, until the US government finally abandons their short position. If their is one big trader trying to corner the market, the vultures are watching and waiting until that big traders has to liquidate. This is what killed LTCM and Amaranth, as the exits were already crowded when they had to liquidate.

Inflation is not a result of rising oil prices, but of

- overconsumption
- recklessness and selfishness
- failed monetary policies that have flooded the whole world with US dollars

The government just needs to stop printing money, and the oil price will decline.

- governments intervene in currency markets.

- rising oil prices have a big impact on inflation. simple example is the higher cost of bread and milk.

- the U.S. Government should be able to hold the breath longer than a LTCM. and the more speculators try to drive prices up with no success, the faster it will come down because at one point they'll have to close their long positions (they can't print money like others).

Started this thread Reply With Quote
  #69 (permalink)
 
Fat Tails's Avatar
 Fat Tails 
Berlin, Europe
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader, MultiCharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Keyboard
Posts: 9,888 since Mar 2010
Thanks Given: 4,242
Thanks Received: 27,103


Silvester17 View Post
- governments intervene in currency markets.

Yeah, I remember that intervention from the Bank of England, and the other one from the Thai Central Bank, or whatever it is called.


Silvester17 View Post
- rising oil prices have a big impact on inflation. simple example is the higher cost of bread and milk.

But what caused the oil price to rise?


Silvester17 View Post
- the U.S. Government should be able to hold the breath longer than a LTCM.

I am not sure about this. If the U.S government prints more money, oil prices will further rise and this will hurt the short crude position.

Reply With Quote
  #70 (permalink)
 
Silvester17's Avatar
 Silvester17 
Columbus, OH
Market Wizard
 
Experience: None
Platform: NT 8, TOS
Trading: ES
Posts: 3,603 since Aug 2009
Thanks Given: 5,139
Thanks Received: 11,527



Fat Tails View Post
But what caused the oil price to rise?



now we're back to the speculators.

Started this thread Reply With Quote




Last Updated on February 21, 2012


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts